lowing
Banned
+1,662|7017|USA
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 69_pf.html

Say again, about this peace loving religion you all so vehemently defend. Tell me again how it is just a small minority of people that feel this way. They teach hate and intolerance in their schools!! I can not wait to see the tap dance around this. It will be like watching River Dance all over again.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6927
Apart from the fact that you aren't looking and Muslims, but a small subsect (Wahabbists)?  Or apart from the fact that the issue isn't the religion, but the government, who are responsible for curriculum?  Or apart from the fact that the US did the same thing during the Cold War?
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6656|Éire
What's the matter lowing? This is your good buddies Saudi Arabia. Perhaps your Government should stop turning a blind eye to their terrible regime?

Saudi Arabia is not Islam. It's just trying to put it's own twisted spin on the religion for it's own ends in the same way that Bush bastardises Christianity by claiming to have a strong sense of inner drive from his Christian God.
<BoTM>J_Aero
Qualified Expert
+62|6831|Melbourne - Home of Football
Once again you characterise part of Islam, Wahabbism, as being Islam. This is the literal equivalent of defining Seventh Day Adventists as Christians, game over. (River Dance is cool).
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7088|Eastern PA
So the fuck what? Some Muslims are bad people that do shitty things...*gasp*
san4
The Mas
+311|7054|NYC, a place to live
It's true that Wahabbism is not Islam, but is there a muslim country with official textbooks that are more tolerant? I would be pleasantly surprised to see that.
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7088|Eastern PA

san4 wrote:

It's true that Wahabbism is not Islam, but is there a muslim country with official textbooks that are more tolerant? I would be pleasantly surprised to see that.
Look at Tunisia.

Unlike Islamic curricula in some Arab states, the Islamic curricula in Tunisia consist of a compilation of articles and book excerpts from a variety of original sources. For example, the 11th-grade textbook on Islamic thought is a compilation of articles by 29 authors - including excerpts of books and essays by renowned scholars such as 14th-century North African scholar and historian Ibn Khaldun, 9th-10th century Iraqi theologian Abu Al-Hasan Al-Ash'ari, and luminary Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali, alongside Muslim reformist thinkers from the modern period, such as Rifa' Al-Tahtawi, Jamal Al-Din Al-Afghani, Muhammad 'Abduh, Ali 'Abd Al-Razeq, 'Abd Al-Rahman Al-Kawakibi, Muhammad Rashid Rida, and Sa'd Al-Din Ibrahim.

An examination of the 11th and 12th grade schoolbooks shows that they focus on three aspects: the separation between religion and politics, individual freedom, and tolerance for the other.

In addition, the schoolbooks do not limit themselves to discussion of any one religious stream, but rather highlight the different schools within Islam. Thus, although Tunisia is overwhelmingly Sunni, the Islamic schoolbooks devote much space to Shi'ism.

This report examines two textbooks on Islamic thought for the 11th and 12th grades in Tunisia, and provides a general overview of some of the books' major themes: secular versus religious rule, the necessity of avoiding religious conflict, the need for education in order to attain freedom and harmonize between religion and modernity, the value of the European Enlightenment, and the importance of consultation, tolerance and dialogue.

In essence, the Islamic education curricula in Tunisia represent a continuation of the spirit of the early salafiyya (Islamic reformers). While in contemporary usage the word salafi has become a near-synonym for "radical Islamist," many of the original salafiyya, including those whose writings are included in the Tunisian textbooks, promoted a moderate form of Islam and openness to modernity. The movement was later largely subsumed into both Arab nationalism and Islamism, with Muslim liberalism being progressively relegated to the sidelines. Historically, Tunisia has been something of an exception to this trend, and this is reflected in the schoolbooks discussed here.

At the same time, some of the books' subject matter - like the chapter on knowledge as a remedy to despotism, or readings such as the one titled "Freedom is the Basis of Power" - may seem to be at odds with political realities in contemporary Tunisia under the autocratic Ben Ali regime, and one may wonder why they are still in use. This can be explained by the fact that the schoolbooks were written during the presidency of Habib Bourguiba, the founder of modern Tunisia, whose rule was both more popular and more liberal, if not entirely democratic, and whose reformist orientation remains the official ideology of the current regime.
EDIT: I would like to point out that (despite the assertions of some on the forums here) Islam isn't one monolithic entity. Like any religion it absorbs the particulars of whichever culture it encounters. Extremism is particularly rare in some of the North and West African countries (in this context, Algeria and Sudan are rare, Morocco, Tunisia, Senegal, etc. are much more the norm).

