GATOR591957
Member
+84|6597

Kmarion wrote:

GATOR591957 wrote:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0509010170sep01,1,5853346.story
Thanks but I think I will listen listen to the chief of engineers for the corps rather than a A Democrat in Louisiana trying to blame Bush.
"Strock also denied that escalating costs from the war in Iraq contributed to reductions in funding for hurricane projects in Louisiana, as some critics have suggested. Records show that corps funding for the Louisiana projects has generally decreased in recent years."

Which war was Clinton fighting we he cut the funding to the levee's? Bush was following the trend Clinton had laid down. Which is  kinda like what Clinton did to the intelligence agencies when he followed Bush Sr.'s trend of cut backs.  But lets be honest, none of it matters since the the Corp.(The guys doing the work) acknowledge that funding was not an issue and the flooding would have happened anyways. Nothing they could have done within reason would have stopped the flooding. Mother Nature is a bitch of a whore.

sergeriver wrote:

I think you are missing the most important point.  American citizens from NO are having a real tough time and nobody seems to care about them.  Kmarion you are bringing numbers and projections, these people are suffering since 2005 coz of this.  I can't believe the federal government couldn't solve their problems, despite if the government of Louisiana sucks.  And most documentaries I saw and the articles I read show that there was a lack of funds.  Who's lying?  And how can people say "it's their problem, those people were told to leave a week before, but the bastards stayed".
Serge you are suggesting that they have been completely abandoned and that is simply not the case. The disaster area was the size of Great Britain, it's going to take a bit longer to rebuild. It's more complex than throwing money at the problem as fast as you can. Otherwise you get crap like this.

AP wrote:

But an Associated Press analysis of government data obtained under the federal Freedom of Information Act suggests the government might not have been careful enough with its checkbook as it gave out nearly $5.3 billion in aid to storm victims. The analysis found the government regularly gave money to more homes in some neighborhoods than the number of homes that actually existed.

The pattern was repeated in nearly 100 neighborhoods damaged by the hurricanes. At least 162,750 homes that didn’t exist before the storms may have received a total of more than $1 billion in improper or illegal payments, the AP found.
If you truly think that Americans do not care about what happened in New Orleans than I can honestly say you are clueless to what we have done to try and support them. Even the evil corporations chipped in. You say "despite the government of Louisiana sucks". Mismanagement has much to do with their suffering still today. You are cherry picking in your attempt to hold someone accountable. It was a Natural Disaster, don't degrade the genrosisty and compassion by making it political.
I believe if you look closely you will see  quote from your beloved Commander.

Last edited by GATOR591957 (2007-07-19 09:20:16)

ReDevilJR
Member
+106|6321

GATOR591957 wrote:

ReDevilJR wrote:

The local government in New Orleans was corrupt as it is. They had a weeks advance to leave the area as it is. Why would you live in an area that is under sea-level, held back by a levee that hadn't been updated in some 20 - 30 years?
I've emailed this thread to a friend that lives in New Orleans.  I'm hoping he will respond to your post.  People that don't live in the region have no comprehension of the history and flavor that once was New Orleans.  Why would people live below sea level.  Why do people live in Florida where they are hit by hurricanes, Kansas where Dorothy and Toto are real life experiences, California land of the Earthquakes I guess the same reason I live in AZ where it's bee 116 degrees.  Outwardly makes no sense.
Florida has active escape routes in the event of a hurricane, so people can LEAVE, yes LEAVE there homes! I know it's a big deal to leave the land that you lived at. You cannot be that possessed about not leaving your homes in the event of a hurricane, it's impractical. (Yes, it was a tragedy of what happened.) However, most if not all could've been prevented if everyone had left their homes.

I live in Buffalo, yeah, it snows who cares?

We had an October Surprise storm this past year, where it snowed October 12th. My power was out for 8 days. Our local government had devised a plan to help everyone that got hit. That included calling workers from out of town, from other states to come in and help restore everyone's power, and setting up 'home bases' for all the workers to boost efficiency. All of that was thought out in a day or two. All the plans were in action the day before the storm.

