Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7012|132 and Bush

https://i18.tinypic.com/4i1mird.jpg
An opinion for discussion

By Ralph Peters

On Tuesday, Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki obeyed Muqtada al-Sadr's command to withdraw U.S. troops from Baghdad's Sadr City. He halted a vital U.S. military operation. It was the third time in less than a month that al-Maliki had sided with the anti-American cleric against our forces.


.                                 https://i13.tinypic.com/2czyon8.png 

President Bush insists that we have no conflicts with the al-Maliki government. The president isn't telling the truth — or he himself doesn't support our military's efforts. He can't have it both ways. Bush appears increasingly desperate just to get through the upcoming elections.

I supported the removal of Saddam Hussein. I believed that Arabs deserved a chance to build a rule-of-law democracy in the Middle East. Based upon firsthand experience, I was convinced that the Middle East was so politically, socially, morally and intellectually stagnant that we had to risk intervention — or face generations of terrorism and tumult. I still believe that our removal of Hussein was a noble act.

I only wish the administration had done it competently.

Hope is dwindling

Iraq is failing. No honest observer can conclude otherwise. Even six months ago, there was hope. Now the chances for a democratic, unified Iraq are dwindling fast. The country's prime minister has thrown in his lot with al-Sadr, our mortal enemy. He has his eye on the future, and he's betting that we won't last. The police are less accountable than they were under Saddam. Our extensive investment in Iraqi law enforcement only produced death squads. Government ministers loot the country to strengthen their own factions. Even Iraq's elections — a worthy experiment — further divided Iraq along confessional and ethnic lines. Iraq still exists on the maps, but in reality it's gone. Only a military coup — which might come in the next few years — could hold the artificial country together.

.                                                   https://i15.tinypic.com/2rfpilw.jpg 

This chaos wasn't inevitable. While in Iraq late last winter, I remained soberly hopeful. Since then, the strength of will of our opponents — their readiness to pay any price and go to any length to win — has eclipsed our own. The valor of our enemies never surpassed that of our troops, but it far exceeded the fair-weather courage of the Bush administration.

Yet, for all our errors, we did give the Iraqis a unique chance to build a rule-of-law democracy. They preferred to indulge in old hatreds, confessional violence, ethnic bigotry and a culture of corruption. It appears that the cynics were right: Arab societies can't support democracy as we know it. And people get the government they deserve.

For us, Iraq's impending failure is an embarrassment. For the Iraqis — and other Arabs — it's a disaster the dimensions of which they do not yet comprehend. They're gleeful at the prospect of America's humiliation. But it's their tragedy, not ours.

https://i13.tinypic.com/2udzzmv.png

Iraq was the Arab world's last chance to board the train to modernity, to give the region a future, not just a bitter past. The violence staining Baghdad's streets with gore isn't only a symptom of the Iraqi government's incompetence, but of the comprehensive inability of the Arab world to progress in any sphere of organized human endeavor. We are witnessing the collapse of a civilization. All those who rooted for Iraq to fail are going to be chastened by what follows.

Iraq still deserves one last chance — as long as we don't confuse deadly stubbornness and perseverance. If, at this late hour, Iraqis in decisive numbers prove willing to fight for their own freedom and a constitutional government, we should be willing to remain for a generation. If they continue to revel in fratricidal slaughter, we must leave.

Iraq not our Vietnam

And contrary to the prophets of doom, the United States wouldn't be weakened by our withdrawal, should it come to that. Iraq was never our Vietnam. It's al-Qaeda's Vietnam. They're the ones who can't leave and who can't win.

Islamist terrorists have chosen Iraq as their battleground and, even after our departure, it will continue to consume them. We'll still be the greatest power on earth, indispensable to other regional states — such as the Persian Gulf states and Saudi Arabia — that are terrified of Iran's growing might. If the Arab world and Iran embark on an orgy of bloodshed, the harsh truth is that we may be the beneficiaries.

My disillusionment with our Iraq endeavor began last summer, when I was invited to a high-level discussion with administration officials. I went into the meeting with one firm goal, to convince my hosts that they'd better have Plan B in case Iraq continued to disintegrate. I left the session convinced that the administration still didn't have Plan A, only a blur of meandering policies and blind hopes. After more than three years, it was still "An Evening at the Improv."

Then, last month, as Iraq's prime minister seconded al-Sadr's demand that our troops free a death-squad mastermind they had captured, I knew a fateful page had turned. A week later, al-Maliki forbade additional U.S. military raids in Sadr City, the radical mullah's Baghdad stronghold. On Tuesday, al-Maliki insisted that our troops remove roadblocks set up to help find a kidnapped U.S. soldier. Iraq's prime minister has made his choice. We're not it. It's time to face reality. Only Iraqis can save Iraq now — and they appear intent on destroying it. Après nous, le deluge.


