Pages: 1 … 24 25 26 27 28 … 33

 

Poll

Are you a Christian?

I would like to be 50% 50% - 157 50% 50% - 157
I don't want anything to do with that! 55% 55% - 174 44% 44% - 140
Total: 314
2006-07-18 00:21:23
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6940

Vub wrote:

Another thing, there are some extremely complex and ingenious structures in the world, such as the eye, which couldn't have developed out of random mutations.
'Eyes' range from very simple to very complex, as in humans, and examples of every intermediate stage are present in living creatures today. To say that they 'couldn't evolve' is a fallacious statement.

I found both these articles interesting, though wikipedia is generally more of a synopsis than an article.
http://www.wehi.edu.au/resources/vce_bi … nkel3.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
2006-07-18 01:10:57
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS

Vub wrote:

Have a look at the Earth, it is "perfect" to harbour life. A few thousand kilometres nearer or closer to the Sun would turn us into Mars or the Moon or Venus, which are lifeless. So is it by pure chance, that surrounding this yellow star, a planet with all the chemicals and conditions which are essential for life to begin, grouped together? The air temperature, the vast oceans of water, the oxygen in the atmosphere, the ozone which blocks out UVb and UVc, and the carbon and nitrogen and complex carbohydrates and proteins and DNA: the chances of all that is infinitesimal. These conditions were set in place when God created the Earth.

Another thing, there are some extremely complex and ingenious structures in the world, such as the eye, which couldn't have developed out of random mutations.
Heh. Looks like we're back here again.

I hope you notice that all this "The air temperature, the vast oceans of water, the oxygen in the atmosphere, the ozone which blocks out UVb and UVc, and the carbon and nitrogen and complex carbohydrates and proteins and DNA: the chances of all that is infinitesimal. These conditions were set in place when God created the Earth."

is unimportant. Why?

Because all these factors say is that life itself is not rare, but OUR life is. This is a crucial and little-understood difference, I'm afraid.

"Another thing, there are some extremely complex and ingenious structures in the world, such as the eye, which couldn't have developed out of random mutations."

And where did you do your research, I wonder? I don't need to post articles, Skruples's done that for me.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-07-18 02:35:39
.:XDR:.PureFodder
Member
+105|7068

JaMDuDe wrote:

First of all, we dont know how many atoms are in the universe. If you want to talk about chances, you should see this and this. For life to start requires MUCH more than some atoms to be in the right place in the right time. And why did it only take a few million years or so for life to start if the chances are it will happen once in about 10 billion years?


God never appeared. He has always been. He most likely set things going through something like the big bang. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang
I love this arguement. So the arguement presented in the film is that god must have designed the universe perfectly so that life can exist here.
Volume of the Earth = 10^11 cubic km
Volume of universe = 1.9 × 10^33 cubic light years
7x10^38 km^3 in a cubic light year so the universe is roughly
Volume of universe = 1x10^72 cubic km

Assuming as they do that life exists only on Earth, percentage of the universe that is known to be inhabited therefore in....

0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

And they believe that an all powerful god that can do anything, that made the universe purely for the inhabitation of humanity could only muster up the tiniest spec of inhabitable volume?

Oh and also, they assumed life started out in the bulk of the ocean. It looks very likely that life will actually have started aroun hyrdothermal vents near the ocean floor which removes most of the atmospheric and sun related problems.

Oh and for anyone who can't figure out any steps from not light sensitive to eyes here's a couple. Insects have a hugely more basic eye structure than we do and plants are light sensitive. They react to the direction of sunlight and will move so that they are always facing into the sun.

Last edited by .:XDR:.PureFodder (2006-07-18 03:47:34)

2006-07-18 02:55:50
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

First of all, we dont know how many atoms are in the universe. If you want to talk about chances, you should see this and this. For life to start requires MUCH more than some atoms to be in the right place in the right time. And why did it only take a few million years or so for life to start if the chances are it will happen once in about 10 billion years?


God never appeared. He has always been. He most likely set things going through something like the big bang. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang
I love this arguement. So the arguement presented in the film is that god must have designed the universe perfectly so that life can exist here.
Volume of the Earth = 10^11 cubic km
Volume of universe = 1.9 × 10^33 cubic light years
7x10^38 km^3 in a cubic light year so the universe is roughly
Volume of universe = 1x10^72 cubic km

Assuming as they do that life exists only on Earth, percentage of the universe that is known to be inhabited therefore in....