Last edited by Masques (2007-04-22 19:58:58)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6927

san4 wrote:

It's true that Wahabbism is not Islam, but is there a muslim country with official textbooks that are more tolerant? I would be pleasantly surprised to see that.
That would have more to do with the level of advancement in Muslim areas than with Islam itself, though.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7017|USA
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/a … oryid=6835 oops, intolerance not just for Saudi Arabia anymore.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u … 600686.ece ( now what would they be afraid of, I wonder?)


here let me add this one as well   http://www.boston.com/news/world/middle … n_schools/


man all these students learning soooo much hate and intolerance, seems to me more than just a minority of Muslims believe this shit.

Last edited by lowing (2007-04-22 20:43:49)

usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7128

Braddock wrote:

What's the matter lowing? This is your good buddies Saudi Arabia. Perhaps your Government should stop turning a blind eye to their terrible regime?
Try not to overlook other countries in the same bed...

Saudi Arabia, Ireland to Forge Alliances

http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story_s.a … 1093139287
"Menafn-Arab News) RIYADH, 17 January 2007 � With bilateral trade hovering around $360 million annually, the Kingdom and Ireland have decided to revitalize the joint economic commission and forge strategic alliances in the context of the multibillion dollar economic cities to be set up in different parts of the Kingdom."



"IRELAND BACKS SAUDI WTO BID"
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-148617_ITM

http://www.muslimtrade.net/tradeguideline/saudia/

http://www.saudia-online.com/direction_of_trade.html
"The ranking of the top five exporting countries to Saudi Arabia during 1990 placed the U.S. at first place with an importation value of SR15,062 million (U.S. $4,016.5 million) representing about 17 percent of the Kingdom's total imports (see table 16). Japan was in the second place (SR13,815 million, or U.S.$3,684 million), followed by England (SR10,182 million, or U.S.$2,715.2 million), Germany (SR6,645 million, or U.S.$1,772 million), and Switzerland (SR5,929 million, or U.S.$1,581.07 million).'
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7017|USA

Bubbalo wrote:

Apart from the fact that you aren't looking and Muslims, but a small subsect (Wahabbists)?  Or apart from the fact that the issue isn't the religion, but the government, who are responsible for curriculum?  Or apart from the fact that the US did the same thing during the Cold War?
Sorry bubbalo, I was in school during the cold war and I was never taught anything like the bullshit that is fed to these kids.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6927
No, instead you were taught that Communism was inherently evil and Communists were the enemies of all that was good.

It's what countries to do get their populace on side.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7017|USA

usmarine2005 wrote:

Braddock wrote:

What's the matter lowing? This is your good buddies Saudi Arabia. Perhaps your Government should stop turning a blind eye to their terrible regime?
Try not to overlook other countries in the same bed...

Saudi Arabia, Ireland to Forge Alliances

http://www.menafn.com/qn_news_story_s.a … 1093139287
"Menafn-Arab News) RIYADH, 17 January 2007 � With bilateral trade hovering around $360 million annually, the Kingdom and Ireland have decided to revitalize the joint economic commission and forge strategic alliances in the context of the multibillion dollar economic cities to be set up in different parts of the Kingdom."



"IRELAND BACKS SAUDI WTO BID"
http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/summary_0199-148617_ITM

http://www.muslimtrade.net/tradeguideline/saudia/

http://www.saudia-online.com/direction_of_trade.html
"The ranking of the top five exporting countries to Saudi Arabia during 1990 placed the U.S. at first place with an importation value of SR15,062 million (U.S. $4,016.5 million) representing about 17 percent of the Kingdom's total imports (see table 16). Japan was in the second place (SR13,815 million, or U.S.$3,684 million), followed by England (SR10,182 million, or U.S.$2,715.2 million), Germany (SR6,645 million, or U.S.$1,772 million), and Switzerland (SR5,929 million, or U.S.$1,581.07 million).'
Boy, ya gotta hate that
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6927
Braddock isn't the one complaining about Saudi Arabia.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7017|USA

Bubbalo wrote:

No, instead you were taught that Communism was inherently evil and Communists were the enemies of all that was good.

It's what countries to do get their populace on side.
Never was taught any such thing. I was taught history and the basis of our govt.  We never talked about Communism except the fact that it existed.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7128

Bubbalo wrote:

Braddock isn't the one complaining about Saudi Arabia.
I am just responding to that comment.  Since a lot of you seem to think it is just the US and Saudi who have relations.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7017|USA

usmarine2005 wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

Braddock isn't the one complaining about Saudi Arabia.
I am just responding to that comment.  Since a lot of you seem to think it is just the US and Saudi who have relations.
he knows that, but when you are defenseless in your argument, you will try and redirect as much as possible.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6895|Global Command

Bubbalo wrote:

Apart from the fact that you aren't looking and Muslims, but a small subsect (Wahabbists)?  Or apart from the fact that the issue isn't the religion, but the government, who are responsible for curriculum?  Or apart from the fact that the US did the same thing during the Cold War?
Appeaser.

