sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6764|Argentina
In general we can say that the Democrats support civil-rights (and therefore social liberalism), the Republicans support free-market (and therefore economic liberalism), while the Libertarians support both, making them the only purely liberal party in the United States.

Do you agree with this statement?  Why do you think the meaning of the word liberal has changed so much in the last years in America?  Why is liberal a very bad word for a lot of people using it as an insult, when the founders of the country were true liberals?  This can be seen in the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights.

In the United States, the primary use of the term liberal is at some variance with European and British usage. In the 19th century it was not a common term in American philosophy or politics, partially because the two main parties were a mixture of populist and nationalist elements. The Democratic Party was the party of free trade, low tariffs and laissez-faire entrepreneurialism, while the Republican Party advocated national citizenship, transparency and government efforts to stabilize the currency. Liberalism in the United States was primarily defined by the self-proclaimed liberal presidents Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt. While the emphasis on mutual collaboration through liberal institutions as an alternative to the threat and use of force remained consistent with international liberalism, United States liberals also claimed that individuals have a right to expect the government to guarantee social justice. This was in part a consequence of the influence of the ideas of British economist John Maynard Keynes on Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal. The New Deal had the effect of stealing the thunder of social democratic forces and the necessity to prevent social unrest strengthened this development. As McCarthyism gave the terms socialism and even social democracy a meaning synonymous with treason in the U.S., many to the left of center moderated their views, aligning with the New Deal liberals. Since approximately the Reagan era, the word liberal has been so much used as a derogatory term by U.S. conservatives that it led to an ever increasing number of critics of conservatism to identify with progressivism, rather than turning to liberalism. The Democratic Party is identified as the liberal party within the broader definition of liberalism thus putting it in contrast with most other parties listed here. The Libertarian Party, the third largest political party in the United States, particularly centers itself on free markets and individual liberty. The Republican Party generally supports strong free-market and libertarian views on the economy. In general we can say that the Democrats support civil-rights (and therefore social liberalism), the Republicans support free-market (and therefore economic liberalism), while the Libertarians support both, making them the only purely liberal party in the United States.
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6633|Sea to globally-cooled sea
I dunno.  THe problem with social liberals is that they are not true liberals.  They feel that true liberalism is not the ability to choose, but that someone choose for everyone--as long as that person chooses a rogue belief. 

If they truly wanted people to choose, they would celebrate the choice to be conservative or traditional.

Last edited by G3|Genius (2007-05-23 07:33:34)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6764|Argentina

G3|Genius wrote:

I dunno.  THe problem with social liberals is that they are not true liberals.  They feel that true liberalism is not the ability to choose, but that someone choose for everyone--as long as that person chooses a rogue belief. 

If they truly wanted people to choose, they would celebrate the choice to be conservative or traditional.
That's communism.  Have you ever heard of Europe?
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6650
isnt conservative just a fancy word for traditional?  arent conservatives people who want to maintain the tradition? the status quo?  everything is either fine the way it is or it was better yesterday mentality?
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6557|CH/BR - in UK

I like the system we have in Switzerland. It's a great government for peace times. However, if we ever get into a war, we're screwed, because we'll take forever to react. I have to say that in the USA it's incredibly difficult to decide who to vote for because essentially their beliefs seem to be almost all the same.

-konfusion
Cerpin_Taxt
Member
+155|6209
Liberalism is getting really pissed off at Bush, moving to San Fransisco, and starting a blog.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6764|Argentina

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

Liberalism is getting really pissed off at Bush, moving to San Fransisco, and starting a blog.
Did you become liberal?
Cerpin_Taxt
Member
+155|6209

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

isnt conservative just a fancy word for traditional?  arent conservatives people who want to maintain the tradition? the status quo?  everything is either fine the way it is or it was better yesterday mentality?
Conservatives want to conserve what they have and keep to themselves. Liberals want to go out and liberate other countries.

Last edited by Cerpin_Taxt (2007-05-23 10:36:52)

sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6764|Argentina

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

isnt conservative just a fancy word for traditional?  arent conservatives people who want to maintain the tradition? the status quo?  everything is either fine the way it is or it was better yesterday mentality?
Conservatives want to conserve what they have and keep to themselves. Liberals want to go out and liberate other countries.
Like Bush?
agent146
Member
+127|6393|Jesus Land aka Canada

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

isnt conservative just a fancy word for traditional?  arent conservatives people who want to maintain the tradition? the status quo?  everything is either fine the way it is or it was better yesterday mentality?
Conservatives want to conserve what they have and keep to themselves. Liberals want to go out and liberate other countries.
WITH GUNS LET THE DEMoncracy spread.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6768

US Liberals = Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6502

konfusion wrote:

I like the system we have in Switzerland. It's a great government for peace times. However, if we ever get into a war, we're screwed, because we'll take forever to react. I have to say that in the USA it's incredibly difficult to decide who to vote for because essentially their beliefs seem to be almost all the same.

-konfusion
Switzerland would win any war in 2 days. Considering switzerland will never invade another nation (purposefully), they will win any war any day. A conscript army, extensive defensive network, and mountains? Hands down victory in any war short of nuclear annihilation.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6502

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

isnt conservative just a fancy word for traditional?  arent conservatives people who want to maintain the tradition? the status quo?  everything is either fine the way it is or it was better yesterday mentality?
Conservatives want to conserve what they have and keep to themselves. Liberals want to go out and liberate other countries.
That's the least accurate description I've ever heard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism


"Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights. It seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power (especially of government and religion), the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of all citizens are protected.[2]"

"Conservatism is a relativistic term used to describe political philosophies that favor traditional values, where "tradition" refers to religious, cultural, or nationally defined beliefs and customs. The term is derived from the Latin, conservāre, to conserve; "to keep, guard, observe". Since different cultures have different established values, conservatives in different cultures have different goals. Some conservatives seek to preserve the status quo, while others seek to return to the values of an earlier time, the status quo ante."
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6768

jonsimon wrote:

konfusion wrote:

I like the system we have in Switzerland. It's a great government for peace times. However, if we ever get into a war, we're screwed, because we'll take forever to react. I have to say that in the USA it's incredibly difficult to decide who to vote for because essentially their beliefs seem to be almost all the same.

