Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6450|The Land of Scott Walker
This columnist makes some excellent points.  It’s obvious The Dems don’t care what happens to US business or jobs as long as they can put another feather in their hats from the envirowackos.  Give me a safe larger car or truck that gets 20-30mpg any day over a little jellybean deathtrap that supposedly gets 40mpg.  I’ve only been in 3 accidents in 12 years of driving since I’ve avoided many more with quick reflexes and defensive driving.  My larger vehicle saved my life in 2 of the 3 accidents.  I wouldn’t be here to make this thread had I been driving a little Prius, Yaris, or something like it.  I'd be part of the twisted heap of what used to be cheap plastic and "crumple zones".  I can hardly fit in those cars already, let alone if they start crumpling.  Gas mileage isn’t everything.   

(emphasis and smiley faces mine)
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articl … lunch.html

The senator was vexed. The U.S. auto companies were resisting attempts by her and other Senate well-meaners to impose a radical rise in fuel efficiency by 2017. Why can't they be more like the Chinese, she complained. Or, to quote Sen. Dianne Feinstein precisely: "What the China situation, or the other countries' situation, shows is that these automakers, in all of these countries, build the automobile that the requirements for mileage state. And they don't fight it, they just do it."

Yes. That is how things work in Communist Party dictatorships. It is odd to hold up China as a model of corporate-government relations. It is also poor salesmanship. Just a week after Feinstein made that statement, the Brilliance BS6 sedan -- "a car with which [China] wanted to conquer Europe's automobile market" – failed a German crash test so miserably that it may be banned from Europe , reported the European news agency AFX News. "It was the second time in less than two years that a Chinese-made car has failed the test, following the spectacular failure of the Landwind sport-utility vehicle made by Jiangling Motors 18 months ago." 

You get what you pay for. When you build lighter cars with more fuel efficiency, you know that ultimately -- even with the best (let alone Chinese) technology -- safety is compromised. That happened three decades ago when U.S. mileage efficiency rose dramatically in response to the oil shocks of the '70s. It will probably happen again.

Now we may, as a society, decide that the trade-off is worth it. We may reason that fuel inefficiency leads to dependency on foreign oil which in turn leads us to lives lost in other ways -- such as wars to defend our interests in the oil-rich Middle East and elsewhere. But what we cannot deny is that there are trade-offs. What is fundamentally wrong with the energy bill the Senate passed last week and with the debate leading up to it is the chronic, almost pathological, refusal to recognize that there are such trade-offs.

Look at the major provisions of the bill. First, a mandated 40 percent increase in fuel-efficiency standards for automobile companies. What's wrong with that? Apart from the safety issue, there is the issue of cost. Car prices will rise. That could in turn drive one or all of the Big Three U.S. auto companies, all reeling financially, into insolvency.

That might be a worthy trade-off. This country desperately needs better gas mileage. But it does not come free. The most efficient and equitable way to both increase mileage and reduce gasoline use (increased mileage alone can induce people, perversely, to drive more) is with a new gasoline tax, refunded by means of reduced payroll taxes to make it revenue neutral. But there is absolutely no congressional or administration support for that, because it is too honest and open an acknowledgment that there is no free lunch. The reason Congress loves corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standards is precisely that they hide the cost -- in the sticker price of a new car. Whatever blame there is for the unfairness of life -- that energy efficiency is not free -- goes to the auto company rather than the mandating body, namely Congress.

That's the great attraction of ethanol, too. Another free lunch. The Senate bill mandates a quintupling of ethanol use by 2022. That might be a good idea, but it also has costs. With huge tracts of land now being turned over to grow corn for fuel, the price of corn already is rising, as is the price of other foods whose cropland has been taken over. The beauty of ethanol? It hides the price of purported energy efficiency in the most unlikely of places -- your cornflakes.

Mercifully, the Senate failed to pass a third proposed mandate from on high, a decree that power companies produce 15 percent of electricity from alternative sources by 2020. Because solar is expensive, wind is inconsistent in places such as the South, and geothermal is not exactly bubbling up in most states of the union, this mandate would have meant higher electricity prices.

