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Poll

Is there such thing as justifiable homicide?

Yes87%87% - 94
No12%12% - 13
Total: 107
2007-05-16 23:08:10
blisteringsilence
I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Kennedy
+83|6707|Little Rock, Arkansas
There has been a lot of debate on the boards lately about various gun laws around the world, and I thought I'd toss in my 2 cents for a topic.

In the US, it is legal to shoot someone to defend yourself or others. Gun rights advocates (of which I am one) maintain that this, among many others, is one of the reasons we need to retain the right to arm ourselves. I was crusing the UCR this evening, and came across this table:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/ … le_14.html

https://mattkennett.com/bbna/images/lol/defensive-statistics.jpg

Mind you, these data are for shootings that resulted in the criminal dying. This does not account for the number of shootings in which the criminal was merely wounded, not to mention the number of times the simple threat of being shot was enough to break off the encounter.

So, let us discuss, and please keep on topic. We're talking about defensive uses of firearms. Please, let us avoid being bogged down in ramblings that are OT.
2007-05-16 23:17:33
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6535|Global Command
I'd sleep easier tonight if I could shoot a rapist.
2007-05-16 23:18:33
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6680|Canberra, AUS

ATG wrote:

I'd sleep easier tonight if I could shoot a rapist.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2007-05-16 23:20:27
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6586|the dank(super) side of Oregon
not one of my guns has a single kill notch on it.   shame.
2007-05-16 23:31:45
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|6785|Great Brown North
k so lets say you have a concealed weapon on you and you're walking down the street at night, someone comes at you with a knife, you:
a) try to run away with a high likelyhood of them catching up and wounding/killing you
b) try to fight them off with the same outcome as above
c) tell them they're a naughty criminal and to wait right there while you call the police
d) pull your gun on them and give them the opportunity to either leave or die, they lunge you then yes, you're allowed to shoot them

granted the criminal may just go and get a gun (illegaly, duh) and just shoot the next person first with no risk.
or he might say fuck this, im too likely to get shot, how many people around them have guns too


i guess my point is, if either yours or someone elses life is in danger, the criminals life takes a lower priority.

that being said, i support the law that requires you to at least give them the option of fleeing. i.e. not shooting them in the back, or shooting someone at distance when they have no way to actualy harm you yet
2007-05-16 23:32:42
JackerP
aka S.J.N.P.0717
+21|6283|Mo Val, Cali
Is there such thing as a public citizen?
2007-05-16 23:36:49
blisteringsilence
I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Kennedy
+83|6707|Little Rock, Arkansas

S.J.N.P.0717 wrote:

Is there such thing as a public citizen?
No, but there is a public servant, i.e. law enforcement. There is a seperate table of data that refers to law enforcement using lethal force.
2007-05-16 23:43:53
JayDee
Member
+4|6387|A large sand dune
Has everybody here gone to law school so that you know who is a criminal or not? I think you´ve seen to many western movies. The problem in USA is that since everybody has a gun available, self defense means having a gun for protection. In Sweden, it is a lot more difficult getting your hands on a gun. So you don´t need weapons for self protection.
2007-05-16 23:47:25
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|6785|Great Brown North

JayDee wrote:

Has everybody here gone to law school so that you know who is a criminal or not?
the guy who mugs you on the street isnt selling cookies by day

JayDee wrote:

I think you´ve seen to many western movies. The problem in USA is that since everybody has a gun available, self defense means having a gun for protection.
mm no, not everyone has a gun available, firearms are the great equalizer, it doesnt matter how big you are. i can still win.

