BF2S Forums 3 Bullsh*t Arguments from Pro Gun Fraternity

konfusion wrote:

SteikeTa wrote:

Damn it is amazing how different countries can be. Here not even the police carry guns. Just in what we would call extreme situations. I know police do so in most countries, even security guards. I remember one of the times I was traveling to Brazil. Saw a security guard at a mall carrying a gun. Got surprised. Did not expect that. Normal security guards. Here in Norway, they can't even carry pepper spray and/or tazer gun(not sure about that word)! There are huge differences. After reading a lot of the posts here, I understand your views and opinions and where you are coming from when saying it. I just do not agree. Have to admit, I did not know that you already could carry a concealed gun in USA. Is that just some states or did I misunderstand?

Anyway, debating with people from other nations is a learning experience. Bumping heads as you say hehe
I don't think of the USA as wild west, but I know and see that many do. So.... "The Hill"?? *Squinting" at the screen*

Except in Brazil, I'm especially talking about Rio here, we have the problem that the government and police forces are corrupt. Police forces who own guns sell them illegally to Gangs in Favelas (outskirts of the city - the poorest parts). They then use the fact that these guys have guns as an excuse to shoot them, and that is why we currently have a dead count average of about 5 per day in Rio alone!
It's really messed up.

edit:

hate&discontent wrote:

i'm tired of debating with people who think they know everything about America's problems and how to fix them, and they are not even American.  if you are not from the U.S. keep your nose out of our business, plain and simple.

See, now with comments like this you are not achieving anything. You will start a massive outrage with arguments after arguments after arguments ...
Do not try and be 'smart' or anything. What the USA does affects other people too, especially people who live there, have family members living there etc.
So in the end effect, it is everyone's business. After all - you don't say that the USA had no business with killing Saddam Hussein, do you? Or that they had no business giving Israel guns?
Think before you say something as arrogant as that.

-konfusion

Man, I loved being in Brazil. I visited Fortaleza. Ever been there? Been there twice. If it had weren't for the traveling time, I would have gone there several times. 24 hours is a loooong time flying, waiting and changing planes 3-4 times. Rio is about 3-4 hours away from Fortaleza in a plane right? Derailing a little bit, but that's ok.

Last edited by SteikeTa (2007-04-19 15:05:33)

hate&discontent wrote:

i'm tired of debating with people who think they know everything about America's problems and how to fix them, and they are not even American.  if you are not from the U.S. keep your nose out of our business, plain and simple.  i agree to disagree on the gun regulation topics.  i think i'm pretty much done posting on this thread, unless something really peaks my interest.  now if you want to talk guns, what is good, not so good, popular makes, models and calibers, i'm all ears.

I'm with you on this.

Wraith wrote:

hate&discontent wrote:

i'm tired of debating with people who think they know everything about America's problems and how to fix them, and they are not even American.  if you are not from the U.S. keep your nose out of our business, plain and simple.

Who here has said they "know everything about America's problems and how to fix them"?  I have read every post in this thread and don't remember anyone saying that.  There have been a lot of inflammatory posts, a lot of opinions and a lot of suggestions about ideas that people think may work, but it's not like anyone has posted a "10 step programme to fix America's problems" have they?

As for the second part of your comment about "keeping our noses out of your business" I have to say that's an incredibly churlish and closed minded attitude.  Because we're not American we aren't allowed to add our validly held opinions to what I find to be an incredibly interesting debate?  I don't agree with a lot of what has been posted here, but I have tried to keep an open mind and considered the arguments put forward (with the exception of the childish insults being flung back and forth).  Several of them have opened my eyes to valid points that hadn't even crossed my mind.  I have learned a lot from this thread, not just about US culture and laws but about the cultures and laws of other countries as well (Australia, New Zealand, Canada and Switzerland to name a few).  I even learned a few things about the laws in my own country that I wasn't fully aware of before.  I posted my opinions earlier in the thread because I felt I had valid counterarguments to some of the points made and I don't see why, based on my nationality, I should be restricted from expressing them on an open forum which is titled "Debate and Serious Talk".  It wouldn't be much of a debate if everyone held the same opinion would it?

At the end of the day, I think it would be beneficial if guns were more tightly controlled in America, but a) that is only my opinion and b) I realise the likelihood of that happening is so low as to be non-existent.

I would like to thank everyone who has posted rationally on this thread for making it an extremely informative and enlightening debate.

By the way, in case you were thinking that I am "just another gun hating Englishman", let me say that I have no problem with guns, provided they are properly controlled.  In fact I was a member of the Territorial Army here in the UK (our reserve army forces), so I have experienced live firing on a number of occasions.  I have fired the SA-80, the Browning 9mm and an AK-47.  I found it to be a lot of fun every time, and can quite easily understand where the passion for it comes from.  I just wish there was more shooting at paper targets, and less shooting at other people.

im glad you have learned things in this thread. it has been very informative for me as well regarding other countries gun laws.
i think what hate&discontent (correct me if im wrong) was trying to say that no matter how many times we try to explain that it wont work, people keep posting saying that guns need to be banned in the US. i admit even my frustration has gotten the better of me in this thread at parts because i feel so strongly about this subject.

its nice to hear you talk about firearms being fun to shoot....i agree and i go once a week, a commitment or responsibility if you will.

i too wish there were less shootings here, but the things that need to be done to truly eliminate the problem cant be done in this country.

doctastrangelove1964 wrote:

redhawk454 wrote:

Kill the Queen
Then worry about the rest

What would that do?

