Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6903|132 and Bush

I found this story at Hotair.
Announced on Aug 3, the US Department of Justice has decided to decertify Pinnacle Inc’s Dragon Skin personal body armor.

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The Department of Justice (DOJ), Office of Justice Programs (OJP) announced today that it has determined that the Pinnacle Armor, Inc. bulletproof vest model SOV 2000.1/MIL3AF01, is not in compliance with the requirements of OJP’s National Institute of Justice (NIJ) voluntary compliance testing program for bullet-resistant body armor. Effective immediately, this body armor model will be removed from the NIJ list of bullet-resistant body armor models that satisfy its requirements. Pinnacle Armor, Inc. is the maker of “dragon skin” body armor.

    NIJ, OJP’s research, development, and evaluation component, has reviewed evidence provided by the body armor manufacturer and has determined that the evidence is insufficient to demonstrate that the body armor model will maintain its ballistic performance over its six-year declared warranty period.

This is a severe blow to Pinnacle’s campaign to have Dragon Skin fielded by the US Army and put into service in combat. Pinnacle had previously used NIJ certification as evidence that Dragon Skin is of sufficient quality to be used in combat. That line of argument is now taken away. For the record, NIJ certification standards and Army certification standards are not identical, so that line of argument was always a bit of a red herring.

https://i12.tinypic.com/6bjqkh2.jpg

Pinnacle created a disinformation campaign designed to tout Dragon Skin and undermine confidence in the Army’s honesty and its ability to conduct fair and open laboratory tests. That campaign included getting coverage favorable to Dragon Skin on not only NBC, but on at least two other networks, the Military Network and the History Channel, on the shows Future Weapons and Mail Call respectively. Both shows attract pro-military audiences, and both shows tested Dragon Skin and touted its capabilities. Here are clips from both shows.






In both of these stories, as in NBC’s story, it’s clear that Pinnacle is actually controlling the “tests” shown. I put “tests” in scare quotes because that’s what you’re seeing, not actual, fair and Army grade tests, but “tests.” The evidence for Pinnacle’s control is mainly in the Mail Call segment, as host R. Lee Ermey thanks Pinnacle for allowing Mail Call to come to the company’s premises and see Dragon Skin in action. Note the range, the initial test shooter, and the presence of Pinnacle CEO Murray Neal in both the Mail Call and Future Weapons segments. Pinnacle was in control of both tests the whole time. Note also that in both segments, the test shots are fired exclusively from the front, not the rear or sides.

That’s not how the Army tests body armor, though. The Army puts body armor through testing that includes temperature extremes, contact with common fluids like motor oil, and test shots fired from multiple angles, as that’s more realistic than mere front-only test shots. The NBC story claims to have commissioned “independent, side-by-side” tests that show Dragon Skin to be superior to Interceptor, but watch the NBC story closely and you’ll see that, once again, you’re only shown frontal shots into the armor. As NBC didn’t divulge the details of its testing, viewers have no way of knowing whether its “independent, side-by-side” tests are valid or not. That NBC chose a lab in Germany rather than use either of the US labs that the Army has certified for testing ought to raise suspicions as well. NBC’s test looks very similar to the “tests” that Pinnacle was able to get aired on Future Weapons and Mail Call, and therefore doesn’t appear to be any more reliable than what those other shows depicted. One would reasonably think that NBC’s journalistic standards would be above those of two cable network rah-rah shows. One would evidently be mistaken for thinking so.

By placing pro-Dragon Skin stories on two programs that attract pro-military audiences and military family audiences and on one of the country’s premiere news networks, Pinnacle evidently sought to build a groundswell of support for Dragon Skin among those with the most at stake in the Army’s choice of body armor: military members and their families. NBC’s story in particular had a major effect, with hearings convened in Congress that turned the controversy into a political issue. Will NBC now follow-up with honest reporting and real testing, noting that DoJ has decertified Dragon Skin body armor? I’m not holding my breath.

From WaPo:
The U.S. Army, in a rare move Monday, released a barrage of test results showing that a privately-sold flexible body armor that some families have sought for their soldiers failed extensive military testing.
The heart of the matter.
Holding up an armor-piercing bullet, Brown showed video of the tests, including footage of officials peering into the bullet hole in the Dragon Skin armor. "At the end of the day, this one disc has to stop this round. It didn't. Thirteen times," he said.

    In response, Murray Neal, president of Pinnacle Armor which produces Dragon Skin, suggested that the Army lied about some of the testing, and he questioned why the Army was counting shots that "were fired into the non-rifle defeating areas."
Here's some actual statistics for you:
Brown described "catastrophic failures" by the Dragon Skin armor, and said that in 13 of 48 shots, lethal armor-piercing rounds either shattered the discs that make up the armor, or completely penetrated the vest.