If it was a storm big enough where we were advised to leave our homes and head somewhere, we wouldn't hesitate to do so. Screw history, if we're talking about life and death, than yeah I wanna' get the hell out...

What I'm trying to say is is that there IS a HUGE difference between our local government and others throughout the states. It really shows how much more effective ours is at times of crises'...
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|6738

ReDevilJR wrote:

Florida has active escape routes in the event of a hurricane, so people can LEAVE, yes LEAVE there homes! I know it's a big deal to leave the land that you lived at. You cannot be that possessed about not leaving your homes in the event of a hurricane, it's impractical. (Yes, it was a tragedy of what happened.) However, most if not all could've been prevented if everyone had left their homes.
most of the people who did not leave their homes did not have the means to leave ie no car and you can only walk so far
ReDevilJR
Member
+106|6321
I suppose if they didn't rely on welfare, there wouldn't be a problem. You do whatever you have to do to get the hell out of there.
-101-InvaderZim
Member
+42|6814|Waikato, Aotearoa
He cares more about the massive oilfields than he does about the average american
ReDevilJR
Member
+106|6321
How did Oil get into this argument? Maybe if people weren't lazy asses, there wouldn't be a problem... "Bush where ma' money at?" Seriously, the welfare system should be far more limited... Exclusively to be used only by those incapable to work because of physical/mental disabilities.

Last edited by ReDevilJR (2007-07-20 09:08:09)

xfirestormx
Member
+0|6098

ReDevilJR wrote:

How did Oil get into this argument? Maybe if people weren't lazy asses, there wouldn't be a problem... "Bush where ma' money at?" Seriously, the welfare system should be far more limited... Exclusively to be used only by those incapable to work because of physical/mental disabilities.
please, stop fueling the stereotype that northerners are elitists. i know a lot of northerners that would be offended by what you are saying (you know, the racism?). its funny that you bring up how your local government is so much better than other cities' governments when you only get snow. im sorry, but i live in the northeast for 9 months out of the year and snow is nothing compared to the destructive force of a hurricane. ask anyone from florida, they know a whole lot about it. new orleans is lucky in that it only really had 1 hurricane hit in the past few years. yes, a snow storm is no picnic, but the point of gator's post was that all places have their flaws and weaknesses. a weakness doesnt mean that we should move.

now, moving on, florida has escape routes? so does new orleans. did you read my post at all? 80% of the city was evacuated, and the real reason our homes were destroyed were the levees that the federal government built and then did not update did not hold up. plus, many of our citizens are poor and do not have the means to evacuate. or they were elderly (i believe the largest percentage of people who stayed were elderly) and could not or did not want to leave their homes.

secondly, its easy for you to say that there shouldnt be a welfare system. you live in a place where "83% of students who graduate [from public schools] go on to college" (wikipedia). our public school valedictorians get 7's on the ACT. and then you wonder why people are angry at the government and dont feel bad for taking welfare? are you kidding? lets put ourselves in their position. you can go to public school and learn as much as possible, work for burgerking for just over 5 dollars an hour (cant even buy a meal for one with that) and most likely get robbed on the way home from work a few days every month, OR drop out of school, sell drugs to rich people (who, as far as you know, are the reason why you are where you are), and go on welfare without having to work. you see, its all about respect. poor people are rarely shown respect, so they dont show any respect to the powers that be (the government). either choice that you make (burgerking worker vs drug dealer), you will be belittled by people who dont really know anything about the situation because they have no exposure to it, and therefore are able to stop themselves from empathizing with the lower class and cast (poorly conceived) judgments about you.

but devil, you arent one of those people, i know. i mean youre not one of those people who talk about something even though they dont have any point of reference because they are so far detached from the situation in location as well as mentality that it just makes me laugh at the absurdity of their hypocrisies. i mean, you just live in one of the safest cities in america with one of the best standards of living and the fewest poor people. yeah, you arent one of those people.

lol so getting back on topic: ultimately your argument is that just because we have large flaws in new orleans, the citizens should stop living there. especially since other cities like buffalo are able to survive smaller disasters with ease and have good governments that supposedly serve the public better than new orleans' government?

now, using that SAME way of thinking, but applied to an issue like alcoholism, we can conclude that no alcoholic should EVER ask for help because people who are moderate drinkers are able to deal with their hangovers every once in a while. does that make sense to you?