Fist off she has no real power and second off she is ethnically German, not English. Killing her is pointless.

It decreases the surplus population for about 0.0003 seconds.

my 2c.

responsible gun ownership is an illusion, just like the idea of the law-abiding citizen. Under the right circumstances, everyone has the potential to snap and harm others. The VT shootings are just another example of that. Background checks don't help here.

I don't believe in statistics, but if anything has become evident over the course of mankind, it is that ordinary people ( meaning, civilians ) can not handle the right to bear arms responsibly.

No offense towards specific members of this forum. I am sure you are the exceptions. I am talking humans in general. We are only partly under control. We give in to impulses, we let our emotions get the best of us.
Humans just can't be trusted.

Which is why I believe firearms do not belong in the hands of civilians.

Interestingly, the US constitution has it the other way round. It acknowledges the right for every citizen to own a gun, so he can protect himself from his government, and - more importantly - from his fellow citizens.

So , instead of at least trying to take the guns aways, you just give everyone guns. Wow...

Nevertheless, I agree with bob_6012, Cameron,. etc. Guns are too much of a "national heritage" in the US. None of us will see a total ban on handguns in our lifetime.

What I don't agree with is the reasoning behind it. I hear Americans say " it just can't be done".
Oh please, give me a break. America is the classic example of a country where anything can be done / achieved, if you set your mind to it. Remember, your constitution is legislation, man made, thus a choice. In other words, you chose to "invent" private gun ownership, you can choose to "un-invent" it.

The question is, do you want to ?

I am sure we all agree that more can and must be done to help prevent shootings such as the one at VT in the future. Part of the responsibility is on the government, to make the best laws possible, part is on society to do its part to identify potential shooters and help them to get over whatever is causing them emotional harm.

What are you willing to give up to make your society better ? Your gun, maybe ?

America is a violent country. It was conceived at gunpoint, and guns have played a significant role in your nation's history ever since.

And as long as America as a whole is unwilling to make their nation a more peaceful one, you will have to live with the fact that ordinary, previously law-abiding citizens, maybe even responsible gun owners snap, and start shooting in a mall, office or school. Your choice.

My personal approach to the gun control problem:

- ban sale of firearms to private citizens
- ban sale of ammunition to private citizens.
- in theory, all legally purchased guns are registered. get them back, and destroy them.

Once all sale of ammunition has been banned, it will be very hard for criminals to fire their weapons.
illegal gun ownership will be rare, and therefore much easier to track down by the various law enforcement agencies.

- outlaw all firearms imports to the US
- outlaw all ammunition imports to the US

if you spent a tiny bit of your defense budget on border security, this can be achieved. It is a lot of work, but it can be done.

But the most important prerequisite is this: everyone has to be willing to sacrifice a little personal security for the benefit of the nation. Only if the will of the people is there, can all of the above be pulled through.

Bottom line: it can be done, you just don't want to. You love your guns, and you are obviously willing to accept that innocent people die because of it.

PS: Yes, I have been called an idealist, blue-eyed and an utopian (sp) before. Nothing new here....

And btw, to those who say they keep their guns to make sure their constitutional rights are never stripped from them by a corrupt government: where were you when they brought in the Patriot Act ?

thanks Parker that's along the lines of what i meant.  and for Konfusion, no i don't think that the U.S. should have killed saddam, he should've been handed back over to the iraqies and they should've handled that.  you know why?  because i'm pretty sure that they would've tourted the hell out of him for what he did over there.
and for Wraith, you're right i miss quoted myself, who gives a shit.  and yes people are entitled to their opinion, it's like an asshole, everyone has one, whether it works or not is another story.  you know hindsight is always 20/20.  there are many things that the American gov't has done, that i don't approve of, and i'm sure that goes for every country on the planet, but that's just the way it is.  at one point in time the American people had weapons to protect themselves from foreign governments and from there own government, it has been instilled in many of us here in the States.  i took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the U.S. from all enemies both foreign and domestic, and that is what i will do.  in the heat of battle, somethings that are said, are better off not said.  it has been said way before this but i'll say it anyways, they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Last edited by hate&discontent (2007-04-20 07:17:03)

Why would a brit give a fuck about laws in the US.

Ah yes the global one world government supporters.

They want to get our guns so they can take us over.

NOT!

theelviscerator wrote:

Why would a brit give a fuck about laws in the US.

Ah yes the global one world government supporters.

They want to get our guns so they can take us over.

NOT!

brit: technically a derogative term

Now to start my actual post: Why do we give a fuck? - Do you care? We're entitled to an opinion, just as you are. If you don't like it, ignore it, but it's still there.

edit:

hate&discontent wrote:

no i don't think that the U.S. should have killed saddam, he should've been handed back over to the iraqies and they should've handled that.  you know why?  because i'm pretty sure that they would've tourted the hell out of him for what he did over there.

Saddam was handed back to the Iraqis. He was put on Iraqi trial. They did not "tourted-" er... "torture the hell out of him", as you saw (the hanging was pretty much shown all over the world). Furthermore, there are still many Saddam-supporters "at large" today.

-konfusion

Last edited by konfusion (2007-04-20 11:57:17)