Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6611|132 and Bush

Not good... (For anyone)
https://i17.tinypic.com/6guf1g4.jpg
The Chinese government has begun a concerted campaign of economic threats against the United States, hinting that it may liquidate its vast holding of US treasuries if Washington imposes trade sanctions to force a yuan revaluation.

Two officials at leading Communist Party bodies have given interviews in recent days warning - for the first time - that Beijing may use its $1.33 trillion (£658bn) of foreign reserves as a political weapon to counter pressure from the US Congress. Shifts in Chinese policy are often announced through key think tanks and academies.

Described as China's "nuclear option" in the state media, such action could trigger a dollar crash at a time when the US currency is already breaking down through historic support levels.
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It would also cause a spike in US bond yields, hammering the US housing market and perhaps tipping the economy into recession. It is estimated that China holds over $900bn in a mix of US bonds.

Xia Bin, finance chief at the Development Research Centre (which has cabinet rank), kicked off what now appears to be government policy with a comment last week that Beijing's foreign reserves should be used as a "bargaining chip" in talks with the US.

"Of course, China doesn't want any undesirable phenomenon in the global financial order," he added.

He Fan, an official at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, went even further today, letting it be known that Beijing had the power to set off a dollar collapse if it choose to do so.

"China has accumulated a large sum of US dollars. Such a big sum, of which a considerable portion is in US treasury bonds, contributes a great deal to maintaining the position of the dollar as a reserve currency. Russia, Switzerland, and several other countries have reduced the their dollar holdings.

"China is unlikely to follow suit as long as the yuan's exchange rate is stable against the dollar. The Chinese central bank will be forced to sell dollars once the yuan appreciated dramatically, which might lead to a mass depreciation of the dollar," he told China Daily.

The threats play into the presidential electoral campaign of Hillary Clinton, who has called for restrictive legislation to prevent America being "held hostage to economic decicions being made in Beijing, Shanghai, or Tokyo".

She said foreign control over 44pc of the US national debt had left America acutely vulnerable.

Simon Derrick, a currency strategist at the Bank of New York Mellon, said the comments were a message to the US Senate as Capitol Hill prepares legislation for the Autumn session.

"The words are alarming and unambiguous. This carries a clear political threat and could have very serious consequences at a time when the credit markets are already afraid of contagion from the subprime troubles," he said.

A bill drafted by a group of US senators, and backed by the Senate Finance Committee, calls for trade tariffs against Chinese goods as retaliation for alleged currency manipulation.

The yuan has appreciated 9pc against the dollar over the last two years under a crawling peg but it has failed to halt the rise of China's trade surplus, which reached $26.9bn in June.

Henry Paulson, the US Tresury Secretary, said any such sanctions would undermine American authority and "could trigger a global cycle of protectionist legislation".

Mr Paulson is a China expert from his days as head of Goldman Sachs. He has opted for a softer form of diplomacy, but appeared to win few concession from Beijing on a unscheduled trip to China last week aimed at calming the waters.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.j … na107a.xml
Xbone Stormsurgezz
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6540|Global Command
So, that explains the radical influx of illegal aliens.

They only way to compete with a slave labor economy is to have a slave labor economy, lol...



Meanwhile, the Iraq war cost something like $4000.00 per minute, meanwhile Exxon Mobil, the world's biggest oil company, said profit climbed 10 percent to a first-quarter record after higher gasoline and diesel prices increased refining profit. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 00592.html


http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=23873
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6611|132 and Bush

Xbone Stormsurgezz
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6559|San Diego, CA, USA
China has us by the balls.
m8v2
Banned
+16|6306
I'm 99% sure there will be a democratic Chinese revolution  before this happens.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6540|Global Command

m8v2 wrote:

I'm 99% sure there will be a democratic Chinese revolution  before this happens.
I certainly hope you are right.
David.P
Banned
+649|6284

ATG wrote:

m8v2 wrote:

I'm 99% sure there will be a democratic Chinese revolution  before this happens.
I certainly hope you are right.
Gimme a million well trained men, A couple thousand jets, And a hell lot of bullets i'll have them taken care of before the olympics(And that kim jong mother fucker aswell )
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6479

David.P wrote:

ATG wrote:

m8v2 wrote:

I'm 99% sure there will be a democratic Chinese revolution  before this happens.
I certainly hope you are right.
Gimme a million well trained men, A couple thousand jets, And a hell lot of bullets i'll have them taken care of before the olympics(And that kim jong mother fucker aswell )
The PLA is way bigger than that. And the PLA's tech is getting closer to that of the US. In a few years China will make the world its bitch.
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|6727
Now they're sending us crappy seafood...  My cousin is studying over in China and she said its pretty cool... but if they dont get there pollution under control... it wont matter what the rest of the world does...  im boycotting chinese food... lol...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292470,00.html

Last edited by [TUF]Catbox (2007-08-07 20:56:30)

Love is the answer
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6398

doctastrangelove1964 wrote:

David.P wrote:

ATG wrote:


I certainly hope you are right.
Gimme a million well trained men, A couple thousand jets, And a hell lot of bullets i'll have them taken care of before the olympics(And that kim jong mother fucker aswell )
The PLA is way bigger than that. And the PLA's tech is getting closer to that of the US. In a few years China will make the world its bitch.
For some reason, I seriously doubt that the Chinese have any capability of projecting military power besides their ICBMs. The PLAN is shit, the PLAAF also falls under that category, short ranged aircraft, no bases around the world, etc. Invasion of the Chinese homeland without WMD's(which is impossible considering that if a country is about to collapse I doubt they would think twice about launching off their nuclear arsenal) would probably end up being very costly(in monetary terms and possibly military terms for us if our generals((in truth it would probably end up being politicians)) make some stupid mistake or decide to fight a limited war, example, trying to kill their government and military by chopping off the fingers like was done in Vietnam).

And about the numbers, the US military numbers 1.4 million considering everything if I am not mistaken, I think the Chinese military is 3 million or so, but remember, the majority of these are untrained and unsupplied(half of them still using Mosin-Nagants and PPsH's most likely)trying to fight a conventional war with commanders who have no respect for their own soldiers or civilians lives. Just like with the Soviet Union they have 3(or at least I think so) different grades of training and weaponry. "A" grade is obviously the best, the divisions considered the most politically reliable, equipped with the most modern equipment, well supplied, well trained. What can be considered their regular military, next you have the "B" divisions, these are reservists, older equipment, not very well trained, not to well off on the supplies, if they take after the Russian model though they will have massive supply dumps of prepositioned equipment. Last is the "C" divisions, these are the 40+ year olds who are riding to battle in their T-55 or Chinese equivalent MBT, well, that is if the machinery doesn't break down before they get to the front. It would be a slaughter, unless the "A" divisions could stall the advance and the diplomats could negotiate a peace, you would have no front line soldiers left, it would be a slaughter, with fully trained divisions running around in the back yard of poorly trained, poorly equipped store owners, doctors, and the like. Slaughter, total collapse of governments control.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6559|San Diego, CA, USA

doctastrangelove1964 wrote:

The PLA is way bigger than that. And the PLA's tech is getting closer to that of the US. In a few years China will make the world its bitch.
That's because they keep stealing it.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6782|PNW

Say the guys who wear western suits.
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6479

Commie Killer wrote:

doctastrangelove1964 wrote:

David.P wrote:

Gimme a million well trained men, A couple thousand jets, And a hell lot of bullets i'll have them taken care of before the olympics(And that kim jong mother fucker aswell )
The PLA is way bigger than that. And the PLA's tech is getting closer to that of the US. In a few years China will make the world its bitch.
For some reason, I seriously doubt that the Chinese have any capability of projecting military power besides their ICBMs. The PLAN is shit, the PLAAF also falls under that category, short ranged aircraft, no bases around the world, etc. Invasion of the Chinese homeland without WMD's(which is impossible considering that if a country is about to collapse I doubt they would think twice about launching off their nuclear arsenal) would probably end up being very costly(in monetary terms and possibly military terms for us if our generals((in truth it would probably end up being politicians)) make some stupid mistake or decide to fight a limited war, example, trying to kill their government and military by chopping off the fingers like was done in Vietnam).