Last edited by xfirestormx (2007-07-20 16:55:34)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6728|Argentina
Racism, stereotyping, bigotry Ftw.
ReDevilJR
Member
+106|6321

xfirestormx wrote:

ReDevilJR wrote:

How did Oil get into this argument? Maybe if people weren't lazy asses, there wouldn't be a problem... "Bush where ma' money at?" Seriously, the welfare system should be far more limited... Exclusively to be used only by those incapable to work because of physical/mental disabilities.
please, stop fueling the stereotype that northerners are elitists. i know a lot of northerners that would be offended by what you are saying (you know, the racism?). its funny that you bring up how your local government is so much better than other cities' governments when you only get snow. im sorry, but i live in the northeast for 9 months out of the year and snow is nothing compared to the destructive force of a hurricane. ask anyone from florida, they know a whole lot about it. new orleans is lucky in that it only really had 1 hurricane hit in the past few years. yes, a snow storm is no picnic, but the point of gator's post was that all places have their flaws and weaknesses. a weakness doesnt mean that we should move.

now, moving on, florida has escape routes? so does new orleans. did you read my post at all? 80% of the city was evacuated, and the real reason our homes were destroyed were the levees that the federal government built and then did not update did not hold up. plus, many of our citizens are poor and do not have the means to evacuate. or they were elderly (i believe the largest percentage of people who stayed were elderly) and could not or did not want to leave their homes.

secondly, its easy for you to say that there shouldnt be a welfare system. you live in a place where "83% of students who graduate [from public schools] go on to college" (wikipedia). our public school valedictorians get 7's on the ACT. and then you wonder why people are angry at the government and dont feel bad for taking welfare? are you kidding? lets put ourselves in their position. you can go to public school and learn as much as possible, work for burgerking for just over 5 dollars an hour (cant even buy a meal for one with that) and most likely get robbed on the way home from work a few days every month, OR drop out of school, sell drugs to rich people (who, as far as you know, are the reason why you are where you are), and go on welfare without having to work. you see, its all about respect. poor people are rarely shown respect, so they dont show any respect to the powers that be (the government). either choice that you make (burgerking worker vs drug dealer), you will be belittled by people who dont really know anything about the situation because they have no exposure to it, and therefore are able to stop themselves from empathizing with the lower class and cast (poorly conceived) judgments about you.

but devil, you arent one of those people, i know. i mean youre not one of those people who talk about something even though they dont have any point of reference because they are so far detached from the situation in location as well as mentality that it just makes me laugh at the absurdity of their hypocrisies. i mean, you just live in one of the safest cities in america with one of the best standards of living and the fewest poor people. yeah, you arent one of those people.

lol so getting back on topic: ultimately your argument is that just because we have large flaws in new orleans, the citizens should stop living there. especially since other cities like buffalo are able to survive smaller disasters with ease and have good governments that supposedly serve the public better than new orleans' government?

now, using that SAME way of thinking, but applied to an issue like alcoholism, we can conclude that no alcoholic should EVER ask for help because people who are moderate drinkers are able to deal with their hangovers every once in a while. does that make sense to you?
I'm sorry, did I offend you by the truth? Only snow, okay, well when all of the leaves are still on the branches, and it's ice snow coming down, taking all the trees down with it, then I suppose you can consider it somewhat of a serious storm.

I asked people from the south about hurricanes when I was there on vacation, they don't mind them that much, they LEAVE when they're told to, An ENTIRE WEEKS ADVANCE and it works out. They were saying it's better to live there year round worrying about hurricanes several times thought the year as opposed to killer temps. out west, and the snow up north. Like I said, wherever you'd prefer living that suits your way best.