I have no objection to paying more to reduce our dependency on foreign energy. But it is hard to conceive of a more politically dishonest and economically inefficient way to do it than with mandates that make private industry do Congress's dirty work, hide the true cost of energy efficiency and perpetuate the fantasy of the tax-free lunch.

[email protected]
(c) 2007, The Washington Post Writers Group
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6741|Salt Lake City

With the safety features of new cars, you are actually as likely to survive an accident as you would with a larger car that lacks them.

As far as electricity goes, that's not a big deal either.  Electricity need not be produced in, or near, the geographical location to where it will be used.

And now for the mandates.  Unfortunately, it often requires the governemtn to step in and require that changes be made, or American companies would simply continue down the same old path to nowhere.

You can sit and say that the government isn't really telling you the cost of these changes, but you're not seeing the cost of failing to make them.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6587|SE London

Do you know that most big American cars get very low safety ratings in Europe?

It's true. None have 5 star ratings.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6450|The Land of Scott Walker

Bertster7 wrote:

Do you know that most big American cars get very low safety ratings in Europe?

It's true. None have 5 star ratings.
I honestly don't care what pointy-headed researchers in Europe or the US think.  The fact is that in 2 high speed accidents, my all American large vehicle saved my life and that of my wife and it had nothing to do with a 5 star rating that someone in a lab checked off on a clipboard.  A smaller car would not have withstood the head on impact at 60mph even with it's fancy crumple zones.  Airbag?  It would've broken my arm because of how I'm comfortable holding the steering wheel.  Collapsing steering column?  It would've come through my chest instead of stopping short of it.  My cousin and my uncle were driving a little jellybean car and payed the price in an accident just like the one I had.  I got away with some bruises and aching muscles but they weren't so lucky.  Both of them had broken legs and my cousin had to have a rod put in his leg to heal the compound fracture.  The engine of the car entered the passenger compartment, so these researchers and their ratings can go fly a kite.

I fully support improved fuel mileage, but on a more realistic timeframe and not at the cost of safety.  I'm not driving a car that might save me a couple dollars at the pump but makes me wonder what will happen to myself and my family if the worst happens on the road.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6777|PNW

Bertster7 wrote:

Do you know that most big American cars get very low safety ratings in Europe?

It's true. None have 5 star ratings.
At the same time, whenever I see massive accidents over here, it's usually the hulking metal vehicles I see with minimally-injured passengers. We have oil, but we'd rather use everyone else's first. Warcraft 2 strategy!

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-06-29 14:28:41)

KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6637|949

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Do you know that most big American cars get very low safety ratings in Europe?

It's true. None have 5 star ratings.
At the same time, whenever I see massive accidents over here, it's usually the hulking metal vehicles I see with minimally-injured passengers. We have oil, but we'd rather use everyone else's first. Warcraft 2 strategy!
Yes, but what happens when two Ford Excursions run into each other?

I drive a Saab now, and drove a Volvo before, so I am not too worried about a car accident injuring me.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6777|PNW

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Do you know that most big American cars get very low safety ratings in Europe?

It's true. None have 5 star ratings.
At the same time, whenever I see massive accidents over here, it's usually the hulking metal vehicles I see with minimally-injured passengers. We have oil, but we'd rather use everyone else's first. Warcraft 2 strategy!
Yes, but what happens when two Ford Excursions run into each other?

I drive a Saab now, and drove a Volvo before, so I am not too worried about a car accident injuring me.
That's like asking what happens if two planes run into each other, as opposed to what happens if a plane runs into a water balloon. A heavy vehicle isn't going to guarantee safety, but I'd rather be sitting in it than the dozens of compact crushmobiles I see around me.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-06-29 14:37:26)

Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6450|The Land of Scott Walker
I have always wondered why crash tests involve the vehicle hitting a stationary wall when most accidents involve at least two vehicles.  If there's two vehicles that would mean closing speed is involved and much more force in the impact.  My car was hit head on at 60mph by another car traveling at the least the same speed and I think he was going faster than that.  I’d like to see what happens with these supposedly 5-star rated cars when they are hit by another car head on at highway speed.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6291
This seems to be one area where people make some very unscientific conclusions.
Big, heavy, solid, metal car = hard to deform.
Small lightweight, plastic, deformable car = easier to deform.
Lower kinetic energy + higher energy absorbing crumple zones = slower impact and less deceleration for the occupants.
Lower deceleration = less damage to you.
The reason us Europeans like our nice destructible cars is we appear to more readily appreciate the idea of crumple zones etc. We don't care if the car's a write off, that's what insurance is for. It's our safety that's important.

