Pages: 1 2 3 4

 

2007-05-27 06:39:04
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6759|Argentina
I noticed that ATG is very concerned about the number of Muslims that live in America and support the killing of civilians.  Let's see what this poll tells about Americans supporting Israel attacks.

ABC News/Washington Post Poll. Aug. 3-6, 2006. N=1,002 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults). Fieldwork by TNS.

"Israel says it has been bombing rocket launchers and other Hezbollah targets located in civilian areas, saying this is necessary for its self-defense even if civilian casualties occur. Do you think Israel is or is not justified in bombing Hezbollah targets located in areas where civilians may be killed or wounded?"

JUSTIFIED 47%
Unjustified 48%

I need someone to explain to me the difference between this poll and the other one.
We need to understand that Muslims and people from other religions are not that different.  The problem is the generalization and demonisation we make of them.
2007-05-27 06:42:56
KylieTastic
Games, Girls, Guinness
+85|6453|Cambridge, UK

Agreed.

For most of the "Look what the xxxx group have said/done" posts you can find an example to counterpoint that its not because they are "xxxx" but because they are people and people are flawed.
2007-05-27 06:46:17
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6557
/win.
2007-05-27 06:47:25
Cerpin_Taxt
Member
+155|6204

sergeriver wrote:

We need to understand that Muslims and people from other religions are not that different.  The problem is the generalization and demonisation we make of them.
You are generalizing these actions that result in civilian death as being the same.

In ATG's poll, Muslims said they supported suicide bombings that target civilians to defend Islam.

In your poll, Americans said they think the collateral damage of Israel's military action is justified.

There is a distinct difference here. You are drawing a connection between these two scenarios that does not exist to continue some petty argument with ATG.

Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-05-27 06:47:53)

2007-05-27 06:51:06
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6759|Argentina

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

We need to understand that Muslims and people from other religions are not that different.  The problem is the generalization and demonisation we make of them.
You are generalizing these actions that result in civilian death as being the same.

In ATG's poll, Muslims said they supported suicide bombings that target civilians to defend Islam.

In your poll, Americans said they think the collateral damage of Israel's military action is justified.

There is a distinct difference here. You are drawing a connection between these two scenarios that does not exist to continue some petty argument with ATG.
Are you aware that Israel doesn't give a shit for the civilians it may kill while bombing Palestine or Lebanon?

Last edited by sergeriver (2007-05-27 06:59:21)

2007-05-27 07:55:34
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+794|6686|United States of America
It's kinda hard for me not to when you have people thinking that they can make a difference by pelting a rock at a man with a rifle. Bullet > rock. I am, by no means, suggesting that Israel is faultless but if I added up all the articles in the paper about people being killed after rock throwing, I don't even believe that should be added. Also, if these places don't want their civvies killed by 1,000 lb bombs in residential or commercialareas, maybe they should put their launchers so close. It's almost like Somalia (yet another reference I make) where the crowds of unarmed people intermingled with the gunmen, taking full advantage of the rules of engagement and the human shield effect. The book Black Hawk Down even tells of some soldiers who were so angered by the use of human shields that they would fire towards the gunmen regardless of the number of noncombatants in the way.
I don't know much exactly Israel has encountered of that type of phenomenon but there is always a point where you realize how ridiculous it is.
2007-05-27 07:59:10
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6767|UK
lol i love these arguments now. It continues to confirm my belief that you guys are pretty naive if you think either side is in the right.
2007-05-27 08:41:55
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6759|Argentina

Vilham wrote:

lol i love these arguments now. It continues to confirm my belief that you guys are pretty naive if you think either side is in the right.
Who are you addressing?
2007-05-27 08:42:52
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6767|UK
All of you guys who think one side is in the right.
2007-05-27 08:46:27
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6759|Argentina

Vilham wrote:

All of you guys who think one side is in the right.
I don't think one side is right.  Both sides are wrong.  The point is one side has been retaliating and killing civilians in a very brutal and savage way.  I condemn the Palestinian extremists, but Israel heavy handedness is preposterous.
2007-05-27 08:49:16
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6767|UK
Serg dont deceive yourself, ever comment of yours supports the Palestinians.
2007-05-27 08:52:27
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6759|Argentina

Vilham wrote:

Serg dont deceive yourself, ever comment of yours supports the Palestinians.
Of course, I support Palestine, not the extremists.  They have the right to own the land (the OT).  Israel should be more moderate.
2007-05-27 08:54:30
Vilham
Say wat!?
+580|6767|UK

sergeriver wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Serg dont deceive yourself, ever comment of yours supports the Palestinians.
Of course, I support Palestine, not the extremists.  They have the right to own the land (the OT).  Israel should be more moderate.
Yes but then at the same time you ignore the fact that the measures that Israel has taken has been to protect itself.