0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%

And they believe that an all powerful god that can do anything, that made the universe purely for the inhabitation of humanity could only muster up the tiniest spec of inhabitable volume?

Oh and also, they assumed life started out in the bulk of the ocean. It looks very likely that life will actually have started aroun hyrdothermal vents near the ocean floor which removes most of the atmospheric and sun related problems.

Oh and for anyone who can't figure out any steps from not light sensitive to eyes here's a couple. Insects have a hugely more basic eye structure than we do and plants are light sensitive. They react to the direction of sunlight and will move so thay ther are always facing into the sun.
Oh? I would of thought they started around fumaroles and volcanic pools - which probably covered a helluva lot of earth at that time.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-07-18 08:13:13
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7005|Cambridge (UK)
A suggestion to all:

The scientists - wherever you see the word 'God' substitute it for the word 'universe'.
The religious - wherever you see a scientific term such as 'universe' or 'atom' substitute it for the phrase 'aspect of God'.

Hope this helps...
2006-07-18 08:20:57
DoctorFruitloop
Level 13 Wrongdoer
+515|6785|Doncaster, UK
That's somewhat oversimplified and probably an insult to both camps.
2006-07-18 08:25:50
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6933|San Francisco
No, Scorpion, that actually does a great disservice to both camps.
2006-07-18 08:26:29
-=YakuzA=-Kamikaze
Member
+3|6738|USA
Of Course...Now lets get on the Battlefield and Kill each other over and over again!!!!!
2006-07-18 09:27:24
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|7016
Skruples I know what a black hole is. I didnt mean litterally right next to one, but close enough so that life probably isnt on it. I see what your saying now. The movie didnt credit anything to God once. All they are saying is that we arent an average planet.

Pure fodder we dont know how big the universe is. Those odds you give us mean nothing because they are extremely rough estimates of only what we can see.

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-07-18 10:13:27)

2006-07-18 12:10:22
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6940
We already knew we weren't on an average planet. We know of 9 planets, and ours is the only "good" one, thus in the 'known universe' of planets ours is very unaverage. However, you seemed to be trying to use that video as evidence that life should not exist naturally, and that is an error. At best, even if we accept for the moment that everything it says is true, it only provides evidence that we should be the only life in this galaxy. As I said before, if we include the entire universe and still say that the odds of life are 1x10^-15, life is still likely to happen somewhere. It just happened to happen here.
2006-07-18 17:47:18
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|7016
Almost everything about earth shows that it did not happen by random chance. Read a good book like The Privileged Planet and they explain through pure science how earth shows the signs of intelligence.
2006-07-18 18:56:20
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS

JaMDuDe wrote:

Almost everything about earth shows that it did not happen by random chance. Read a good book like The Privileged Planet and they explain through pure science how earth shows the signs of intelligence.
Once again, we are only privileged in the sense that we exist AS WE ARE. Other events would likely have pushed life in a different course - we could very easily be massive reptiles with big triangles on our back and even bigger teeth.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-07-18 19:38:12
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|7016
They talk about earth and the cosmos, not how well adapted to this planet we are.
2006-07-18 19:42:11
Jejjk
My "Page Up" has never been used.
+40|6846|Sweden
Nope,not christian yet.
But I will be when its time to die.
2006-07-18 22:38:54
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6789|CH/BR - in UK

JaMDuDe wrote:

Almost everything about earth shows that it did not happen by random chance. Read a good book like The Privileged Planet and they explain through pure science how earth shows the signs of intelligence.
Just because we have life here, and don't know of life on 9 different planets, YOU seem to want to prove that there is other life in the universe....sounds kinda farfetched to me...
2006-07-18 23:43:03
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS
You mean...

"...seem to want to prove that there ISN'T other life in the universe..."

...that?
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-07-19 00:21:52
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6789|CH/BR - in UK

yeah
2006-07-19 00:50:11
T0xicboy
Member
+4|6747|the grim and cold north.
Why are you all talking about science vs religion? who cares?
Religion is religion and science is science, period. Until something else proves us wrong that is.