I'm sure your kids will be just thrilled about inheriting a slightly damaged car......

If you skipped physics class
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6587|SE London

PureFodder wrote:

This seems to be one area where people make some very unscientific conclusions.
Big, heavy, solid, metal car = hard to deform.
Small lightweight, plastic, deformable car = easier to deform.
Lower kinetic energy + higher energy absorbing crumple zones = slower impact and less deceleration for the occupants.
Lower deceleration = less damage to you.
The reason us Europeans like our nice destructible cars is we appear to more readily appreciate the idea of crumple zones etc. We don't care if the car's a write off, that's what insurance is for. It's our safety that's important.

I'm sure your kids will be just thrilled about inheriting a slightly damaged car......

If you skipped physics class
That's the whole thing. It's all based on gut feeling. There's no real logic to any of the arguments.

It's just people trying to justify having big cars, when there really is no justification for the vast majority of people.

Most American cars are shit. The rest of the world has known that for years - hence the collapsing US auto industry.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6637|949

PureFodder wrote:

This seems to be one area where people make some very unscientific conclusions.
Big, heavy, solid, metal car = hard to deform.
Small lightweight, plastic, deformable car = easier to deform.
Lower kinetic energy + higher energy absorbing crumple zones = slower impact and less deceleration for the occupants.
Lower deceleration = less damage to you.
The reason us Europeans like our nice destructible cars is we appear to more readily appreciate the idea of crumple zones etc. We don't care if the car's a write off, that's what insurance is for. It's our safety that's important.

I'm sure your kids will be just thrilled about inheriting a slightly damaged car......

If you skipped physics class
Yeah, but big, heavy, metal car that isn't solid = very easy to deform.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6228|Escea

I always liked this, the more engine block in front of you, the more the other car has to crash through.


This SEAT is a relatively small car, though car vs truck doesn't pan out as well as car vs car.
https://paultan.org/wp-content/truck_vs_car_crash.jpg

This is the aftermath of a large pickup after striking a smaller car
https://www.musclecars.faketrix.com/content/crashes-pics/large/head-on-into-highway-patrol-vehicle.jpg

and finally a video showing the effects of a truck crashing into a number of small cars.
They are older cars mind, note the C2.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc … ;plindex=1
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6228|Escea

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

This seems to be one area where people make some very unscientific conclusions.
Big, heavy, solid, metal car = hard to deform.
Small lightweight, plastic, deformable car = easier to deform.
Lower kinetic energy + higher energy absorbing crumple zones = slower impact and less deceleration for the occupants.
Lower deceleration = less damage to you.
The reason us Europeans like our nice destructible cars is we appear to more readily appreciate the idea of crumple zones etc. We don't care if the car's a write off, that's what insurance is for. It's our safety that's important.

I'm sure your kids will be just thrilled about inheriting a slightly damaged car......

If you skipped physics class
Yeah, but big, heavy, metal car that isn't solid = very easy to deform.
That's true, Range Rovers aren't the safest vehicles in the world in crashes, especially Freelanders.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6291

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

This seems to be one area where people make some very unscientific conclusions.
Big, heavy, solid, metal car = hard to deform.
Small lightweight, plastic, deformable car = easier to deform.
Lower kinetic energy + higher energy absorbing crumple zones = slower impact and less deceleration for the occupants.
Lower deceleration = less damage to you.
The reason us Europeans like our nice destructible cars is we appear to more readily appreciate the idea of crumple zones etc. We don't care if the car's a write off, that's what insurance is for. It's our safety that's important.

I'm sure your kids will be just thrilled about inheriting a slightly damaged car......

If you skipped physics class
Yeah, but big, heavy, metal car that isn't solid = very easy to deform.
Steel doesn't crumple very well, plus heavy cars have more kinetic energy to remove in the first place.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6450|The Land of Scott Walker
Your examples keep showing walls, not two colliding cars. 

