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2007-12-10 22:20:29
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6999

I just wish people would object to things and call them torture before it is "hip" and popular to do so.

-----------------------

With one known exception, no formal objections were raised by the lawmakers briefed about the harsh methods during the two years in which waterboarding was employed, 2002 and 2003, said Democrats and Republicans with direct knowledge of the matter. The Democratic lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi, Rep. Jane Harman of California, and Sens. Bob Graham of Florida and John D. Rockefeller IV of West Virginia;

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http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/dec/09 … ationworld
2007-12-10 23:13:26
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6999

Dilbert_X wrote:

I don't suppose any of the Hitler govt raised objections to the jews being incinerated.
It was only after the war when it became unfashionable the Germans started to think about it.
oh for fucks sake dude...
2007-12-11 00:31:06
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7079|Cologne, Germany

well, it seems human rights only matter when the public knows they are been skullfucked. As long as no one knows, it's all good...
To be honest, I find it disturbing that USA lawmakers were given briefings on human rights violations by US federal authorities, and did nothing to stop it. I mean, so often the US claim the moral high ground on these issues, and call others out for human rights violations.

Double standard ftl...
2007-12-11 00:32:24
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7079|Cologne, Germany

Dilbert_X wrote:

I don't suppose any of the Hitler govt raised objections to the jews being incinerated.
It was only after the war when it became unfashionable the Germans started to think about it.
pushing the envelope, are we, dilbert ? Even I think that was out of line, and I am german...
2007-12-11 00:47:02
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6793
Whoever believes waterboarding is not torture is a fucking retard.

Here's an illustration of it from a Cambodian prison.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/Waterboard3-small.jpg

Simulated drowning. Way to go America, how far you've come - 'leader of the free world'. Washington would be proud.

If it had been discovered that Americans were undergoing such treatment abroad the cries of derision would be deafening.

PS If I was subjected to that and was innocent I'd just spout whatever bullshit I thought the torturer wanted to hear just to fucking make it stop - how useful the intelligence you garner must be....

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-12-11 00:52:06)

2007-12-11 01:38:41
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6853|do not disturb

People were in the mindset that terrorists were terrorists when caught, not prisoners of war after 9 11. We were looking to destroy them, not to be hospitable when interrogating them. Both the dems and reps were supportive of going after Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, like the huge majority in America, so it seems being a little rough with prisoners is ok to get the job done as long as it stays out of the public. Only when things get messy and everything starts to become public do the dems start to condemn the bush administration and republicans. It just shows you how incompetent and hypocritical both parties really are. Purely politics as usual on capitol hill.

CameronPoe wrote:

Whoever believes waterboarding is not torture is a fucking retard.

Here's an illustration of it from a Cambodian prison.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e … -small.jpg

Simulated drowning. Way to go America, how far you've come - 'leader of the free world'. Washington would be proud.

If it had been discovered that Americans were undergoing such treatment abroad the cries of derision would be deafening.

PS If I was subjected to that and was innocent I'd just spout whatever bullshit I thought the torturer wanted to hear just to fucking make it stop - how useful the intelligence you garner must be....
True, people will say anything to make the pain/discomfort stop, but even if they do give some reliable information (assuming they are not innocent and know something), it is usually pointless if the information you are trying to extract is time sensitive, and not everyone breaks over night. That is assuming they do tell you truth instead of just saying whatever to end being tortured.

Last edited by Phrozenbot (2007-12-11 01:39:24)

2007-12-11 01:50:08
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6649|'Murka

That is an excerpt from a longer article. In the actual article that ran in the Post, it also explained that waterboarding was done on three (that's 3) people between 2002 and 2003. One was Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, one was Abu Zubayda (sp?), and the other one was not named. The article went on to say that waterboarding was abolished in 2005 (even though it hadn't been used since 2003, at the latest).

And I agree with Phrozenbot on at least one item: this just goes to show the utter hypocrisy of the ones screaming for blood over this in our government (though that's not really news to anyone).

