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Poll

What Does This Mean to You?

A step in the good direction40%40% - 21
A confession that deserves impeachment30%30% - 16
Other28%28% - 15
Total: 52
2007-07-20 16:22:42
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6764|Argentina
George W Bush has signed an executive order banning "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment" of terror suspects.

BBC wrote:

It says torture and personal abuse - including sexual acts and attacks on religious beliefs - are intolerable.

CIA Director Michael Hayden said the order gave the agency the legal clarity it had been seeking.

The administration has faced pressure at home and abroad over interrogation techniques used on suspected militants.

The most controversial practice allegedly used by the CIA is "water boarding" - in which prisoners are strapped to a plank over water and made to fear that they will drown.

The American authorities have never confirmed they use the technique and it is unclear whether the guidelines allow it.

Leonard Rubenstein, director of Physicians for Human Rights, told the Associated Press news agency that the executive order was inadequate.

"What is needed now is repudiation of brutal and cruel interrogation methods."

"General statements like this are inadequate, particularly after years of evidence that torture was authorised at the highest levels and utilised by US forces," he said.
2007-07-20 17:01:11
I'm Moonshine
Member
+1|6134
He's looking for some desperately needed good PR. Just because it's banned doesn't mean everyone is going to follow the rules.
2007-07-20 17:12:25
PureFodder
Member
+225|6292
Interesting, apparently the CIA were unclear if "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" was ok or not.
2007-07-20 17:42:57
SealXo
Member
+309|6542
The United States is pussing out, we need torturing, we need the flame thrower, and we need mustard gas. isnt it funny, since the flame throw was disbanned and we stopped torturing we havnt won a war?

If i was caught by the opposition, i would expect to be tortured.

EDIT:If the enemy is torturing your men, torture theres.

Last edited by SealXo (2007-07-20 17:43:42)

2007-07-20 17:44:44
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6669|USA

SealXo wrote:

The United States is pussing out, we need torturing, we need the flame thrower, and we need mustard gas. isnt it funny, since the flame throw was disbanned and we stopped torturing we havnt won a war?

If i was caught by the opposition, i would expect to be tortured.

EDIT:If the enemy is torturing your men, torture theres.
you don't want that.
2007-07-20 17:48:00
SealXo
Member
+309|6542

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

SealXo wrote:

The United States is pussing out, we need torturing, we need the flame thrower, and we need mustard gas. isnt it funny, since the flame throw was disbanned and we stopped torturing we havnt won a war?

If i was caught by the opposition, i would expect to be tortured.

EDIT:If the enemy is torturing your men, torture theres.
you don't want that.
No, but id expect that.
2007-07-20 18:24:51
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6671|NT, like Mick Dundee

SealXo wrote:

The United States is pussing out, we need torturing, we need the flame thrower, and we need mustard gas. isnt it funny, since the flame throw was disbanned and we stopped torturing we havnt won a war?

If i was caught by the opposition, i would expect to be tortured.

EDIT:If the enemy is torturing your men, torture theres.
Napalm is classified as a WMD according to a US treaty, can't remember which, in any case...


1) Don't remember flame throwers ever being banned, as far as I can tell they are a conventional weapon of war and were used in WW2, though sparsely, by both sides.

2) Doesn't that take away any moral grounds for the USA to go around preaching to other countries about how great it is? You would lower yourselves to the level of the Islamic Fundamentalist Jihadi groups?






So if by pussying out you mean the USA was acting in a civilised and rational manner, allowing it to use diplomacy as a real tool in international affairs, instead of projecting a facade of good behaviour while committing the same crimes it condemns others of then yeah.... The USA is pussying out....

Frankly, I thought some sort of decency, even in combat, from the country that claims to be the leader of the 'free' world and thus, human civilisation, was a great thing.... Seeing as a barely literate member of it's populace disagrees I guess I'd best go rethink my opinions eh?
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
2007-07-20 19:43:01
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6681|Canberra, AUS

SealXo wrote:

The United States is pussing out, we need torturing, we need the flame thrower, and we need mustard gas. isnt it funny, since the flame throw was disbanned and we stopped torturing we havnt won a war?

If i was caught by the opposition, i would expect to be tortured.