Stingray24 wrote:

I have always wondered why crash tests involve the vehicle hitting a stationary wall when most accidents involve at least two vehicles.  If there's two vehicles that would mean closing speed is involved and much more force in the impact.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6410|North Carolina

Krauthammer wrote:

The senator was vexed. The U.S. auto companies were resisting attempts by her and other Senate well-meaners to impose a radical rise in fuel efficiency by 2017. Why can't they be more like the Chinese, she complained. Or, to quote Sen. Dianne Feinstein precisely: "What the China situation, or the other countries' situation, shows is that these automakers, in all of these countries, build the automobile that the requirements for mileage state. And they don't fight it, they just do it."

Yes. That is how things work in Communist Party dictatorships. It is odd to hold up China as a model of corporate-government relations. It is also poor salesmanship.
Yes...  It is odd to praise the Chinese way of doing things.  It's just as odd that Clinton and the Republican Congress dubbed China as our "most favored trade partner."  But hey, we've been putting trade ahead of ethics for fucking decades.  I'm sure Krauthammer is thoroughly familiar with this principle and would normally support it.

Of course, if we hold up China as an example for purposes of raising fuel mileage standards, that's just EEEEVIL.

Nevermind the fact that we have some of the slackest fuel standards on the planet, or that the Bush administration has already thrown billions of corporate welfare at our automakers for so-called hydrogen fuel-cell research without any strings attached in the way of requiring actual results from this funding....

Krauthammer wrote:

Just a week after Feinstein made that statement, the Brilliance BS6 sedan -- "a car with which [China] wanted to conquer Europe's automobile market" – failed a German crash test so miserably that it may be banned from Europe , reported the European news agency AFX News. "It was the second time in less than two years that a Chinese-made car has failed the test, following the spectacular failure of the Landwind sport-utility vehicle made by Jiangling Motors 18 months ago." 

You get what you pay for. When you build lighter cars with more fuel efficiency, you know that ultimately -- even with the best (let alone Chinese) technology -- safety is compromised. That happened three decades ago when U.S. mileage efficiency rose dramatically in response to the oil shocks of the '70s. It will probably happen again.
Yes, of course...  Those lighter and more fuel efficient cars made in Japan are just the same as the Chinese ones, right?  Our great American land yachts are selling so well next to the Civics, Accords, and Camrys of the world.  They're SOOOO dangerous too....  lol

Krauthammer wrote:

Now we may, as a society, decide that the trade-off is worth it. We may reason that fuel inefficiency leads to dependency on foreign oil which in turn leads us to lives lost in other ways -- such as wars to defend our interests in the oil-rich Middle East and elsewhere. But what we cannot deny is that there are trade-offs. What is fundamentally wrong with the energy bill the Senate passed last week and with the debate leading up to it is the chronic, almost pathological, refusal to recognize that there are such trade-offs.

Look at the major provisions of the bill. First, a mandated 40 percent increase in fuel-efficiency standards for automobile companies. What's wrong with that? Apart from the safety issue, there is the issue of cost. Car prices will rise. That could in turn drive one or all of the Big Three U.S. auto companies, all reeling financially, into insolvency.
Hmmm...  That's funny....  Honda has been leading the pack when it comes to fuel efficiency, and they've done it without any funding from the American government or from stagnating our fuel standards here.  By a very strange coincidence, they've also been rising in sales while most American automakers have been losing market share.

Could it just be that the big American automakers are destined to fail anyway -- with the sole exception of truck sales?....

I mean, it coudn't possibly be a situation of people consciously buying Japanese cars because of their usually better fuel mileage and reliability than most American ones....

Krauthammer wrote:

That might be a worthy trade-off. This country desperately needs better gas mileage. But it does not come free. The most efficient and equitable way to both increase mileage and reduce gasoline use (increased mileage alone can induce people, perversely, to drive more) is with a new gasoline tax, refunded by means of reduced payroll taxes to make it revenue neutral. But there is absolutely no congressional or administration support for that, because it is too honest and open an acknowledgment that there is no free lunch. The reason Congress loves corporate average fuel economy (CAFE) standards is precisely that they hide the cost -- in the sticker price of a new car. Whatever blame there is for the unfairness of life -- that energy efficiency is not free -- goes to the auto company rather than the mandating body, namely Congress.
Well, this is one area what Krauthammer and I agree.  Reducing payroll tax even by itself would do the vast majority of Americans far more good than a decrease in income tax.  You can't deduct payroll taxes, but you can deduct income taxes.