As to the effectiveness? Well, the intel gained from KSM and Zubayda led to several other roll-ups and other counterterrorist op successes. Those were laid out before anyone knew publicly that those two specifically had been waterboarded.

Edit: Well, lookie here.

Last edited by FEOS (2007-12-11 03:21:14)

“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2007-12-11 04:04:48
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6793

FEOS wrote:

That is an excerpt from a longer article. In the actual article that ran in the Post, it also explained that waterboarding was done on three (that's 3) people between 2002 and 2003. One was Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, one was Abu Zubayda (sp?), and the other one was not named. The article went on to say that waterboarding was abolished in 2005 (even though it hadn't been used since 2003, at the latest).

And I agree with Phrozenbot on at least one item: this just goes to show the utter hypocrisy of the ones screaming for blood over this in our government (though that's not really news to anyone).

As to the effectiveness? Well, the intel gained from KSM and Zubayda led to several other roll-ups and other counterterrorist op successes. Those were laid out before anyone knew publicly that those two specifically had been waterboarded.

Edit: Well, lookie here.
Wow FEOS - I thought you were one of the more principled right winger/centre-rightists. For me it would be irrelevant if torture gleaned useful information. Torture is wrong in the civilised world. No ifs and no buts. That's without even mentioning the potential that completely innocent people have been tortured. This is not the 'good guy' light America has always sought to portray itself in.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-12-11 04:05:31)

2007-12-11 04:08:18
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6912|Canberra, AUS
Sooooooo.... it's OK for you but not anyone else?

Leader of freedom... sure.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2007-12-11 04:11:26
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6912|Canberra, AUS

CameronPoe wrote:

FEOS wrote:

That is an excerpt from a longer article. In the actual article that ran in the Post, it also explained that waterboarding was done on three (that's 3) people between 2002 and 2003. One was Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, one was Abu Zubayda (sp?), and the other one was not named. The article went on to say that waterboarding was abolished in 2005 (even though it hadn't been used since 2003, at the latest).

And I agree with Phrozenbot on at least one item: this just goes to show the utter hypocrisy of the ones screaming for blood over this in our government (though that's not really news to anyone).

As to the effectiveness? Well, the intel gained from KSM and Zubayda led to several other roll-ups and other counterterrorist op successes. Those were laid out before anyone knew publicly that those two specifically had been waterboarded.

Edit: Well, lookie here.
Wow FEOS - I thought you were one of the more principled right winger/centre-rightists. For me it would be irrelevant if torture gleaned useful information. Torture is wrong in the civilised world. No ifs and no buts. That's without even mentioning the potential that completely innocent people have been tortured. This is not the 'good guy' light America has always sought to portray itself in.
That's one argument. The other is basically this... torture does NOT gain useful information. It is inherently unreliable. I've said it several times, and i've heard prominent academics AND government officials (in our government, anyway) say it again and again, torture is unreliable because people will say anything to stop physical pain. If someone tells you that they are the President of Suriname under torture (which they may!), is that believable? In the end, the only way to get information from torture is to verify that information from other sources. But that negates the whole need for torture in the first place!
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2007-12-11 04:29:44
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6853|do not disturb

FEOS wrote:

That is an excerpt from a longer article. In the actual article that ran in the Post, it also explained that waterboarding was done on three (that's 3) people between 2002 and 2003. One was Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, one was Abu Zubayda (sp?), and the other one was not named. The article went on to say that waterboarding was abolished in 2005 (even though it hadn't been used since 2003, at the latest).

And I agree with Phrozenbot on at least one item: this just goes to show the utter hypocrisy of the ones screaming for blood over this in our government (though that's not really news to anyone).

As to the effectiveness? Well, the intel gained from KSM and Zubayda led to several other roll-ups and other counterterrorist op successes. Those were laid out before anyone knew publicly that those two specifically had been waterboarded.