Also the only people that can do anything about extremist palestinians are palestinians, yet they dont want to.

Last edited by Vilham (2007-05-27 08:55:31)

2007-05-27 10:37:41
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6759|Argentina

Vilham wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Vilham wrote:

Serg dont deceive yourself, ever comment of yours supports the Palestinians.
Of course, I support Palestine, not the extremists.  They have the right to own the land (the OT).  Israel should be more moderate.
Yes but then at the same time you ignore the fact that the measures that Israel has taken has been to protect itself.

Also the only people that can do anything about extremist palestinians are palestinians, yet they dont want to.
Israel can take measures to protect itself, what Israel can't do is to continue the eye for an eye policy, where they receive a rocket which doesn't kill anyone and they go and bomb a Palestinian residential neighborhood and kill 10 people.  By this I'm not justifying the rocket launcher, but condemning the hard response given by Israel.
2007-05-27 10:52:23
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6530|Global Command

sergeriver wrote:

Vilham wrote:

sergeriver wrote:


Of course, I support Palestine, not the extremists.  They have the right to own the land (the OT).  Israel should be more moderate.
Yes but then at the same time you ignore the fact that the measures that Israel has taken has been to protect itself.

Also the only people that can do anything about extremist palestinians are palestinians, yet they dont want to.
Israel can take measures to protect itself, what Israel can't do is to continue the eye for an eye policy, where they receive a rocket which doesn't kill anyone and they go and bomb a Palestinian residential neighborhood and kill 10 people.  By this I'm not justifying the rocket launcher, but condemning the hard response given by Israel.
Where is the rule of porportionality? ( sp )

If you think that Israel can only kill one Hamas rocketer because the rocket only killed one lady in a car your logic is flawed.

It's basically a civil war over there. They are such tiny little countries.

Eventually civil wars are decided by one side having a military victory.
2007-05-27 14:17:51
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6759|Argentina

ATG wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Vilham wrote:


Yes but then at the same time you ignore the fact that the measures that Israel has taken has been to protect itself.

Also the only people that can do anything about extremist palestinians are palestinians, yet they dont want to.
Israel can take measures to protect itself, what Israel can't do is to continue the eye for an eye policy, where they receive a rocket which doesn't kill anyone and they go and bomb a Palestinian residential neighborhood and kill 10 people.  By this I'm not justifying the rocket launcher, but condemning the hard response given by Israel.
Where is the rule of porportionality? ( sp )

If you think that Israel can only kill one Hamas rocketer because the rocket only killed one lady in a car your logic is flawed.

It's basically a civil war over there. They are such tiny little countries.

Eventually civil wars are decided by one side having a military victory.
If one extremist kills a lady, then Israel shouldn't attack the OT.  They should get the asshole who did this, because the IDF are the police within the OT.  If someone from your neighborhood kills a guy from other county, would you agree with the police of that county killing several persons from your neighborhood?
2007-05-28 18:50:37
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6543|Texas - Bigger than France

sergeriver wrote:

Vilham wrote:

sergeriver wrote:


Of course, I support Palestine, not the extremists.  They have the right to own the land (the OT).  Israel should be more moderate.
Yes but then at the same time you ignore the fact that the measures that Israel has taken has been to protect itself.

Also the only people that can do anything about extremist palestinians are palestinians, yet they dont want to.
Israel can take measures to protect itself, what Israel can't do is to continue the eye for an eye policy, where they receive a rocket which doesn't kill anyone and they go and bomb a Palestinian residential neighborhood and kill 10 people.  By this I'm not justifying the rocket launcher, but condemning the hard response given by Israel.
So are you saying that Israel has the right to fight back?

And what about addressing Vil's statement?  That part of the reason the Palestinians are receiving the treatment they are getting is because they are allowing the extremists to exist within their own country?
2007-05-28 20:32:14
iamangry
Member
+59|6647|The United States of America
There's a big difference between trying to hit an enemy position when he's surrounded himself by civilian soft targets and strapping an artillery shell to your back and taking out the bakery down the street.  There's a big difference between having a missile be off by 0.2 arc seconds and accidentally killing a car with a family of four and tossing a grenade at a marine giving your neighbor's kids candy.  One is an accident, the other is intentional.    Granted, something is a little fishy about Israel's American made arsenal of destruction... in that it misses a hell of a lot more than it should.  But if a bunch of school kids are cool with playing on the terrorist's big missile launcher between launches, that's just too bad.  Besides, the prospect of killing civilians has never deterred the Muslims in their attacks on the Jews, so why the hell should we outsiders to the conflict  have the right to demand that the Jews act any better?
2007-05-28 22:24:53
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6406|North Carolina

sergeriver wrote:

I noticed that ATG is very concerned about the number of Muslims that live in America and support the killing of civilians.  Let's see what this poll tells about Americans supporting Israel attacks.