Krauthammer wrote:

That's the great attraction of ethanol, too. Another free lunch. The Senate bill mandates a quintupling of ethanol use by 2022. That might be a good idea, but it also has costs. With huge tracts of land now being turned over to grow corn for fuel, the price of corn already is rising, as is the price of other foods whose cropland has been taken over. The beauty of ethanol? It hides the price of purported energy efficiency in the most unlikely of places -- your cornflakes.
Well, if we're throwing agribusiness subsidies every year already, then shouldn't we angle the subsidies at increasing ethanol production?

Krauthammer wrote:

Mercifully, the Senate failed to pass a third proposed mandate from on high, a decree that power companies produce 15 percent of electricity from alternative sources by 2020. Because solar is expensive, wind is inconsistent in places such as the South, and geothermal is not exactly bubbling up in most states of the union, this mandate would have meant higher electricity prices.
God forbid we stop behaving like negligent energy hogs....  or that we give a damn about air pollution....

Krauthammer wrote:

I have no objection to paying more to reduce our dependency on foreign energy. But it is hard to conceive of a more politically dishonest and economically inefficient way to do it than with mandates that make private industry do Congress's dirty work, hide the true cost of energy efficiency and perpetuate the fantasy of the tax-free lunch.
Agreed...  It is very dishonest for government to have to intervene so much in the market, but then again, our long history of corporate welfare has now made it necessary to do so.  Had we never thrown such huge "tax incentives" at Big Oil over the years, the "market" would have naturally allowed more alternative means of energy to develop as a given method became less economically affordable.
l41e
Member
+677|6653

...Boils down to: I don't want to give up my big car and you can't make me, nah-na-na-na-nah-nah.

Last edited by k30dxedle (2007-06-29 17:01:50)

Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6450|The Land of Scott Walker
My "big" car gets just as good of gas mileage of any Japanese car.  A brand new Toyota Camry with a 4 cylinder is advertised at 33mpg and the V6 model gets 31mpg.  I get 30mph on highway with a 19 year old Oldsmobile with a 3.8 liter V6.  What about the SUV?  A brand new Toyota Sequoia with a V8 gets 18mpg highway, my 94 4x4 SUV I gets 20mpg highway.  So quit feeding people the "lighter, more fuel-efficient" bs.  It's simply not true.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6410|North Carolina

Stingray24 wrote:

My "big" car gets just as good of gas mileage of any Japanese car.  A brand new Toyota Camry with a 4 cylinder is advertised at 33mpg and the V6 model gets 31mpg.  I get 30mph on highway with a 19 year old Oldsmobile with a 3.8 liter V6.  What about the SUV?  A brand new Toyota Sequoia with a V8 gets 18mpg highway, my 94 4x4 SUV I gets 20mpg highway.  So quit feeding people the "lighter, more fuel-efficient" bs.  It's simply not true.
Look at Honda's vehicles.  You'll see the difference.... and no, I don't own a Honda.

I actually drive a gas-guzzling Jeep Liberty, but that's another story altogether...  lol
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6450|The Land of Scott Walker
Honda Accord is actually worse - V6 29mpg highway, 4 cylinder 34 mpg highway.
PureFodder
Member
+225|6291

Stingray24 wrote:

So quit feeding people the "lighter, more fuel-efficient" bs.  It's simply not true.
Done much physics in your time?
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6450|The Land of Scott Walker
Aced it in high school.  Are you seriously arguing the fact that my 19 year old car's mileage nearly matches the new "lighter, more fuel-efficient" cars?
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6741|Salt Lake City

Stingray24 wrote:

Aced it in high school.  Are you seriously arguing the fact that my 19 year old car's mileage nearly matches the new "lighter, more fuel-efficient" cars?
Ahhh, another product of the US educational system I see.  It takes less work to move an object of less weight.  All things being equal, a vehicle of 2000K pounds will get better mileage than one of 2500 pounds.  Yes, there is engine technology, etc., but the fact of the matter is....the Japanese are kicking the US auto makers ass is this respect.