Edit: Well, lookie here.
Fair enough, but I don't like the idea of torturing some suspect and in the end finding out they are innocent. Torture doesn't always work when extracting information, but what is for sure is it often has a lot of serious physical, emotional, and mental problems that can sadly last for years. Something that really bothers me.
2007-12-11 04:38:27
klassekock
Proud Born Loser
+68|6824|Sweden
Oh for the love of christ!!

We live in the year 2007 and not the middle ages. If you yanks are so desprate to get information use truth drugs or something, not torture. if you keep this shit up the whole world is going to hate the U.S. 

By the way, arent you supposed to be the good guys????
2007-12-11 04:47:23
UK|Hooligan
Seriously, fuck off.
+103|6926|"The Empire"
A little torture never hurt anyone.
2007-12-11 04:59:49
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6922|United States of America
Well I didn't quite understand how the method works so I take a quick jaunt over to Wikipedia and:
"On November 5, 2007, The Wall Street Journal reported that its "sources confirm... that the CIA has only used this interrogation method against three terrorist detainees and not since 2003."[45]"

Going along with this discussion it seems that everyone and their brother detained at Guantanamo is getting this done. I'm still not condoning it, agreeing with my boy McCain, but what can be done about it right now if it's not being used? ....Yes, call it illegal, ban it... that jazz.
2007-12-11 07:20:29
PureFodder
Member
+225|6523
Here is a list of possible interrogation techniques that can be used on prisoners. Do you think it is right or wrong for the U.S. government to use them on prisoners suspected of having information about possible terrorist attacks against the United States?

E. Strapping prisoners on boards and forcing their heads underwater until they think they are drowning

Right           16%
Wrong         82%
No opinion     2%

Gallup poll 2005 Jan 7-9.

So does mass public opinion matter in a democracy?
2007-12-11 07:50:05
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6995|Argentina
So, you open a thread to complain about interrogation methods, waterboarding, but you blame the Dems, not GWB.  Yeah, I see you said Democrats and Republicans, but you only mention Dems.
2007-12-11 08:17:21
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6683|The Land of Scott Walker
The article in the Post stated it was banned in 2005, so yes public opinion does matter, Purefodder.  It is effective, though, because info was gained from the 3 upon which it was used that resulted in counterterrorist success. 

Do you people actually think that the work the CIA does could actually be squeaky clean and still be effective?  Should we ban every interrogation method that has become public because it "puts the prison under stress"?  Well, hello, interrogation isn't meant to be happy fun time!  Is sleep deprivation, being stuck in a cold room, or psychological techniques torture too?  They put the prisoner under mental stress after all.  Should they be banned also?  I guess we need to ban interrogation all together just to be sure!  Then guess what, you stupid Eurobrats on your high horse would criticise the US the instant we fail to prevent an attack.  Do you think your country doesn't use techniques that stress a prisoner when they're interrogating?  Hmmm?  Well, psychological stress techinques are ok, you say.  Well then were is the line drawn?  What is considered torture and what is considered acceptable?  None of us know!  Our job is not counterterrorism, for god's sake!  Yet we all sit here at our keyboards sipping our tea and coffee like we know what's necessary and what's ok and what's not when it comes to protecting the US! 

Seriously, how are the people whose job it is to protect our nation supposed to get the job done and get information?  How?  Can any of us really enlighten the CIA an tell them how to do their job?  I'm sure they're on the edge of their seat waiting for our help.  There are things that go on in the cloak and dagger world that are far beyond waterboarding that I'm sure would make our hair stand on end if we knew about it.

Last edited by Stingray24 (2007-12-11 08:31:01)

2007-12-11 08:41:30
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6793

Stingray24 wrote:

The article in the Post stated it was banned in 2005, so yes public opinion does matter, Purefodder.  It is effective, though, because info was gained from the 3 upon which it was used that resulted in counterterrorist success.
Don't make me laugh. You can be dead sure it was used on far more than those 3.