EDIT:If the enemy is torturing your men, torture theres.
Great idea! The US is so much better than Islamic crazies, even if they do the same things!
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2007-07-20 19:44:00
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6768

Spark wrote:

Great idea! The US is so much better than Islamic crazies, even if they do the same things!
Yes, we tend to cut off peoples head and post it on a website.
2007-07-20 19:49:22
Sgt.Kyle
Kyle
+48|6489|P-way, NJ

usmarine2005 wrote:

Spark wrote:

Great idea! The US is so much better than Islamic crazies, even if they do the same things!
Yes, we tend to cut off peoples head and post it on a website.
Yup, and kidnap construction workers
2007-07-20 21:41:07
mikeyb118
Evil Overlord
+76|6605|S.C.
It's a feeble attempt at justification for Guantanamo and not so secret CIA interrogation camps. This is by no means a viable alignment with the Geneva convention because prisoners are still held in poor and indefinite circumstances without trial.
2007-07-21 06:06:29
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6764|Argentina

usmarine2005 wrote:

Spark wrote:

Great idea! The US is so much better than Islamic crazies, even if they do the same things!
Yes, we tend to cut off peoples head and post it on a website.
Link pls.
2007-07-21 06:20:42
keghog
Member
+2|6301
First of all the US does not torture soldiers. The people we are fighting are not soldiers, they do not fight a conventional war, and do not fight under any flag. They are terrorists. Their purpose is to kill americans and make them fail, regardless of how many of their own people they kill in the process. These people do not follow any rules of war, so why should we. Also most of the torturing we do isnt physical torture, but mental torture, sleep deprevation and such. Also we use their religion against them, doing things to the koran, and using pigs blood and pig shit. boo fuckin hoo, they are lucky we arent sawing off their arms like good old saddam used to.
2007-07-21 06:34:47
Lucien
Fantasma Parastasie
+1,451|6659
So nobody thinks that the stronger man is one who doesnt stoop to the level of his enemies? Keghog? SealXo?

guess not.
https://i.imgur.com/HTmoH.jpg
2007-07-21 06:47:43
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|6786|Great Brown North
it doesnt happen if they "dont exist" ?
2007-07-21 06:49:15
Rogue_granny
Member
+22|6572
Im not to sure, I think the US have all the right idea but just suck at implementing them, take the children of Guantanamo bay. This includes at least 10 detainees still held at the US base in Cuba who were 14 or 15 when they were seized - including child soldiers who were held in solitary confinement, repeatedly interrogated and allegedly tortured.

Don’t get me wrong there is nothing wrong with trying minors for crimes, if they have committed crimes. The problem is when you either hold minors without trial in shocking conditions, or try them before a military commission that, in the words of a prosecutor who refused to take part, is rigged," he said. "Even if these kids were involved in fighting - and there was only one who the military pretends was - then there is a UN convention against the use of child soldiers. There is a general recognition in the civilised world that children should be treated differently from adults

There we are 'civilised world' its no longer an eye for an eye attitude but this can be overlooked by a gung ho attitude.

Last edited by Rogue_granny (2007-07-21 06:52:39)

2007-07-21 07:03:28
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6658|USA
Leave it to liberal apologists and appeasers to determine that torture of terrorists to extract info that could save tens of thousands of innocent civilians in a terrorist attack, is a bad thing.

These same liberals will also be the first in line to first celebrate a perceived Bush failure, then bitch, piss and moan at the failure of the US govt. for letting the attack happen without doing something about it.


God, I hate liberals

Last edited by lowing (2007-07-21 07:05:19)

2007-07-21 07:11:12
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6627|London, England

lowing wrote:

Leave it to liberal apologists and appeasers to determine that torture of terrorists to extract info that could save tens of thousands of innocent civilians in a terrorist attack, is a bad thing.

These same liberals will also be the first in line to first celebrate a perceived Bush failure, then bitch, piss and moan at the failure of the US govt. for letting the attack happen without doing something about it.


God, I hate liberals
I think it's ok to extract information from suspects. Just treat them like you would if you're trying to bust some criminal ring, they are after all, criminals.

However when people start talking about how Flamethrowers and Mustard gas needs to be brought back, you have to question it. There is a line we mustn't cross otherwise we'd just end up being like them.
2007-07-21 07:19:51
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6658|USA

Mekstizzle wrote:

lowing wrote:

Leave it to liberal apologists and appeasers to determine that torture of terrorists to extract info that could save tens of thousands of innocent civilians in a terrorist attack, is a bad thing.

These same liberals will also be the first in line to first celebrate a perceived Bush failure, then bitch, piss and moan at the failure of the US govt. for letting the attack happen without doing something about it.


God, I hate liberals
I think it's ok to extract information from suspects. Just treat them like you would if you're trying to bust some criminal ring, they are after all, criminals.