JayDee wrote:

In Sweden, it is a lot more difficult getting your hands on a gun. So you don´t need weapons for self protection.
well im pretty sure in sweden a big guy with a bat still kills you just as easy.



edit: oh and im Canadian, so you cant really use the whole gun toting crazy american thing on me

Last edited by krazed (2007-05-16 23:48:03)

2007-05-16 23:48:59
hate&discontent
USMC 0311 SEMPER FI
+69|6394|USA, MICHIGAN
im just waiting to see what my .45 acp with 230 grain hollow pts can actually do
2007-05-16 23:50:37
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|6785|Great Brown North

hate&discontent wrote:

im just waiting to see what my .45 acp with 230 grain hollow pts can actually do
throw a pack of juicy hamburger at the wall a few times? im not really used to handguns much so i have no experience with that :\ im betting it would make a nice mess though

Last edited by krazed (2007-05-16 23:54:45)

2007-05-17 00:04:42
Y0URDAD
I'ma Eat Yo Children!
+17|6651|Annapolis, MD
I think lethal force is justifiable any time someone comes between me (or my neighbor) and my well being or way of life.
2007-05-17 00:11:13
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|6785|Great Brown North

Y0URDAD wrote:

I think lethal force is justifiable any time someone comes between me (or my neighbor) and my well being or way of life.
what do you mean by way of life?
2007-05-17 00:21:44
Y0URDAD
I'ma Eat Yo Children!
+17|6651|Annapolis, MD

krazed wrote:

what do you mean by way of life?
Sorry for not elucidating...

By "way of life" I mean the freedoms I am afforded; over my dead body will someone keep me from what I am entitled. Basically, besides my right to life, I would kill to protect something that is rightfully mine, be it something tangible or an idea.
2007-05-17 01:13:18
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6777|PNW

krazed wrote:

hate&discontent wrote:

im just waiting to see what my .45 acp with 230 grain hollow pts can actually do
throw a pack of juicy hamburger at the wall a few times? im not really used to handguns much so i have no experience with that :\ im betting it would make a nice mess though
The .45 is a funny round. Think liquification.
2007-05-17 01:25:12
BeerzGod
Hooray Beer!
+94|6575|United States
I absolutely believe in defending your own life or the lives of the people around you with deadly force if necessary. I'll be damned if I'm going to debate pulling out my concealed gun and shooting someone lunging at me with a knife and/or other pointy object with the sole intent of hurting me. It doesn't matter if they're a criminal or not. If you feel that your life is truly in danger then you shouldn't hesitate... but if you're a good enough distance away and recognize the threat, then obviously give them a choice after pulling out your gun. A body count, whether necessary or not, is something I'd rather not have tallied up in my lifetime.
2007-05-17 01:28:39
markkos
Kokko, kokoo koko kokko kokoon!
+9|6681|Zurich, Switzerland
I like the finnish opinion: You may only shoot at a person to prevent a directly imminent crime that would kill you or another person. So if he'd like to kill you in a month you can kill him now, nor kill a known rapist unless he is killing someone, nor intruders in your house. They easily charge you of manslaughter or even murder if there wasn't someone holding someone else at gunpoint. I don't know if you may shoot anyone who tries to kill someone with a knife. In Finland we have a lot of firearms but you can't get one for self-defense. If you have an unloaded gun in your hand not even pointing it at an unarmed thug who is in your house you can get charged. That happened a few years ago to a family father...

Last edited by markkos (2007-05-17 01:31:29)

2007-05-17 01:31:48
Roger Lesboules
Ah ben tabarnak!
+316|6583|Abitibi-Temiscamingue. Québec!
As ATG said, I would sleep better if i had right to shoot rapist or whoever is considerer a treat to anyone
security.

And believe me..even tho here in Canada i dont think we are allowed...if a robber break into my house...he is better run for his life because im going to put a bunch of pellets up is ass.