Stingray24 wrote:

Do you people actually think that the work the CIA does could actually be squeaky clean and still be effective?
If you want to be genuinely 'just and righteous' it should be. If you want to be 'the leader of the free world' and not draw laughter when you say it then it should be. Effectiveness should matter not an issue of civility/morality/depravity like this. TORTURE IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE - it would be quite unchristian of you to think otherwise.

Stingray24 wrote:

Should we ban every interrogation method that has become public because it "puts the prison under stress"?
Interrogation is fine - violent torture-based interrogation isn't, in the interest of principles and civility.

Stingray24 wrote:

Well, hello, interrogation isn't meant to be happy fun time!  Is sleep deprivation, being stuck in a cold room, or psychological techniques torture too?  They put the prisoner under mental stress after all.  Should they be banned also?
I guess you didn't catch the part where CIA operatives conceded that the practice of waterboarding was in fact torture, which is patently obviously to even the most imbecilic cretin. The other measures you speak of? Up for debate.

Stingray24 wrote:

I guess we need to ban interrogation all together just to be sure!  Then guess what, you stupid Eurobrats on your high horse would criticise the US the instant we fail to prevent an attack.
If you hadn't noticed it has mainly been the Brits, the French and the Germans who have been thwarting attacks through intelligence operations. No such attack or attempted attack has yet been mounted against USA since those US citizen muslim plotters were ratted out some time ago.

Stingray24 wrote:

Do you think your country doesn't use techniques that stress a prisoner when they're interrogating?  Hmmm?  Well, psychological stress techinques are ok, you say.
Yes pscyhological measures are okay within reasonable boundaries of civility/morality/depravity.

Stingray24 wrote:

Well then were is the line drawn?
The nearside of waterboarding.

Stingray24 wrote:

What is considered torture and what is considered acceptable?  None of us know!  Our job is not counterterrorism, for god's sake!  Yet we all sit here at our keyboards sipping our tea and coffee like we know what's necessary and what's ok and what's not when it comes to protecting the US!
Knowing whether a practice is right or wrong has nothing to do with 'counter-terrorism specialists' - it has to do with innately realise when you are causing another human being, a potentially innocent one at that, undue and heinous suffering. It is quite obvious to all those of decent mind. Ask John McCain - he'll tell you about torture.

Stingray24 wrote:

Seriously, how are the people whose job it is to protect our nation supposed to get the job done and get information?  How?  Can any of us really enlighten the CIA an tell them how to do their job?  I'm sure they're on the edge of their seat waiting for our help.  There are things that go on in the cloak and dagger world that are far beyond waterboarding that I'm sure would make our hair stand on end if we knew about it.
You need to seriously revise your faith in Christ because he doesn't teach man about condoning torture, that is for fucking sure.
2007-12-11 08:57:11
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6683|The Land of Scott Walker
If you'd re-read my post you should notice that I'm trying to do is point out that what is considered torture it is part of the world the CIA functions in.  I'm also pointing out that the definition of torture varies depending on who you ask.  All interrogation could likely be desribed as some form of torture.  Most "normal" people would probably be scarred for life after having gone through even "acceptable" interrogation.  It's also how things work.  If you believe anything different, you're incredibly niave.  Go give the Brits, Germans, and French the 3rd degree about their intelligence operations for the sake of consistency since that seems to be what you're worried about. 

I have nothing else to say to you since you have to resort to questioning my commitment to my chosen faith.  Step off and go insult someone else with whom you disagree with.  Good day, sir.
2007-12-11 09:05:19
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6884
Crybabies, they don't actually drown them. It's like prison hazing.
2007-12-11 09:05:58
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6793

Stingray24 wrote:

If you'd re-read my post you should notice that I'm trying to do is point out that what is considered torture it is part of the world the CIA functions in.  I'm also pointing out that the definition of torture varies depending on who you ask.  All interrogation could likely be desribed as some form of torture.  Most "normal" people would probably be scarred for life after having gone through even "acceptable" interrogation.  It's also how things work.  If you believe anything different, you're incredibly niave.  Go give the Brits, Germans, and French the 3rd degree about their intelligence operations for the sake of consistency since that seems to be what you're worried about. 

