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2007-06-11 09:07:55
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6599|132 and Bush

Bertster7 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


So what do you have to say about the fact that the murder rate is higher in states with the death penalty than in states without it (or other countries without it for that matter)?

Places with the death penalty have higher homicide rates. That is simple fact. It must be very difficult to show that the death penalty acts as a detterent to would be murderers when you take this into consideration. The argument must be that there are other factors in these areas that mean the homicide rate would be even higher if it were not for the death penalty. Whilst other factors certainly could be relevant, I find it suspicious that the obvious statistical evidence is utterly contradictory.
I'd say if the death penalty wasn't law in those states the Murder rates would be even higher based on these studies.

Deter does not mean stop.
I find it interesting you debate a study you have not seen. Is your judgment bias flawed?
Why should that be the case? Why are these studies more credible than those they contradict?

Can you not see that the very fact that the murder rates in states with the death penalty and in countries with the death penalty is totally at odds with these claims? The fact that the vast majority of studies, conducted by a very wide range of institutions, also disagree with this particular study, which I have not had the opportunity to read, makes me doubt its findings.

The conclusion of the study commissioned by the UN was that:

The Death Penalty: A World-wide Perspective wrote:

it is not prudent to accept the hypothesis that capital punishment deters murder to a marginally greater extent than does the threat and application of the supposedly lesser punishment of life imprisonment
Why should I believe this study over those conducted by the US law enforcement community, the international community and the vast majority of academics? I don't see anything that makes this report seem in any way special, other than the fact that it disagrees with the majority.

The US is one of the very few highly developed countries with the death penalty, it also has an extremely high murder rate for a highly developed country. Why is this? It could be argued that the high availibility of firearms is a contributary factor, it could also be argued that the US has an inherently violent culture, the death penalty forming a part of that cultural acceptance of violence - but ultimately who knows, studies can only show so much and the fact that there have been so many studies about something so difficult to quantify, with wildly varying results, speaks volumes about the accuracy of all such studies.
I'm not saying it is more credible. However I am now arguing with four different people over this. None of which have seen the report in detail. What does that tell you? I have responded "Based on this studies results".
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-06-11 09:18:55
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6580|SE London

Kmarion wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


I'd say if the death penalty wasn't law in those states the Murder rates would be even higher based on these studies.

Deter does not mean stop.
I find it interesting you debate a study you have not seen. Is your judgment bias flawed?
Why should that be the case? Why are these studies more credible than those they contradict?

Can you not see that the very fact that the murder rates in states with the death penalty and in countries with the death penalty is totally at odds with these claims? The fact that the vast majority of studies, conducted by a very wide range of institutions, also disagree with this particular study, which I have not had the opportunity to read, makes me doubt its findings.

The conclusion of the study commissioned by the UN was that:

The Death Penalty: A World-wide Perspective wrote:

it is not prudent to accept the hypothesis that capital punishment deters murder to a marginally greater extent than does the threat and application of the supposedly lesser punishment of life imprisonment
Why should I believe this study over those conducted by the US law enforcement community, the international community and the vast majority of academics? I don't see anything that makes this report seem in any way special, other than the fact that it disagrees with the majority.

The US is one of the very few highly developed countries with the death penalty, it also has an extremely high murder rate for a highly developed country. Why is this? It could be argued that the high availibility of firearms is a contributary factor, it could also be argued that the US has an inherently violent culture, the death penalty forming a part of that cultural acceptance of violence - but ultimately who knows, studies can only show so much and the fact that there have been so many studies about something so difficult to quantify, with wildly varying results, speaks volumes about the accuracy of all such studies.
I'm not saying it is more credible. However I am now arguing with four different people over this. None of which have seen the report in detail. What does that tell you? I have responded "Based on this studies results".
If you post a link to the studies (if they are available), I'd be interested to read them.

Until then I have to go off what other peer reviewed studies (that I have read) say - not what studies, one of which has been found to be flawed by the National Academy of Sciences, say.

• Each execution deters an average of 18 murders, according to a 2003 nationwide study by professors at Emory University. (Other studies have estimated the deterred murders per execution at three, five and 14).
Speeding up executions would strengthen the deterrent effect. For every 2.75 years cut from time spent on death row, one murder would be prevented, according to a 2004 study by an Emory University professor.
Why?

What evidence is there to suggest this? Without seeing that, these studies are meaningless to me.
2007-06-11 09:22:28
topal63
. . .
+533|6716
http://www.rochester.edu/College/PSC/cl … timony.pdf
... but like nearly all claims of strong causal effects from any social or legal intervention, the claims of a "new deterrence" fall apart under scrutiny. These new studies are fraught with technical and conceptual errors: inappropriate methods of statistical analysis, failure to consider all relevant factors that drive murder rates, missing data on key variables in key states,  the tyranny of a few outlier states and years,  and the absence of any test for deterrence.
2007-06-11 09:23:10
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6599|132 and Bush

This story is as of yesterday. This would be where you would get the latest news on it. I'm going to sort threw the stories and see if I can't find more specifics.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-06-11 09:28:27
topal63
. . .
+533|6716

Kmarion wrote:

This story is as of yesterday. This would be where you would get the latest news on it. I'm going to sort threw the stories and see if I can't find more specifics.
(Death+Penalty+deterrence)
Here is a search on Google scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en … mp;spell=1

I am more likely to accept the scholarly opinion (rather than a journalist's opinion) that these studies (new & old) do not establish any causal link (as a deterrence) and moreover are actually riddled with errors when examined critically.