You seek to excuse at every turn those whom ultimately bear responsibility for the current war; radical Islam under all its names.

Children learn what they are taught. The religious system in the ME is doing nothing but breeding warriors for the battlefield and you know it.

Perhaps there need to be instituted a separation of church and state there. Perhaps that is our long term objective. Unless this is done, ultimately it will become a war of survival, and it is one that we shall win.
NemeSiS-Factor
Favorite Weapon? Pistol
+29|7036|Everett, WA, US
We should ban religion.
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|6952|Montreal
wow what a surprise lowing and ATG condeming Saudi Arabia while conveniently overlooking that their own country is the #1 supporter of Saudi Arabia. And then trying to deflect blame to Ireland as if that somehow excuses America of all wrong doings in this matter. Thank god I learned a long time ago that arguing with lowing is useless.
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7128

JimmyBotswana wrote:

wow what a surprise lowing and ATG condeming Saudi Arabia while conveniently overlooking that their own country is the #1 supporter of Saudi Arabia. And then trying to deflect blame to Ireland as if that somehow excuses America of all wrong doings in this matter. Thank god I learned a long time ago that arguing with lowing is useless.
Whether you import/export 2 dollars or 3, or 4, or 5.  Does it really make you any better?
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7017|USA

JimmyBotswana wrote:

wow what a surprise lowing and ATG condeming Saudi Arabia while conveniently overlooking that their own country is the #1 supporter of Saudi Arabia. And then trying to deflect blame to Ireland as if that somehow excuses America of all wrong doings in this matter. Thank god I learned a long time ago that arguing with lowing is useless.
Don't look now Frenchie, this thread is not about economics. It is about you all saying that Islam is a peace loving religion when in fact it, hate and intolerance is what is being taught throughout the ME within their school system.

You never brought much of a challenge to the table anyway. Debating with your ass was like shooting fish in a barrel. Maybe easier, fish at least moved. Try arguing a point instead of personal attacks, maybe you might win me over.
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7088|Eastern PA

lowing wrote:

JimmyBotswana wrote:

wow what a surprise lowing and ATG condeming Saudi Arabia while conveniently overlooking that their own country is the #1 supporter of Saudi Arabia. And then trying to deflect blame to Ireland as if that somehow excuses America of all wrong doings in this matter. Thank god I learned a long time ago that arguing with lowing is useless.
Don't look now Frenchie, this thread is not about economics. It is about you all saying that Islam is a peace loving religion when in fact it, hate and intolerance is what is being taught throughout the ME within their school system.

You never brought much of a challenge to the table anyway. Debating with your ass was like shooting fish in a barrel. Maybe easier, fish at least moved. Try arguing a point instead of personal attacks, maybe you might win me over.
All you have are a couple of stories about Saudi Arabia and a school affiliated with the Iranian regime (that they would be intolerant is no surprise) yet you extrapolate that to Muslims and the Middle East in general. Frankly, your point is bullshit.

It's true that such things are taught in SA and Iran (again, no surprise there), but to assume that of Muslims as a whole is engaging in bigotry of the worst sort.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6921
Any of you sensationalist idiots notice this entry from the Saudi textbook:

"True belief means . . . that you hate the polytheists and infidels but do not treat them unjustly."

Thought not. Wahabism is terrible but most muslims aren't wahabi.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-23 01:18:52)

GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6739|Kyiv, Ukraine
Afghani-flavored Islamic radicalism was actually a facet of a CIA operation in the 1980's in Afghanistan.  To his credit, Bush and his schoolteacher wife Laura did indeed address this problem, but the blowback from this operation will be felt for at least a generation or two.

The ABC's of Jihad

These textbooks, picturing violence in the name of Islam, were originally printed in the USA by the millions and shipped to Afghanistan and Pakistan.  The effort was originally meant to radicalise by Islam the school kids against "atheist" communist occupation.  Of course, no one could have imagined that they would perceive Christianity and western materialism as nearly the same thing as godless Communism.

Makes you wonder how many other Cold War operations are being felt today that we don't know about, on top of all the dictators we armed, trained, and put in power.

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2007-04-23 00:20:14)

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