Iraq could have turned out differently. It didn't. And we must be honest about it. We owe that much to our troops. They don't face the mere forfeiture of a few congressional seats but the loss of their lives. Our military is now being employed for political purposes. It's unworthy of our nation.

Ralph Peters solution to the Mid-East
https://i15.tinypic.com/2ugifc0.png

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-04-10 21:21:24)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6940|Global Command
nukchebi0
Пушкин, наше всё
+387|6735|New Haven, CT
I am sure Pakistan would be overjoyed at that proposal. And, while we are at that, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Iran.
LT.Victim
Member
+1,175|6974|British Columbia, Canada
Your going to have major problems if you try and re-draw the borders over there..
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7012|132 and Bush

LT.Victim wrote:

Your going to have major problems if you try and re-draw the borders over there..
It's gonna happen one way or another.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6966
The failure of the US in Iraq is testament to the naivety of many Americans world view. Understand the following facts:

a) One cannot expect an alien culture and civilisation to adopt American values when they find many of those values abhorrent and even find some of them sacrilegious.

b) It is sickeningly patronising to talk of giving Iraq the 'chance' to build a 'rule-of-law democracy'. "Poor little Iraqis - they can't look after themselves". Give me a fucking break. There is not one proud man on this planet who would view this kind of attitude with anything other than the contempt and indignation it deserves. If they wanted a 'rule-of-law democracy' so bad they would have ousted Saddam themselves. Even Nazi-occupied France had a resistance movement for Christ's sake. For an external party to decide they know what's best for a people living thousands of miles away (in terms of distance and culture) will generally be frowned upon.

c) It was patently obvious from the outset that Iraq would divide along ethnic/religious lines without an iron-fisted dictator. Blind stupidity would have been required not to predict this inevitability.

d) In most of the Arab and Muslim world America is dubbed 'the Great Satan', mainly for their position in supporting Israel unflinchingly. Could you ever realistically expect that a US-sponsored 'democracy' in Iraq was doomed to anything other than failure, given this fact? Practically no-one in the Islamic world trusts America. How could America think they would be seen as bringers of lasting 'liberty' and 'freedom'? They half-finished a more pressing job in Afghanistan to go on this unnecessary tangent - that in itself would not inspire confidence.

f) "I only wish the administration had done it competently." The task the US was purported to have been carrying out was and is impossible and as such no amount of 'competency' would have rescued this shit-sack of a situation.

g) 'Iraqi' is a misnomer. There is no such thing really. To speak of Iraq and Iraqis shows a lack of understanding of the fact that people in Iraq are not bound by nationality. Iraqis are not a unified group of people fighting for one goal. True 'Iraqis' are probably few in number at this stage.

"Iraq was the Arab world's last chance to board the train to modernity, to give the region a future, not just a bitter past." What a patronising cunt. The Islamic world advanced mankind to a far greater extent than the Christian world during the middle ages. Only yesterday the president of Iran announced the fact that they have 'entered the nuclear club of nations' - a shocking achievement if, like this idiot, you believe Arabs and Muslims have missed their 'last chance to board the train to modernity' and probably dwell in caves of some description. The Arab world is just a different phase of political development from the West and may or may not choose the West's example as the best way forward.

"It's al-Qaeda's Vietnam. They're the ones who can't leave and who can't win." They win every day because their goals are easy to achieve - continue to cause mayhem in Iraq, undermine US hegemony in the middle east, kill American soldiers, stir ethnic/religious violence. It's hard for Al Qaeda not to win as far as I can see. They don't want to leave and at the moment I can't see how they will be made to leave. Time will tell.

"Only Iraqis can save Iraq now — and they appear intent on destroying it." It's theirs to destroy - get over it. They'll rebuild it to their own designs when they're done ironing out who's the boss and whether or not Iraq exists anymore.

BOTTOM LINE: Stay the fuck out of others affairs unless they've attacked you or are a real, genuine and imminent threat to your nation (and no Iraq did not fall into this category), irrespective of whether your motives are 'righteous'. That goes to all interventionists out there. Learn your lesson from this failure and don't engage in any such follies in the future.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-10 02:03:21)

JahManRed
wank
+646|7039|IRELAND

This was supposed to be nation building.
Unfortunately I agree that Iraqi will be better off divided up. So Nation building has become nation splitting. What ever the road, leave it to the Iraqi's to do it. The US isn't entirely responsible for this inevitable split. The country was formed 'unnaturally' in the first place.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7012|132 and Bush

They had opportunity. I agree with what the author said "They preferred to indulge in old hatreds, confessional violence, ethnic bigotry and a culture of corruption." That is a fact. They made their choice and that is what they will have till the end of time. Proof positive now more than ever, that region is the old decayed civilization of mankind. Democracy is not just an "American value".

In Nazi ruled France they did not have the opportunity to choose who they wanted in power, they did not have elections, and the French were not freed from a brutal regime. That comparison fails on many levels.