    "Zero failures is the correct answer," he said. "One failure is sudden death and you lose the game."

    Brown added that the armor failed to endure required temperatures shifts _ from minus 20 degrees to 120 above zero _ which weakened the adhesive holding the discs together. And he said that the Dragon Skin's heavy weight was also a problem for soldiers who need to carry a lot of gear.

    The Dragon Skin, he said, weighs 47.5 pounds, compared to the Army-issued Interceptor armor, which weighs 28 pounds.

Add ammo, water, radios, batteries, NVGs, and all of the other essential items, and from that 28 pound vest you end up with an 80 pound combat load at the least.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6831|Global Command
I'm only shocked the makers of Dragon Skin aren't receiving tax subsidies.

Sounds like there should be criminal charges.
jsnipy
...
+3,277|6825|...

I heard this on NPR some time ago. I get the impression that there is some back dealing with existing body armor makers to keep those long standing contracts alive.
JG1567JG
Member
+110|6890|United States of America
Good post.  I have read and seen a few different things that have debunked Dragon Skin Body Armor.  I think that Pinnacle Armor kinda pissed off some the the top brass in the army with the NBC story.  They decided to wage their own campaign to show just how bad Dragon Skin Body Armor is.
blademaster
I'm moving to Brazil
+2,075|6947
some other country should pursue it, if U.S. is not going to go along with it. Canada should pursue it
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6903|132 and Bush

jsnipy wrote:

I heard this on NPR some time ago. I get the impression that there is some back dealing with existing body armor makers to keep those long standing contracts alive.
I've seen the reports online.. I'll hunt for them now. I thought we had the solution in April though http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=69145 .



Edit:
http://op-for.com/2007/05/what_no_government_conspiracy.html

Specifically, we found that the Army and Marine Corps
• are currently meeting theater ballistic requirements and the required amount needed for personnel in theater, including the amounts needed for the surge of troops into Iraq;
• have controls in place during manufacturing and after fielding to assure that body armor meets requirements; and
• share information regarding ballistic requirements and testing, and the development of future body armor systems, although they are not required to do so.
Sorry Pinnacle. No. Government. Conspiracy.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d07662r.pdf
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blademaster
I'm moving to Brazil
+2,075|6947
they are replacing it because they are developing this new technology or they already have it they just have to implement it into the body armor. Its some sticky stuff composed of some molecules or something it should be able to bounce off all the bullets.
The_Fighting_69th
Combat medic
+6|7055
pfft, dragon skin is crap, they just had a good public image because of that show Futureweapons.  If I recall several of the tests were rigged...
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6903|132 and Bush

The_Fighting_69th wrote:

pfft, dragon skin is crap, they just had a good public image because of that show Futureweapons.  If I recall several of the tests were rigged...
That seems to be the way it's shaping out.
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ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6951

They made a really big deal that it could withstand those rounds from that range. Can the current armour not take that then, but is still safer overall?
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6793|Northern California
I feel so duped!  I too watched the military channel and history channel versions of that testing with that bald seal dude and was convinced!  Damn!  I feel so naked now, and so violated.  I hope 50 cent doesn't buy one of those jackets!
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6525|Escea

A lot of these new projects seem to be getting cancelled and stuff recently, there was the Commanche, then the OICW, then the XM-8, now this.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6946
Interceptor fucking works! if it aint broke, why fix it?  Sure, there could be improvements, but I never trusted that dragon skin wave of propaganda.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6525|Escea

Still looks cool to me,

https://www.defense-update.com/images/limbs.jpg
{DGC}{jr.}Blitzkrieg
Member
+10|7138|Arizona
Great thread. I just like how they got on TV then the Army blasted them away when they tested it for themselves.
loubot
O' HAL naw!
+470|6880|Columbus, OH

M.O.A.B wrote:

A lot of these new projects seem to be getting cancelled and stuff recently, there was the Commanche, then the OICW, then the XM-8, now this.
Projects never get cancelled just placed in the back-burner w/ smaller investment. The USMC Osprey V-22 is a classical example.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/v-22.htm
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6903|132 and Bush

loubot wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

A lot of these new projects seem to be getting cancelled and stuff recently, there was the Commanche, then the OICW, then the XM-8, now this.
Projects never get cancelled just placed in the back-burner w/ smaller investment. The USMC Osprey V-22 is a classical example.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/v-22.htm
I saw one of those a couple months ago at Macdill.
https://i13.tinypic.com/4uewkg9.jpg

This was there also, it was on future weapons in April.
https://i9.tinypic.com/4kanigw.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ac-130.htm



And of course we all know what this is .
https://i14.tinypic.com/4po8k0w.jpg
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Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6707|North Carolina

jsnipy wrote:

I heard this on NPR some time ago. I get the impression that there is some back dealing with existing body armor makers to keep those long standing contracts alive.
Basically, you can safely assume that a lot of the military industry works like that.  One of the most infamous examples was the bureaucracy and croneyism that led to the M-16's use in Vietnam despite it's lack of endurance in highly moist and humid climates.