Face it...the US auto makers can't compete as is.  The Japs have exceptionaly high quality, the best overall gas mileage, and they do so with the some of the highest government crash test ratings.

Just quit trying to justify your unnecessary need to drive a massive hunk of steel that gets 8 gallons to the mile...and no that isn't a misspelling.


Ohhh, and by the way, I still have yet to see anyone address my point.  What will be the cost and consequences if we don't change our ways?  Is it really so costly to do it now, or later?

Last edited by Agent_Dung_Bomb (2007-06-29 21:09:59)

Anfidurl
Use the bumper, that's what its for!
+103|6598|Lexington, Kentucky

Stingray24 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Do you know that most big American cars get very low safety ratings in Europe?

It's true. None have 5 star ratings.
I honestly don't care what pointy-headed researchers in Europe or the US think.  The fact is that in 2 high speed accidents, my all American large vehicle saved my life and that of my wife and it had nothing to do with a 5 star rating that someone in a lab checked off on a clipboard.  A smaller car would not have withstood the head on impact at 60mph even with it's fancy crumple zones.  Airbag?  It would've broken my arm because of how I'm comfortable holding the steering wheel.  Collapsing steering column?  It would've come through my chest instead of stopping short of it.  My cousin and my uncle were driving a little jellybean car and payed the price in an accident just like the one I had.  I got away with some bruises and aching muscles but they weren't so lucky.  Both of them had broken legs and my cousin had to have a rod put in his leg to heal the compound fracture.  The engine of the car entered the passenger compartment, so these researchers and their ratings can go fly a kite.

I fully support improved fuel mileage, but on a more realistic timeframe and not at the cost of safety.  I'm not driving a car that might save me a couple dollars at the pump but makes me wonder what will happen to myself and my family if the worst happens on the road.
Ha. I'm proof that you are just well, lucky.

I was in an accident years ago, when I was a tween. An American Battleship of a car (Ford Crown Vic) crossed the center median on a highway here.
Crown Vic hit a Nissan pickup, which scattered debris. Our Plymouth Acclaim (remember Plymouth?) hit the debris, lost control, and hit the pickup.

The guy in the Crown Vic very nearly died, the whole front half of his car sheared off and crumpled into a mess.
The Plymouth Acclaim was still drivable, though with the passenger door jammed, and the front quarterpanel banged up.
The pickup had a bent frame/ twisted-up bed, and a cracked radiator.

If it were not for researchers, ratings, and safety guidelines, you'd have died as an infant most likely. (Researchers make vaccines, remember?)
Sorry your crash was so bad. But without the Eggheads, your crash would have most likely been fatal. (Researchers were behind the push for seatbelts in the 50's-60's.)

Edit again: Perhaps your argument would hold more water, were you arguing with someone less educated.

Last edited by Anfidurl (2007-06-29 21:19:49)

Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6450|The Land of Scott Walker
The fact is my car is getting 30mpg highway with 211K miles on it, Agent.  That's better than a BRAND NEW Accord V6 according the Honda's own website.  If that prompts you to insult me and the school I attended, so be it.  

I've compared US and Japanese cars in the same class and the fuel economy only differs by 1-3mpg in the city and 1-2mpg on the highway for cars with a V6 engine.  1-3mpg is vastly superior? Pffff.  The Pontiac GXP with a V8 only gets 2 mpg less than an Accord V6 and only 4 mpg less than a Toyota Camry V6!  Below is proof that US carmakers are doing just fine when comparing the fuel efficiency of the product they deliver with that of the competition.     

These are all off of the manufacturer websites:

Accord V6 -
20 city/ 29 hwy

Toyota Avalan/Camry -
22 city/ 31 hwy

Pontiac Grand Prix -
Sedan 20/30
GT      19/28
GXP (V8) 18/27

Chevy Impala -
LS         18/29
SS (V8) 16/24

Buick Lucerne -
Sedan  19/28
V8       17/25

Dodge Avenger -
19/28

Chrysler Sebring -
19/28

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