-konfusion
Switzerland would win any war in 2 days. Considering switzerland will never invade another nation (purposefully), they will win any war any day. A conscript army, extensive defensive network, and mountains? Hands down victory in any war short of nuclear annihilation.
While your concept makes sense, not sure how accurate that is.

For example...

Think of a soccer team.

If you only play against each other all the time, how can you tell how good you are, or if your "play calling" and tactics are effective?
jonsimon
Member
+224|6502

usmarine2005 wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

konfusion wrote:

I like the system we have in Switzerland. It's a great government for peace times. However, if we ever get into a war, we're screwed, because we'll take forever to react. I have to say that in the USA it's incredibly difficult to decide who to vote for because essentially their beliefs seem to be almost all the same.

-konfusion
Switzerland would win any war in 2 days. Considering switzerland will never invade another nation (purposefully), they will win any war any day. A conscript army, extensive defensive network, and mountains? Hands down victory in any war short of nuclear annihilation.
While your concept makes sense, not sure how accurate that is.

For example...

Think of a soccer team.

If you only play against each other all the time, how can you tell how good you are, or if your "play calling" and tactics are effective?
I don't think tactics factors in when your nation is so small. With the defensive works (tunnelling, terrain, etc) and their highly organized civil service, both military and otherwise, Switzerland could hold down the fort regardless of their vast international leverage and allies.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6768

jonsimon wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

jonsimon wrote:


Switzerland would win any war in 2 days. Considering switzerland will never invade another nation (purposefully), they will win any war any day. A conscript army, extensive defensive network, and mountains? Hands down victory in any war short of nuclear annihilation.
While your concept makes sense, not sure how accurate that is.

For example...

Think of a soccer team.

If you only play against each other all the time, how can you tell how good you are, or if your "play calling" and tactics are effective?
I don't think tactics factors in when your nation is so small. With the defensive works (tunnelling, terrain, etc) and their highly organized civil service, both military and otherwise, Switzerland could hold down the fort regardless of their vast international leverage and allies.
US and UK would own the Swiss my friend IMO.
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6475

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

isnt conservative just a fancy word for traditional?  arent conservatives people who want to maintain the tradition? the status quo?  everything is either fine the way it is or it was better yesterday mentality?
Originally. At the Congress of Vienna, were the term was coined that was who were called conservatives and that was exactly what their mentality was.
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6721|US

jonsimon wrote:

"Broadly speaking, liberalism emphasizes individual rights. It seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on power (especially of government and religion), the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports free private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of all citizens are protected.[2]"

"Conservatism is a relativistic term used to describe political philosophies that favor traditional values, where "tradition" refers to religious, cultural, or nationally defined beliefs and customs. The term is derived from the Latin, conservāre, to conserve; "to keep, guard, observe". Since different cultures have different established values, conservatives in different cultures have different goals. Some conservatives seek to preserve the status quo, while others seek to return to the values of an earlier time, the status quo ante."
That is a good general definition, however the US parties do not follow those exactly.

Democrats support individual rights (usually), but often resort to big-government programs and restrictions on the free-market to achieve this.

Republicans are socially conservative, but take a much more liberal (in the classical sense) view of economics.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6452|The Land of Scott Walker

usmarine2005 wrote:

US Liberals = Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.
QFT
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6669|USA

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

isnt conservative just a fancy word for traditional?  arent conservatives people who want to maintain the tradition? the status quo?  everything is either fine the way it is or it was better yesterday mentality?
Conservatives want to conserve what they have and keep to themselves. Liberals want to go out and liberate other countries.
LOmotherfockingL


kids
jonsimon
Member
+224|6502

usmarine2005 wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

While your concept makes sense, not sure how accurate that is.

For example...

Think of a soccer team.

If you only play against each other all the time, how can you tell how good you are, or if your "play calling" and tactics are effective?
I don't think tactics factors in when your nation is so small. With the defensive works (tunnelling, terrain, etc) and their highly organized civil service, both military and otherwise, Switzerland could hold down the fort regardless of their vast international leverage and allies.
US and UK would own the Swiss my friend IMO.
Only because we could just drop a nuke and be done with it. If we really wanted to occupy the swiss, we'd have one hell of a time trying. There's a good reason the swiss have always been neutral, even hitler wasn't stupid enough to touch the swiss.

Last edited by jonsimon (2007-05-23 15:17:51)

An Enlarged Liver
Member
+35|6750|Backward Ass Kansas

Cerpin_Taxt wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

isnt conservative just a fancy word for traditional?  arent conservatives people who want to maintain the tradition? the status quo?  everything is either fine the way it is or it was better yesterday mentality?
Conservatives want to conserve what they have and keep to themselves. Liberals want to go out and liberate other countries.
By this definition that would make GW the biggest liberal of all.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6768

jonsimon wrote:

Only because we could just drop a nuke and be done with it. If we really wanted to occupy the swiss, we'd have one hell of a time trying. There's a good reason the swiss have always been neutral, even hitler wasn't stupid enough to touch the swiss.
I am not talking nukes.
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|6764|Argentina
Nobody answered the OP questions.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6768

sergeriver wrote:

Nobody answered the OP questions.
"Why is liberal a very bad word for a lot of people using it as an insult..."

I answered that, and was quoted for that answer also.

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