ABC News/Washington Post Poll. Aug. 3-6, 2006. N=1,002 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults). Fieldwork by TNS.

"Israel says it has been bombing rocket launchers and other Hezbollah targets located in civilian areas, saying this is necessary for its self-defense even if civilian casualties occur. Do you think Israel is or is not justified in bombing Hezbollah targets located in areas where civilians may be killed or wounded?"

JUSTIFIED 47%
Unjustified 48%

I need someone to explain to me the difference between this poll and the other one.
We need to understand that Muslims and people from other religions are not that different.  The problem is the generalization and demonisation we make of them.
Good points...  +1
2007-05-29 05:55:26
Skorpy-chan
Member
+127|6346|Twyford, UK
Well, the west really can't critisize, seeing as we levelled whole cities to stop the Nazis.
2007-05-29 06:11:39
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6551|CH/BR - in UK

Pug wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Vilham wrote:


Yes but then at the same time you ignore the fact that the measures that Israel has taken has been to protect itself.

Also the only people that can do anything about extremist palestinians are palestinians, yet they dont want to.
Israel can take measures to protect itself, what Israel can't do is to continue the eye for an eye policy, where they receive a rocket which doesn't kill anyone and they go and bomb a Palestinian residential neighborhood and kill 10 people.  By this I'm not justifying the rocket launcher, but condemning the hard response given by Israel.
So are you saying that Israel has the right to fight back?

And what about addressing Vil's statement?  That part of the reason the Palestinians are receiving the treatment they are getting is because they are allowing the extremists to exist within their own country?
I'll say it again. And again, and again, and again if I have to.
If you have nothing to lose, you will do whatever it takes
The world needs to acknowledge Palestine as a country, and acknowledge it's people as what they are - people. They are not terrorists, they are not extremists.
It seems to me that the policy that Israel is following isn't an eye for an eye. It's a leg, or a life, for an eye. As serge mentioned above, you wouldn't do it in the US justice system, so why should Israel be allowed to? This is not justice. It's revenge. The sooner both countries accept this, the sooner we will see peace.
The obvious bias on the US media is made more clear with each response in this forum.

Israel has a right to carry out justice. No more than that.

-konfusion
2007-05-29 07:15:12
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6759|Argentina

Pug wrote:

sergeriver wrote:

Vilham wrote:


Yes but then at the same time you ignore the fact that the measures that Israel has taken has been to protect itself.

Also the only people that can do anything about extremist palestinians are palestinians, yet they dont want to.
Israel can take measures to protect itself, what Israel can't do is to continue the eye for an eye policy, where they receive a rocket which doesn't kill anyone and they go and bomb a Palestinian residential neighborhood and kill 10 people.  By this I'm not justifying the rocket launcher, but condemning the hard response given by Israel.
So are you saying that Israel has the right to fight back?

And what about addressing Vil's statement?  That part of the reason the Palestinians are receiving the treatment they are getting is because they are allowing the extremists to exist within their own country?
Wrong.  The IDF's are the police of Palestine, so they should get those extremists.  If they can't deal with them, then they should leave the OT.
2007-05-29 07:49:08
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6181
WOW....people really don't get it. Israel is in a tough situation as are the Palestinians....BOTH!! Let's not forget that even if Israel relented and finally gave the Palestinians what they want, do you really think the rockets from Hamas would stop?????? HELL NO, Hamas and its terrorists helpers have stated over and over and its actually written down in their charter to destroy and wipe Israel off the map!!! So what would you want Israel to do? How many rockets will you let Hamas/ terrorists shoot at you before you try to stop them? Over time these rockets will get more and more lethal and what happens when Hamas/ terrorists get there hands on even deadlier types of ammunition. Hamas will never stop, they use the Palestinian cause to keep striving for their ultimate goal...to wipe out Israel. I find it funny that even the neighbors, Lebanon for example, all the sudden have the same problem within their country involving who? You guessed it....terrorists living among and using the Palestinian cause to build up and mess with that country.. Hmmm....I don't see anyone attacking Lebanon for its efforts to go after these terrorists. Yes civilians have died there too because???......anyone, anyone......these groups use the population to hide among. They do it among the Palestinian civilians against Israel and are doing the same thing among the Palestinian civilians in Lebanon. The Palestinian people in both places are being used so these groups can go about their ultimate agendas. These terrorists groups could care less about the Palestinian cause and could care less about the deaths of civilians that ultimately should be blamed on those that falsely use the Palestinian people for their own gains. Israel does the best it can but honestly...we all KNOW that there are groups who will always be after them no matter what they give up for peace. This will never end, its been going on for thousands of years and will probably go on for thousands more. Kingdom of Heaven!!!
2007-05-29 07:54:57
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6557