And about the numbers, the US military numbers 1.4 million considering everything if I am not mistaken, I think the Chinese military is 3 million or so, but remember, the majority of these are untrained and unsupplied(half of them still using Mosin-Nagants and PPsH's most likely)trying to fight a conventional war with commanders who have no respect for their own soldiers or civilians lives. Just like with the Soviet Union they have 3(or at least I think so) different grades of training and weaponry. "A" grade is obviously the best, the divisions considered the most politically reliable, equipped with the most modern equipment, well supplied, well trained. What can be considered their regular military, next you have the "B" divisions, these are reservists, older equipment, not very well trained, not to well off on the supplies, if they take after the Russian model though they will have massive supply dumps of prepositioned equipment. Last is the "C" divisions, these are the 40+ year olds who are riding to battle in their T-55 or Chinese equivalent MBT, well, that is if the machinery doesn't break down before they get to the front. It would be a slaughter, unless the "A" divisions could stall the advance and the diplomats could negotiate a peace, you would have no front line soldiers left, it would be a slaughter, with fully trained divisions running around in the back yard of poorly trained, poorly equipped store owners, doctors, and the like. Slaughter, total collapse of governments control.

wikipedia wrote:

In the early 1990s, the PLAAF began a program of modernisation, motivated by the collapse of the Soviet Union, as well as the possibility of military conflict with the Republic of China (Taiwan) and perhaps also involving the United States. This process began with the acquisition of Su-27s in the early 1990s and the development of various fourth-generation aircraft, including the domestic J-10, and the JF-17 in collaboration with Pakistan. The PLAAF also strived to improve its pilot training and continued to retire obsolete aircraft. This resulted in a reduction of the overall number of aircraft in the PLAAF with a concurrent increase in quality of its air fleet.

The 21st century has seen the continuation of the modernisation programme with China's huge economic growth. It acquired 76 Su-30MKK's from 2000 to 2003, and 24 upgraded Su-30MKK2's in 2004. It also produced around 100 J-11s from 2002 onwards and bought 3 batches (at a total of 76) of the Su-27SK/UBK. Production of the J-10 fighter began in 2002. The PLAAF also began developing its own tanker aircraft, which it previously lacked, by modifying old Soviet planes such as the Tu-16 Badger (in China known as the H-6). In 2005 it announced plans to buy approximately 30 IL-76 transport planes and eight Il-78 tanker planes from Russia, which would greatly increase its troop airlift capability and offer extended range to many aircraft.

The current goal is to have a mostly fourth-generation air force (with integrated C4ISR systems for increased battle effectiveness), giving it an advantage over the older fourth-generation aircraft of the Republic of China, even though the ROCAF has been attempting to purchase F-16 C/D block fighters to help replace its older F-5s. The PLAAF is also developing its own fifth-generation fighter, the J-XX, as a possible counter to late generation Western fighters; however it is still under development.
The PLA is modernizing pretty quickly. While yes in their current state they are to poorly equiped to fight the US but in a few years that may be different.

Wiki also says that the oldest gun used my China is the Type 54 pistol (1954), the US's oldest weapon, the M1911 (1911) pistol is 43 years older. The newest weapon currently used by China is the QBZ-03 rifle (2003), while the US's newest infantry weapon being currently used is the HK416 (2005). So China will probably have a military well equipped enough to deal with the US in only a few years. And you also got to remember that the PLA is much larger than the US Military.

Last edited by doctastrangelove1964 (2007-08-07 22:24:39)

Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6727

doctastrangelove1964 wrote:

David.P wrote:

ATG wrote:


I certainly hope you are right.
Gimme a million well trained men, A couple thousand jets, And a hell lot of bullets i'll have them taken care of before the olympics(And that kim jong mother fucker aswell )
The PLA is way bigger than that. And the PLA's tech is getting closer to that of the US. In a few years China will make the world its bitch.
Their tech is only getting closer to the US is because they steal shit and break copyright laws...
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
PvtStPoK
paintball > bf2
+48|6525|montreal, quebec

good job Beijing!
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6852|Cologne, Germany

I think it is safe to say that - regardless of the conventional military arsenal that either side could bring to the table - neither the US nor China could win a conventional war on each other's territory. Too far away, too big, too many people. Keep in mind , the US can't even make peace in Iraq. Does anyone here honestly believe they could conquer China ?