Last edited by topal63 (2007-06-11 09:29:41)

2007-06-11 09:31:09
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6553

Kmarion wrote:

I'd like to see a stat that shows how many people have been wrongfully executed in the United States. I'm sure it has happened in the past but in the modern era of forensics and indisputable DNA I would think those chances are not as likely.
Stats are irrelevant to me on this issue. Until law is 100% infallible (never gonna happen) the chance that the life of a single innocent might be taken in error is enough for me to assert that the death sentence is wrong.
2007-06-11 09:31:20
confused
Member
+10|6392|British Columbia

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Whether it deters crime or not it is still wrong purely on the basis that a miscarriage of justice can cost an innocent person their life.
Is the rare case of one innocent worth the risk of between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer?
If it was your brother or father wrongly convicted, how would you feel?
2007-06-11 09:31:29
EVieira
Member
+105|6476|Lutenblaag, Molvania

necroyeti1612 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Whether it deters crime or not it is still wrong purely on the basis that a miscarriage of justice can cost an innocent person their life.
VERY VERY TRUE!

And as we have seen. It has cost innocent lives...more than it would have been preventing. Chew on that!
Should life sentences be abolished too then? Chew on that...
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-06-11 09:35:45
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6580|SE London

EVieira wrote:

necroyeti1612 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Whether it deters crime or not it is still wrong purely on the basis that a miscarriage of justice can cost an innocent person their life.
VERY VERY TRUE!

And as we have seen. It has cost innocent lives...more than it would have been preventing. Chew on that!
Should life sentences be abolished too then? Chew on that...
No. Based on that viewpoint, the problem is the irreversible nature of the death penalty. If evidence surfaces later that exonerates a prisoner on a life sentence, they can be released and compensated.
2007-06-11 09:37:50
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6599|132 and Bush

topal63 wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

This story is as of yesterday. This would be where you would get the latest news on it. I'm going to sort threw the stories and see if I can't find more specifics.
(Death+Penalty+deterrence)
Here is a search on Google scholar: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en … mp;spell=1

I am more likely to accept the scholarly opinion (rather than a journalist's opinion) that these studies (new & old) do not establish any causal link (as a deterrence) and moreover are actually riddled with errors when examined critically.
The link I gave was to keep updated with this study in particular, Bert had asked (Sorted by most recent). The journalist are reporting on the study. You might find their opinions in some links, but my intent was not for anyone to mistake the journalist with the scholars.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-06-11 09:39:54
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6599|132 and Bush

confused wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Whether it deters crime or not it is still wrong purely on the basis that a miscarriage of justice can cost an innocent person their life.
Is the rare case of one innocent worth the risk of between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer?
If it was your brother or father wrongly convicted, how would you feel?
If it was your kid that was raped, murdered, and buried half naked in a black trash bag how would you feel. Let's not invoke emotions.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-06-11 09:41:06
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6553

Kmarion wrote:

confused wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Is the rare case of one innocent worth the risk of between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer?
If it was your brother or father wrongly convicted, how would you feel?
If it was your kid that was raped, murdered, and buried half naked in a black trash bag how would you feel. Let's not invoke emotions.
What? 'Just convict someone, anyone, I don't care!'????
2007-06-11 09:42:12
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6599|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

confused wrote:


If it was your brother or father wrongly convicted, how would you feel?
If it was your kid that was raped, murdered, and buried half naked in a black trash bag how would you feel. Let's not invoke emotions.
What? 'Just convict someone, anyone, I don't care!'????
Cam, there were two sentences in that quote.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-06-11 09:43:29
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6580|SE London

Kmarion wrote:

confused wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Is the rare case of one innocent worth the risk of between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer?
If it was your brother or father wrongly convicted, how would you feel?
If it was your kid that was raped, murdered, and buried half naked in a black trash bag how would you feel. Let's not invoke emotions.
I'd be pissed off.

I wouldn't want them to get the death penalty though, I'd want to see them locked up, indefinately. I might want to kill them, but that's very different.
2007-06-11 09:45:20
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6553

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


If it was your kid that was raped, murdered, and buried half naked in a black trash bag how would you feel. Let's not invoke emotions.
What? 'Just convict someone, anyone, I don't care!'????
Cam, there were two sentences in that quote.
OK. For a second there I thought that read like the strangest Kmarion quote in my long history of reading your posts. Personally if that happened I'd be more content for them to rot in a shitty cell for their entire life as long as they were never guaranteed to see the light of day again. The whole concept of the death penalty just doesn't wash with me.
2007-06-11 09:46:28
confused
Member
+10|6392|British Columbia