After several thousand malfunctions (and lost lives as a result), the military finally pressured ArmaLite to modify the M16's design.
Cpt.Snewo
Member
+4|6424
i heard about this when it first came out alls they let you see was the front side of it.
JG1567JG
Member
+110|6890|United States of America

Turquoise wrote:

jsnipy wrote:

I heard this on NPR some time ago. I get the impression that there is some back dealing with existing body armor makers to keep those long standing contracts alive.
Basically, you can safely assume that a lot of the military industry works like that.  One of the most infamous examples was the bureaucracy and croneyism that led to the M-16's use in Vietnam despite it's lack of endurance in highly moist and humid climates.

After several thousand malfunctions (and lost lives as a result), the military finally pressured ArmaLite to modify the M16's design.
It was the Army Brass themselves that decided not to chrome plate the reciever and changed the powder used in the ammo and didn't issue cleaning kits.
The_Fighting_69th
Combat medic
+6|7055

JG1567JG wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

jsnipy wrote:

I heard this on NPR some time ago. I get the impression that there is some back dealing with existing body armor makers to keep those long standing contracts alive.
Basically, you can safely assume that a lot of the military industry works like that.  One of the most infamous examples was the bureaucracy and croneyism that led to the M-16's use in Vietnam despite it's lack of endurance in highly moist and humid climates.

After several thousand malfunctions (and lost lives as a result), the military finally pressured ArmaLite to modify the M16's design.
It was the Army Brass themselves that decided not to chrome plate the reciever and changed the powder used in the ammo and didn't issue cleaning kits.
That's right.  Much as I dislike the AR15 series of rifles as a combat weapon, Eugene Stoner told them not to change the powder.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6707|North Carolina
Good points...  We really need to streamline the military's bureaucracy.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6903|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

jsnipy wrote:

I heard this on NPR some time ago. I get the impression that there is some back dealing with existing body armor makers to keep those long standing contracts alive.
Basically, you can safely assume that a lot of the military industry works like that.  One of the most infamous examples was the bureaucracy and croneyism that led to the M-16's use in Vietnam despite it's lack of endurance in highly moist and humid climates.

After several thousand malfunctions (and lost lives as a result), the military finally pressured ArmaLite to modify the M16's design.
It actually took an act of Congress to fix them.

However, military contractors are now constantly pushing for newer more expensive technology regardless of need. We are so obsessed with technology that we often toss out practicality and usefulness. The F-22 Raptor is a prime example.

Peters wrote:

"No sensible person would argue against the potential benefits of new military technologies — but those technologies must be relevant to genuine wartime needs, not merely sexy platforms for air shows. The services become so mesmerized by their in-progress procurement programs that any challenge to a system’s utility is treated as an attack on the service itself.

The truth is that we lie."
From Iraq's Sunni Triangle to China's military high command, the counterrevolution in military affairs is well underway. We are seduced by what we can do; our enemies focus on what they must do...Terrorists, for one lethal example, do not fear "network-centric warfare" because they have already mastered it for a tiny fraction of one cent on the dollar, achieving greater relative effects with the Internet, cell phones, and cheap airline tickets than all of our military technologies have delivered. Our prime weapon in our struggles with terrorists, insurgents, and warriors of every patchwork sort remains the soldier or Marine; yet, confronted with reality's bloody evidence, we simply pretend that other, future, hypothetical wars will justify the systems we adore purchased at the expense of the assets we need.
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Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6707|North Carolina
Well, half of the problem would be solved if we didn't go to war so often.  We spend WAY too much on our military.  We could spend half of what we currently do, and if we weren't stuck in Iraq, we'd have more than enough funding to keep our status as the most powerful military force.
The_Fighting_69th
Combat medic
+6|7055
How is the F22 useless?  As good as the F15 is we need to upgrade to the next generation.  Just because we are fighting a force with no air force now doesn't mean we won't in the next few years, by then it's too late to develop a new aircraft. 

It it expensive?  yes.  But it is also unmatched by any other fighter in the world.

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