Last edited by Roger Lesboules (2007-05-17 01:32:56)

2007-05-17 01:37:59
Mushroomcar
I L0v3 C4k3
+18|6725|Sweden
What, someone steals your tv..
Does he deserve to die for that?
Isn't this going to far?..
2007-05-17 01:40:21
gene_pool
Banned
+519|6627|Gold coast, Aus.
Self defence.
2007-05-17 01:52:47
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6777|PNW

Mushroomcar wrote:

What, someone steals your tv..
Does he deserve to die for that?
Isn't this going to far?..
Steal my TV? Fine. I'd just submit cams evidence to the police. Wanting to cut my throat? Different matter altogether, Scooter. Why did you pick such a mild crime as an example, when there are so many colorful extremes to choose from?
2007-05-17 01:59:11
|BFC|Icenflame
Member
+11|6482|Cape Town - South Africa
I still can't get over the fact at how lax American Firearms laws are? I know its your 2nd amendment "right" to be able to arm yourself but come on think about how paranoid does a nation have to be to have an LAW stating that citizens have the RIGHT to bear arms?

Thats just my opinion. Here in South Africa we have extremely stringent firearm laws in fact if you shoot a robber in your house that is not armed with a firearm you are most likely going to be charged with Manslaughter it happens here all the time! The robber gets killed and the shooter get hauled off to jail.

I know many would disagree with this sentiment but it places more responsibility in the hands of firearm holders prevents trigger happy people! And I would say that 7/10 times there is an armed robbery the person with the firearm who thought he was GI Joe gets p00ned ! And then there is another Firearm on the streets ! woopeeee!

Ok taken in context we have a lot of illegal firearms in South Africa and most of them are your Automatic AK-47 they came across the boarder from all the civil wars in Africa now that there is peace the weapons are being sold to criminals hell you can pick up a AK-47 on the black market for R500.00 thats just under $67.00

And a 9mm Semi-Auto Berta (Police issue) costs about R150.00 thats about $20.00 some of the gun runners even rent out their 9mm for the day!

I'd hate to think of the madness in this country if every citizen had the right to bear arms?

I have a question to post to everyone thats is pro lax gun laws in the states...

Name one other country in the World that suffers from college massacres? Or Mass murders? on the scale that the US does?

Having difficulty finding other countries? I though you would....
2007-05-17 02:09:08
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6777|PNW

|BFC|Icenflame wrote:

I'd hate to think of the madness in this country if every citizen had the right to bear arms?
What about the madness in Africa if every government had the right to bear arms? Wait...
2007-05-17 02:09:50
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6561
Self defence - shoot to maim though at least, rather than kill. Righteous war.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-05-17 02:10:07)

2007-05-17 02:14:53
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6400|The Gem Saloon

|BFC|Icenflame wrote:

I still can't get over the fact at how lax American Firearms laws are? I know its your 2nd amendment "right" to be able to arm yourself but come on think about how paranoid does a nation have to be to have an LAW stating that citizens have the RIGHT to bear arms?

Thats just my opinion. Here in South Africa we have extremely stringent firearm laws in fact if you shoot a robber in your house that is not armed with a firearm you are most likely going to be charged with Manslaughter it happens here all the time! The robber gets killed and the shooter get hauled off to jail.

I know many would disagree with this sentiment but it places more responsibility in the hands of firearm holders prevents trigger happy people! And I would say that 7/10 times there is an armed robbery the person with the firearm who thought he was GI Joe gets p00ned ! And then there is another Firearm on the streets ! woopeeee!

Ok taken in context we have a lot of illegal firearms in South Africa and most of them are your Automatic AK-47 they came across the boarder from all the civil wars in Africa now that there is peace the weapons are being sold to criminals hell you can pick up a AK-47 on the black market for R500.00 thats just under $67.00

And a 9mm Semi-Auto Berta (Police issue) costs about R150.00 thats about $20.00 some of the gun runners even rent out their 9mm for the day!

I'd hate to think of the madness in this country if every citizen had the right to bear arms?

I have a question to post to everyone thats is pro lax gun laws in the states...

Name one other country in the World that suffers from college massacres? Or Mass murders? on the scale that the US does?

Having difficulty finding other countries? I though you would....
first, you dont talk about our constitution as "Rights". we were born here, those are our fucking rights, you dont like it? kiss my ass.

do you think all the gun runners would like for civilians to arm themselves to defend against cheap kalishnikovs and out dated handguns?


anyway........

 

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