Moreover, such a war, even if it could be fought, would surely ruin each other's economies. Let's not kidd ourselves here. War ain't exactly cheap, and no nation on this planet could finance a war against China or the US. For what gain anyway ?

Your economies are interdependant. I have no doubts this will be resolved quickly and peacefully.
san4
The Mas
+311|6699|NYC, a place to live
The Bush Administration's tax cuts (which congressional Democrats and Republicans both supported) sold the US to China. Anyone up for more tax cuts now?
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6384|Kyiv, Ukraine
The war also sold us to China, Bernanke and Greenspan's debt issues to pay for it (which China bought up like candy) sold us to China, and the easy financial vehicles that fueled the housing boom/bust in the US...sold us to China.  And, our nasty (and in some cases, completely illogical) trade deficit with China, courtesy of Wal-Mart and Lowe's foods, to name some names, sold us to China.

I'll probably be in Shanghai within a year, supervising my Ubisoft programming team made up of guys getting paid less than $200/month.  I hope while I'm there my kid learns Chinese, looks like he'll need it later.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6398
Numbers dont mean shit in modern war, at least in the numbers of troops, a well supplied, well trained, military force could easily destroy a much larger military force which is rather poorly equipped, trained, etc. Their navy and airforce would be taken out rather quickly which would leave their ground forces like fish in a lake(a barrel doesnt apply, they still have many SAM's, AAA, etc), since their navy is rather non-existent(and all that does exist would get blown out of the water within a few days of the order being given) they would have no capability to destroy our supply ships.

About Iraq....it does not really make any sense to compare the two, the majority of Iraqi's support us, also the majority of the fighters there are insurgents, I highly doubt that we would have to worry about insurgents coming to China, the PRC doesn't have much in the way of allies, and besides, they are godless, religious extremists will not have any pity for them. And remember Desert Shield/Storm? Many people were saying we would have massive casualties, what was the final total for coalition forces? 190 or something? That was against the 4th largest standing military(I think we were 3rd, USSR was 2nd, and the PRC was 1st or something like that). A war against China would be a conventional one, go in, blow the shit out of their military and government, pull out when our countries sign a peace treaty, government would probably change since it has been weakened by the war.


One last thought, lets try to keep this centered on China and not on Iraq.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6398

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

The war also sold us to China, Bernanke and Greenspan's debt issues to pay for it (which China bought up like candy) sold us to China, and the easy financial vehicles that fueled the housing boom/bust in the US...sold us to China.  And, our nasty (and in some cases, completely illogical) trade deficit with China, courtesy of Wal-Mart and Lowe's foods, to name some names, sold us to China.

I'll probably be in Shanghai within a year, supervising my Ubisoft programming team made up of guys getting paid less than $200/month.  I hope while I'm there my kid learns Chinese, looks like he'll need it later.
Cheap labor is in abundance there, thats for sure, the trade deficet is amazing, also, which is even more amazing is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_China
KnowMeByTrailOfDead
Jackass of all Trades
+62|6692|Dayton, Ohio
Just remember, if they colapse our economy there will be no one left to buy their bargain basement goods.  China and the US are in it together for life, or until the purchasing power of Africa can pick up the slack.

Last edited by KnowMeByTrailOfDead (2007-08-08 08:05:38)

GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6384|Kyiv, Ukraine

Commie Killer wrote:

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

The war also sold us to China, Bernanke and Greenspan's debt issues to pay for it (which China bought up like candy) sold us to China, and the easy financial vehicles that fueled the housing boom/bust in the US...sold us to China.  And, our nasty (and in some cases, completely illogical) trade deficit with China, courtesy of Wal-Mart and Lowe's foods, to name some names, sold us to China.

I'll probably be in Shanghai within a year, supervising my Ubisoft programming team made up of guys getting paid less than $200/month.  I hope while I'm there my kid learns Chinese, looks like he'll need it later.
Cheap labor is in abundance there, thats for sure, the trade deficet is amazing, also, which is even more amazing is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_China
$1.4 billion is absolutely nothing, Bill Gates could write the check himself without breaking a sweat.  I'm not saying its even close to right though.