DeathBecomesYu wrote:

WOW....people really don't get it. Israel is in a tough situation as are the Palestinians....BOTH!! Let's not forget that even if Israel relented and finally gave the Palestinians what they want, do you really think the rockets from Hamas would stop?????? HELL NO, Hamas and its terrorists helpers have stated over and over and its actually written down in their charter to destroy and wipe Israel off the map!!! So what would you want Israel to do? How many rockets will you let Hamas/ terrorists shoot at you before you try to stop them? Over time these rockets will get more and more lethal and what happens when Hamas/ terrorists get there hands on even deadlier types of ammunition. Hamas will never stop, they use the Palestinian cause to keep striving for their ultimate goal...to wipe out Israel. I find it funny that even the neighbors, Lebanon for example, all the sudden have the same problem within their country involving who? You guessed it....terrorists living among and using the Palestinian cause to build up and mess with that country.. Hmmm....I don't see anyone attacking Lebanon for its efforts to go after these terrorists. Yes civilians have died there too because???......anyone, anyone......these groups use the population to hide among. They do it among the Palestinian civilians against Israel and are doing the same thing among the Palestinian civilians in Lebanon. The Palestinian people in both places are being used so these groups can go about their ultimate agendas. These terrorists groups could care less about the Palestinian cause and could care less about the deaths of civilians that ultimately should be blamed on those that falsely use the Palestinian people for their own gains. Israel does the best it can but honestly...we all KNOW that there are groups who will always be after them no matter what they give up for peace. This will never end, its been going on for thousands of years and will probably go on for thousands more. Kingdom of Heaven!!!
Yadda yadda yadda. Started well by saying that both shared blame but then you said this:

"if Israel relented and finally gave the Palestinians what they want, do you really think the rockets from Hamas would stop?????? HELL NO"

... without following it up with this:

"if Hamas relented and declared a ceasefire that actually held, do you really think the Israelis would stop shelling Palestine, bulldozing Palestinian homes, building the West Bank apartheid wall and building settlements in the West Bank???? HELL NO"

And then after that you said this:

"Israel does the best it can but honestly..."

100% pure unadulterated bullshit.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-05-29 07:56:09)

2007-05-29 08:26:32
DeathBecomesYu
Member
+171|6181
There will never be a ceasefire with Hamas....its a joke if you think Hamas would ever HOLD a ceasefire. Yes, i do believe that Israel would stop firing on the West Bank IF they were not attacked any more. Settlements are another issue. I am not defending Israel or the Palestinians. I support both in what they believe is the right thing to do. Peace in our lifetime? That will never happen because like I said...eye for an eye has been going on for thousands of years and will go on long after we are all gone. Cameron you can call what I say bullshit all you want. I have read your posts all over these forums. You really seem to have the answers to ALL of life's questions and problems and a lot of time to write about it. It is very easy to be a Monday morning quarterback!!!!!! No one here has the answers to solve this...and when you speak of bullshit, a lot of people have stepped deep in yours. I am posting because I see the same things posted here over and over and over (long before I actually signed up) and the reality is this. You nor I, nor any of us here is going to solve this in our lifetime, especially posting forums based in gaming with a few hundred people possibly seeing this post. You can spew all the intelligent sounding words, phrases and rhetoric to your hearts content because it wont change a thing. When you and I are long gone....people will be posting on forums (or whatever form forums will take in the future) over the same BS over the same problems like people have been doing long before we were born. This is what I believe...Israel and the Palestinian people have done good and bad on both ends and do have good intentions if ever allowed to do so. But as always, there will be a "monkeys with the wrench"(Hamas, religion, fanatics, terrorist groups and egos) to keep it all messed up and going for another thousand years.

 

Pages: 1 2 3 4

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2024 Jeff Minard