However when people start talking about how Flamethrowers and Mustard gas needs to be brought back, you have to question it. There is a line we mustn't cross otherwise we'd just end up being like them.
Ya, do you honestly believe, criminals do not "slip and fall" resulting in a black eye in the interogation rooms? Believe me, if a kid was help hostage at an undisclosed place facing death, the person in custody who knows all about WILL talk one way or another.

Do not expect to win a war by tieing your OWN hands behind your back
2007-07-21 07:21:11
Penetrator
Certified Twat
+296|6514|Bournemouth, South England
How else they gonna beat innocents into a confession?
2007-07-21 07:23:56
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6556|CH/BR - in UK

lowing wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

lowing wrote:

Leave it to liberal apologists and appeasers to determine that torture of terrorists to extract info that could save tens of thousands of innocent civilians in a terrorist attack, is a bad thing.

These same liberals will also be the first in line to first celebrate a perceived Bush failure, then bitch, piss and moan at the failure of the US govt. for letting the attack happen without doing something about it.


God, I hate liberals
I think it's ok to extract information from suspects. Just treat them like you would if you're trying to bust some criminal ring, they are after all, criminals.

However when people start talking about how Flamethrowers and Mustard gas needs to be brought back, you have to question it. There is a line we mustn't cross otherwise we'd just end up being like them.
Ya, do you honestly believe, criminals do not "slip and fall" resulting in a black eye in the interogation rooms? Believe me, if a kid was help hostage at an undisclosed place facing death, the person in custody who knows all about WILL talk one way or another.

Do not expect to win a war by tieing your OWN hands behind your back
But won't torture get weak innocent people to confess things they've never done? I know that torture is harsh, and I don't know how much I could take myself. Wouldn't you, maybe, if you were innocent, simply confess to some made up thing in the end?

-konfusion
2007-07-21 07:39:08
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6764|Argentina

konfusion wrote:

lowing wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:


I think it's ok to extract information from suspects. Just treat them like you would if you're trying to bust some criminal ring, they are after all, criminals.

However when people start talking about how Flamethrowers and Mustard gas needs to be brought back, you have to question it. There is a line we mustn't cross otherwise we'd just end up being like them.
Ya, do you honestly believe, criminals do not "slip and fall" resulting in a black eye in the interogation rooms? Believe me, if a kid was help hostage at an undisclosed place facing death, the person in custody who knows all about WILL talk one way or another.

Do not expect to win a war by tieing your OWN hands behind your back
But won't torture get weak innocent people to confess things they've never done? I know that torture is harsh, and I don't know how much I could take myself. Wouldn't you, maybe, if you were innocent, simply confess to some made up thing in the end?

-konfusion
Very good point there.
2007-07-21 09:16:01
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6768

sergeriver wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

Spark wrote:

Great idea! The US is so much better than Islamic crazies, even if they do the same things!
Yes, we tend to cut off peoples head and post it on a website.
Link pls.
It is a secret.  You need to be a member of Skull and Bones to view it.
2007-07-21 09:31:21
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6451|The Land of Scott Walker
If it'll save lives, water board away.  It makes the person "think" they're going to drown, it's purely psychological.  We're not supposed to use physical torture, so what option is left?  Psychological of course.  We cannot get information by giving them a cup of coffee and asking pretty please with sugar on top.  As lowing said, we'll most certainly lose any conflict in which we're worried about being nice to people who hold information that will save lives.  And when another attack happens because we didn't get the information, the elected Dems will be having a party and pointing fingers at the people who "didn't do anything to prevent another attack".  The whiners are going to kill us all because they think war with terrorists who aren't man enough to wear uniforms has to be conducted nicely.  They actually think physical and psychological torture are equally bad. In this case, the ends justify the means.  Get that information, save lives, and wipe out the terrorists.

Last edited by Stingray24 (2007-07-21 09:36:20)

2007-07-21 11:49:10
PureFodder
Member
+225|6292

lowing wrote:

Leave it to liberal apologists and appeasers to determine that torture of terrorists to extract info that could save tens of thousands of innocent civilians in a terrorist attack, is a bad thing.

These same liberals will also be the first in line to first celebrate a perceived Bush failure, then bitch, piss and moan at the failure of the US govt. for letting the attack happen without doing something about it.


God, I hate liberals
Leave it to short sighted conservatives to insist on torturing suspects which then inspires a hundred more people to become terrorists to fight against the appauling torturing enemy.

Stop one terrorist plot, incite a hundred more. Good idea.

Anyone here been through psychological torture? If not then there's no possible way you can determine if it's worse than physical torture or not.

 

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