I have nothing else to say to you since you have to resort to questioning my commitment to my chosen faith.  Step off and go insult someone else with whom you disagree with.  Good day, sir.
I'm pointing out the fact that waterboarding is patently obviously immoral, unjust and unrighteous. It is distinctly beyond the undefined boundary that marks where interrogation ends and torture begins. You still allude, not explicitly I grant you, that torture is somehow acceptable: you can correct me if I'm wrong. I ask you: is waterboarding, in your eyes, acceptable? For me subjecting any detainee to physical violence is wrong. Psychological is another matter and it depends on the practice. Waterboarding seems to me to be both physically and mentally degrading to an unacceptable level.

If the Brits, Germans and French (and the Brits did in quite horrific manner during 'The Troubles') partake of such acts then they must be decried as hypocritical and immoral also. It's not ok to strangle a cat or kick a dog in the backside just because your friends do it.

I only commented on your faith because you often post about it in religious threads. Having been raised as a Catholic I see the practice of waterboarding as incompatible with what I was taught. I just gathered, given the tone of your posts, that you thought otherwise. The very fact that the CIA eventually banned the practice is proof enough that it was unacceptable.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-12-11 09:11:17)

2007-12-11 09:32:33
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6884

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm pointing out the fact that waterboarding is patently obviously immoral, unjust and unrighteous. It is distinctly beyond the undefined boundary that marks where interrogation ends and torture begins. You still allude, not explicitly I grant you, that torture is somehow acceptable: you can correct me if I'm wrong. I ask you: is waterboarding, in your eyes, acceptable? For me subjecting any detainee to physical violence is wrong. Psychological is another matter and it depends on the practice. Waterboarding seems to me to be both physically and mentally degrading to an unacceptable level.
Waterboarding is 100% psychological torture. Holding your breath under water is something little kids do for fun. The whole point of waterboarding is to make them think they are going to drown, not to actually drown them.
2007-12-11 09:35:42
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6999

Spark wrote:

Sooooooo.... it's OK for you but not anyone else?

Leader of freedom... sure.
Will you people fucking stop with that.  God that is annoying.  You sound like Al-Q when you say that.  Grow up.
2007-12-11 09:36:49
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6793

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I'm pointing out the fact that waterboarding is patently obviously immoral, unjust and unrighteous. It is distinctly beyond the undefined boundary that marks where interrogation ends and torture begins. You still allude, not explicitly I grant you, that torture is somehow acceptable: you can correct me if I'm wrong. I ask you: is waterboarding, in your eyes, acceptable? For me subjecting any detainee to physical violence is wrong. Psychological is another matter and it depends on the practice. Waterboarding seems to me to be both physically and mentally degrading to an unacceptable level.
Waterboarding is 100% psychological torture. Holding your breath under water is something little kids do for fun. The whole point of waterboarding is to make them think they are going to drown, not to actually drown them.
It doesn't look 100% psychological, strapped to a board and having your ability to breathe curtailed - it's kind of like saying 'I strangled him, but not so much that he would die'. Regardless it's wrong on the psychological front anyway. Try pinning an image of that to your flag and see how much respect your country earns.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-12-11 09:37:37)

2007-12-11 09:37:37
TeamOrange
Don't be that guy
+84|6549

Dilbert_X wrote:

So why was waterboarding abolished if its perfectly OK?
The CIA has plenty of other torture techniques besides waterboarding which it is still using and are significantly more damaging - sometimes fatal.

You don't get many chances to do the right thing in life.
Its disgusting no-one was prepared to stand up and be counted at the time, I agree  they are all hypocrites and FOS.
Torturing people is the first step on the slope to Nazism which the US is already some way down.
US has already dabbled in fascism and made it out ok; such as the red scare and McCarthyism. I believe that if it goes any feather then we will make it out again.

 

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