I have a question to you believers.
Do you just believe and go to church? Or do you live after Jesus advices, practice his religion?
Ex - Not punish teamkiller, instead forgive them and turn your other cheek.



Question – Not at the moment, maybe later in my life..


/Toxic
2006-07-19 02:10:17
Vub
The Power of Two
+188|6734|Sydney, Australia
Being Christian is believing in that Jesus died for our sins, and through him there is salvation. If you believe, then automatically you would then live as a Christian, following the guidelines of the Bible or the Church. Christians don't blindly follow these however, I think questioning and doubt is an important part of faith.

In answer to your questions TOxicboy, I don't punish a teamkiller if it is accidental. If it isn't, then I will use the punish system in the game, but I would forgive the person in my heart.

And to Spark, what I last said does demonstrate that the conditions for life is extremely specific, so it does say that all life is rare.

Last edited by Vub (2006-07-19 02:10:47)

2006-07-19 02:22:53
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6914|Canberra, AUS
Oh?

The only way to categorically say 'life is rare' is if you took the requirements of all life forms in the universe and tested them. And there' no way to do that.

So we don't know whether seas of mercury and an atmosphere of sulfuric acid and hydrogen cyanide might be MORE life-capable.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2006-07-19 02:25:21
T0xicboy
Member
+4|6747|the grim and cold north.

Vub wrote:

Being Christian is believing in that Jesus died for our sins, and through him there is salvation. If you believe, then automatically you would then live as a Christian, following the guidelines of the Bible or the Church. Christians don't blindly follow these however, I think questioning and doubt is an important part of faith.

In answer to your questions TOxicboy, I don't punish a teamkiller if it is accidental. If it isn't, then I will use the punish system in the game, but I would forgive the person in my heart.

And to Spark, what I last said does demonstrate that the conditions for life is extremely specific, so it does say that all life is rare.
Good answer Vub!
Me myself seldom punish TK even if they do it to get the helo,plane,boat or whatever before me, except if I have a bad day, then they will have some negative score from me too. Or if my teammates wants that guy gone, then I can support their wish and punish so he is auto kicked.
The accidents is always a forgived action for me.


Over to the religion again.
If a person is not completely following the religion of Jesus but say he is a believer of it, isn’t that cherry picking from Jesus religion.
Ex, he don’t want to put too much work in it but he/she want to be safe from the bad things that might happens if Armageddon comes.



/Toxic
2006-07-19 02:38:37
CR_Poverty
Member
+0|6732
I'm a Christian, but I don't think Athiests should bash other ppl for the beliefs, neither should religions force their ideals down ppl's throats.  Like WhiteStain alludes to, there are a lot of foney ppl who act religious but are all fluff.  However, he does generalize Christians as taking the Bible as God's direct words.  As a science major I have trouble taking the Bible as litteral word.  Even Saint Agustine, a Calthoic icon, struggled with this.  He, and many others like myself, see the Bible kind of like a guide or book to learn from inspired by God, not written by God.  Though, thats just my belief.  I ain't perfect, and I'm still searching for answers, still questioning, and hopefully making myself a better person in the process.
2006-07-19 04:43:15
Vub
The Power of Two
+188|6734|Sydney, Australia
To TOxicboy:

Being Christian isn't about working towards salvation, meaning you can't be a philanthropist and expect automatically to be saved. It is about believing in the Lord, and living by his ways. The Lord doesn't judge you by your actions, but by what's in your heart.

So Christianity isn't a title. One can't mindless attend Church and merely say they believe in Jesus and be deemed a Christian. If one truly believes in Jesus Christ then, they will actively want to "put work into it" (like you would happily put in extra effort to build upon a friendship), and their actions will reflect their belief.

But salvation isn't restricted to certain people. When Jesus was on the cross, the thief next to Him who believed was saved. I hope I've answered your question.

To Spark:
I guess you have a point there, we can't tell yet whether these conditions on Earth are the only conditions which will support life, but you have to admit that out of all the planets and moons we know of, Earth's ability to support life does come from its extraordinary grouping of favourable conditions.
2006-07-19 06:13:01
Vub
The Power of Two
+188|6734|Sydney, Australia
I'm not trying to challenge you, but I am interested in knowing what evidence you have, and what evidence we haven't.
2006-07-19 15:33:45
Daysniper
Member
+42|6874
whose side are you on again?

 

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