Kmarion wrote:

confused wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Is the rare case of one innocent worth the risk of between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer?
If it was your brother or father wrongly convicted, how would you feel?
If it was your kid that was raped, murdered, and buried half naked in a black trash bag how would you feel. Let's not invoke emotions.
Yor question was "Is the rare case of one innocent worth the risk".  So I asked if that one innocent was your family member does it change your opinion.
2007-06-11 09:46:42
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6599|132 and Bush

You guys have been waiting on edge for this debate to head down that road...lol. The "revenge" road.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-06-11 09:48:27
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6599|132 and Bush

Good debate fellas, I've got to actually do some work now.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-06-11 09:49:31
topal63
. . .
+533|6716

Kmarion wrote:

confused wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Is the rare case of one innocent worth the risk of between three and 18 lives that would be saved by the execution of each convicted killer?
If it was your brother or father wrongly convicted, how would you feel?
If it was your kid that was raped, murdered, and buried half naked in a black trash bag how would you feel. Let's not invoke emotions.
I would hope - there was not a "mandatory sentence" for the death penalty being placed upon the individual, that claimed the life of the loved-one I lost. And, I would earnestly speak and make an appeal to the judge to commute the sentence to life in prison. I cannot be more against it than that, irrespective of me knowing there has not been a single scientific study ever done (this includes the sort-of recent ones) actually being free of massive error, or establishing an actual correlative or causal link.
2007-06-11 10:15:50
derstralle
Iron Egg Skill, bitches!
+29|6213
You guys just talk about how the death penalty is wrong because it can affect innocent people.
But why do you think that knowing someone is 100% guilty justifies killing him or her?
In my book nobody has the right to kill anybody! With, of course, the important exception of self-defense (the military is a different chapter... although one could argue that an 'legitimate' war can be broken down to mass-organised self-defense).
I have very strong principles when it comes to killing other people.. I would even go so far to say that I would speak up against death sentence for someone who raped and killed my whole family and tried to torture me to death (although this is just theory).

But in the end I believe this is nothing you can even remotely discuss in an objective manner (I would like to be proven wrong though.. so don't hesitate to argue with me)... just wanted to provide you with a different angle on this topic.
2007-06-11 10:28:35
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6540|Texas - Bigger than France

CameronPoe wrote:

Stats are irrelevant to me on this issue. Until law is 100% infallible (never gonna happen) the chance that the life of a single innocent might be taken in error is enough for me to assert that the death sentence is wrong.
I understand that logic, but I would say that it could be expanded to all forms of punishment - fines, community service, imprisonment, or public service announcements by celebs.

The flaw is within the legal system, not within the punishment in my opinion. Focusing on the punishment is independent of these flaws.

But perfectly understandable - it's whether you believe the probability of this occuring overwhelms the evidence for justifying its existence.
2007-06-11 10:32:50
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6630|949

What I don't understand (and I haven''t had the time to read the original report or read through this thread for) is - How did they come to the conclusion that 5 homicides would be stopped?  Is it (the study) comparing the death penalty to life in prison?  How are they (the authors of the study) able to associate the death penalty to exact (or guesstimated) numbers?

Can anyone who read the report fill me in?
2007-06-11 11:33:13
LaidBackNinja
Pony Slaystation
+343|6707|Charlie One Alpha
Honestly, I do support the death penalty, but ONLY if it has been proven beyond a shadow of doubt that the person is indeed guilty. Some people are just so sick and twisted that they have no place in this world, and there is no point in keeping them alive.

Cam: In some cases it is 100% certain that the person is guilty, let's say for instance a guy goes insane, and rapes+kills all the women in his office, being recorded by security cameras and confessing to boot. I think in these cases the death penalty is fitting.

Last edited by LaidBackNinja (2007-06-11 11:35:46)

"If you want a vision of the future, imagine SecuROM slapping your face with its dick -- forever." -George Orwell
2007-06-11 11:55:54
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6630|949

From the article -

"Executions, commutations, and removals have no impact on robberies, burglaries, assaults, or motor-vehicle thefts."

Not crime, just homicides.

"Controlling for a variety of state characteristics, the paper investigates the impact of the execution rate, commutation and removal rates, homicide arrest rate, sentencing rate, imprisonment rate, and prison death rate on the rate of homicide."

It seems like the report compares the rates of deaths inside prisons/detention centers, not the outside society?  So basically the report concludes that by killing the person that would otherwise sit in jail, you are stopping him from killing another inmate (average of 5 times a year for all inmates).

I need to read the whole report.  What I found (the introduction) can be found here.

Last edited by KEN-JENNINGS (2007-06-11 11:56:34)

2007-06-11 11:59:59
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6221|Escea

CameronPoe wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

What? 'Just convict someone, anyone, I don't care!'????
Cam, there were two sentences in that quote.
OK. For a second there I thought that read like the strangest Kmarion quote in my long history of reading your posts. Personally if that happened I'd be more content for them to rot in a shitty cell for their entire life as long as they were never guaranteed to see the light of day again. The whole concept of the death penalty just doesn't wash with me.
But then you have to pay for them to be kept in a cell, fed, clothed and so forth, these are the major downsides to locking everyone up.

Last edited by M.O.A.B (2007-06-11 12:00:13)

 

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