Did not want to leave their homes? Again, if you're fully aware of a hurricane coming your way, you get the hell out. Seriously, all the procrastination shit pisses me off. To top it off with the laziness pointing the blame DIRECTLY at Bush. Maybe people should be less dependent on the government to do EVERYTHING for them. I personally see it as doing basic services for the people, I'm a mature enough person to know what I'd like to spend my personal money on.

I NEVER said there SHOULDN'T be a welfare system, simply far more limited.

This comes back to spending your money appropriately, that means budgeting your expenses. It's not difficult. If you live in a bad neighborhood, MOVE OUT. What's holding you back? Sell your personal belongings that you don't need, and move on...

Yes, I do live in a nice neighborhood. I am Optimistic. (May not seem like I am, but I do take both sides into consideration) However, I seize opportunities when I see them. I Work two part time jobs, Save half what I make. Go to school, Overall averages in the 90's, And I play football. I don't expect people to hand things over to me, I earn them.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't live there at all, simply that the one's that are complaining about the situation should flee somewhere else that suits their situation the best.

If you need help from alcoholism, get it. But don't expect someone to have an eye on you at all times knowing what you're doing to help you along the way everyday, every night.
xfirestormx
Member
+0|6098
@devil
youre missing my point, im saying that people have a right to complain because if we had levees that were worth anything, there wouldnt be a problem. also, if we didnt have insurance company basically committing fraud right in front of our faces, there wouldnt be a problem. and if the government would stop appraising our houses for 50-100 thousand dollars less than they were worth before katrina in order to save money on the money that they are OBLIGATED to give out, we wouldnt have a problem. but unfortunately, we have those problems, and theres nothing wrong with asking for the problems to be solved. we arent complaining "oh no, a hurricane hit our house. why didnt you do something about it?". that would be idiotic. we are complaining about the constant inadequacies of the government, its organizations, and the private insurance companies.

older people were the main victims of the hurricane because they didnt want to (or couldnt) evacuate and no one was there to force them. most people evacuated even before there was a mandatory evacuation if they had the means to do so (again, 80%). so i dont know why that is even a topic.

if you honestly think moving out of the projects is as easy as just leaving... i dont even know what to say. sell all your stuff? thats nothing. what house in any safe area is less than 200,000 dollars? you have to get money to get out, and you get money by getting a job (illegal or legal) and / or welfare. all of those scenarios (except for the "illegal" job) take a very long time. i mean dont you think if they could move out, they would? do you think that the lower class is happy with the way they live? killing each other and robbing and getting hooked on every drug possible because they are so depressed because they have no hope? why would anyone want to live like that? rationality tells me that the lower class is trying to get out but cannot. its not a question of laziness because many of them work way harder than the average white collar worker. so what is it? i cant help but conclude that it must be the 4.5% of unemployed people that are REQUIRED to be unemployed for our economy to function. and i also cant help but conclude that it must be a continuous cycle of poverty instead of random "unemployed" status among citizens. this would probably explain why 28% of black people are below the poverty line while only 8% of white people are below the poverty line. just saying "work harder" doesnt cure the hundreds of years of oppression that built this cycle. our government dug their graves, we cant be pissed for them wanting to climb out without supporting the very system that put them there (and continues to hold them down).

so, what i am saying is that not everyone is able to get 2 part time jobs. my guess is 2 part time jobs in new orleans probably makes less than 1 part time job in buffalo. the most you could make here (pre-katrina) was the minimal wage of 5.15. so you cant even equate getting a job in a more well off area to getting a job in a poor area. its totally different. the bottom line is that you are handed things (opportunities, a head start, a safe neighborhood) that other people are not. dont think that just because you work that automatically makes the playing field even. now, dont get me wrong, im not saying that there is something wrong with living in a safe neighborhood and having a good job and a good starting point in life. that stuff is great, i was fortunate enough to have it as well. what im saying is that everyone should have it, and if they dont receive it, they have a right to be angry.

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