China is the big 800-lb gorilla though, but we have each other by the short-hairs.  If they start dumping their dollars, they'll devalue their own currency as the yuan has been pegged solidly to the dollar since 1998 (pegged = relatively proportional at all times).  If they don't start dumping their dollars, and the dollar keeps sliding anyways (against the GBP or Euro, for example), they still lose.  If they start calling in their debts and snapping up hard American assets (not the liquid stuff like stocks, like factories and real estate), they'll still lose as the deflationary spiral hits in the US.

Basically, China and the US are now in a strange sort of tightrope walk holding hands, and it sucks to be a citizen of either one, as they could start falling at any minute.  War spending and easy credit made this happen, god bless the neo-cons.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6398

KnowMeByTrailOfDead wrote:

Just remember, if they colapse our economy there will be no one left to buy their bargain basement goods.  China and the US are in it together for life, or until the purchasing power of Africa can pick up the slack.
If our trade between China stopped, right now, today, I think the that would happen is our economy would take a sudden drop for a very short amount of time, then boost back up as other places took up the slack, such as Taiwan, Indonesia, etc, even back home here, in the end, after a few weeks, our economy would probably end up stronger, especially since we would lose our trade deficit with them.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6398

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

The war also sold us to China, Bernanke and Greenspan's debt issues to pay for it (which China bought up like candy) sold us to China, and the easy financial vehicles that fueled the housing boom/bust in the US...sold us to China.  And, our nasty (and in some cases, completely illogical) trade deficit with China, courtesy of Wal-Mart and Lowe's foods, to name some names, sold us to China.

I'll probably be in Shanghai within a year, supervising my Ubisoft programming team made up of guys getting paid less than $200/month.  I hope while I'm there my kid learns Chinese, looks like he'll need it later.
Cheap labor is in abundance there, thats for sure, the trade deficet is amazing, also, which is even more amazing is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_China
$1.4 billion is absolutely nothing, Bill Gates could write the check himself without breaking a sweat.  I'm not saying its even close to right though.

China is the big 800-lb gorilla though, but we have each other by the short-hairs.  If they start dumping their dollars, they'll devalue their own currency as the yuan has been pegged solidly to the dollar since 1998 (pegged = relatively proportional at all times).  If they don't start dumping their dollars, and the dollar keeps sliding anyways (against the GBP or Euro, for example), they still lose.  If they start calling in their debts and snapping up hard American assets (not the liquid stuff like stocks, like factories and real estate), they'll still lose as the deflationary spiral hits in the US.

Basically, China and the US are now in a strange sort of tightrope walk holding hands, and it sucks to be a citizen of either one, as they could start falling at any minute.  War spending and easy credit made this happen, god bless the neo-cons.
I doubt that losing our trade with them would hurt us as much as them, we would bounce back as other countries took up the slack. Cutting trade between the PRC and the USA would hurt us but it would kill them.
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6384|Kyiv, Ukraine

Commie Killer wrote:

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:


Cheap labor is in abundance there, thats for sure, the trade deficet is amazing, also, which is even more amazing is this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_China
$1.4 billion is absolutely nothing, Bill Gates could write the check himself without breaking a sweat.  I'm not saying its even close to right though.

China is the big 800-lb gorilla though, but we have each other by the short-hairs.  If they start dumping their dollars, they'll devalue their own currency as the yuan has been pegged solidly to the dollar since 1998 (pegged = relatively proportional at all times).  If they don't start dumping their dollars, and the dollar keeps sliding anyways (against the GBP or Euro, for example), they still lose.  If they start calling in their debts and snapping up hard American assets (not the liquid stuff like stocks, like factories and real estate), they'll still lose as the deflationary spiral hits in the US.

Basically, China and the US are now in a strange sort of tightrope walk holding hands, and it sucks to be a citizen of either one, as they could start falling at any minute.  War spending and easy credit made this happen, god bless the neo-cons.
I doubt that losing our trade with them would hurt us as much as them, we would bounce back as other countries took up the slack. Cutting trade between the PRC and the USA would hurt us but it would kill them.
Keep dreaming, all they need for a big fat market for cheap goods is to change the compass to point west.  Chinese are everywhere here in Kharkiv setting up trade deals.  Russians are absolutely ravenous for middle-class consumer goods as their economies level out.

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