Everything is obvious after the fact. Although I do think the hate and incompetence of Iraqi's should have been more clear to those who made the decisions. My only hope has been to possibly get the country stable enough to avoid the now inevitable genocide/ethnic cleansing that will be left upon our withdrawal. I never anticipated the elected leaders siding with the radicals (I remind you he was elected by a majority also). Now it is imperative that we do not waste another Soldier or Dollar on a government who has aligned himself with a cleric who is responsible for the killing of our men and women.

Israel or no Israel the west will always be the great Satan. All the failures that the leaders of that region have made require someone to blame. Support for Israel just gives them one more reason, but there will always be another scapegoat. The Muslim civilization is incapable at looking at itself for accountability. They have demonstrated time and time again that they are unable to embrace change. The United States should have stopped liberating countries after WWII (Sorry Kuwait).

The hope for peace for them is completely decimated. It is theirs to destroy, I am over it, that is why I say poor Iraqi's.

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-04-10 02:55:16)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7062|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

The failure of the US in Iraq is testament to the naivety of many Americans world view. Understand the following facts:

a) One cannot expect an alien culture and civilisation to adopt American values when they find many of those values abhorrent and even find some of them sacrilegious.

b) It is sickeningly patronising to talk of giving Iraq the 'chance' to build a 'rule-of-law democracy'. "Poor little Iraqis - they can't look after themselves". Give me a fucking break. There is not one proud man on this planet who would view this kind of attitude with anything other than the contempt and indignation it deserves. If they wanted a 'rule-of-law democracy' so bad they would have ousted Saddam themselves. Even Nazi-occupied France had a resistance movement for Christ's sake. For an external party to decide they know what's best for a people living thousands of miles away (in terms of distance and culture) will generally be frowned upon.

c) It was patently obvious from the outset that Iraq would divide along ethnic/religious lines without an iron-fisted dictator. Blind stupidity would have been required not to predict this inevitability.

d) In most of the Arab and Muslim world America is dubbed 'the Great Satan', mainly for their position in supporting Israel unflinchingly. Could you ever realistically expect that a US-sponsored 'democracy' in Iraq was doomed to anything other than failure, given this fact? Practically no-one in the Islamic world trusts America. How could America think they would be seen as bringers of lasting 'liberty' and 'freedom'? They half-finished a more pressing job in Afghanistan to go on this unnecessary tangent - that in itself would not inspire confidence.

f) "I only wish the administration had done it competently." The task the US was purported to have been carrying out was and is impossible and as such no amount of 'competency' would have rescued this shit-sack of a situation.

g) 'Iraqi' is a misnomer. There is no such thing really. To speak of Iraq and Iraqis shows a lack of understanding of the fact that people in Iraq are not bound by nationality. Iraqis are not a unified group of people fighting for one goal. True 'Iraqis' are probably few in number at this stage.

"Iraq was the Arab world's last chance to board the train to modernity, to give the region a future, not just a bitter past." What a patronising cunt. The Islamic world advanced mankind to a far greater extent than the Christian world during the middle ages. Only yesterday the president of Iran announced the fact that they have 'entered the nuclear club of nations' - a shocking achievement if, like this idiot, you believe Arabs and Muslims have missed their 'last chance to board the train to modernity' and probably dwell in caves of some description. The Arab world is just a different phase of political development from the West and may or may not choose the West's example as the best way forward.

"It's al-Qaeda's Vietnam. They're the ones who can't leave and who can't win." They win every day because their goals are easy to achieve - continue to cause mayhem in Iraq, undermine US hegemony in the middle east, kill American soldiers, stir ethnic/religious violence. It's hard for Al Qaeda not to win as far as I can see. They don't want to leave and at the moment I can't see how they will be made to leave. Time will tell.

"Only Iraqis can save Iraq now — and they appear intent on destroying it." It's theirs to destroy - get over it. They'll rebuild it to their own designs when they're done ironing out who's the boss and whether or not Iraq exists anymore.

BOTTOM LINE: Stay the fuck out of others affairs unless they've attacked you or are a real, genuine and imminent threat to your nation (and no Iraq did not fall into this category), irrespective of whether your motives are 'righteous'. That goes to all interventionists out there. Learn your lesson from this failure and don't engage in any such follies in the future.
No Cam, it is a testiment to the failure of certain political groups to actually support our troops and let them finish the job they were tasked to do.

Supporting the troops does not mean brining them home so they don'y get killed like most of you suggest.

It means letting them do their jobs with the full backing of their country. When you support the troops, you support their mission. You simply can not say I support the troops but disagree with their efforts and their mission. THey were sent to Iraq to set up a stable working govt. The poiticians and the people that support these politicans did everything they possibly could to make sure that mission failed. All for the want of the White House.

Congratulations on yours and your terrorist allies for your victory. I sincerely hope that Iraq and all the ME that live like shit get everything they have coming.

I will heed your advice about minding our own business and support the complete an utter indifference to Africa.....YOU go and fix it, WE, will sit back and watch for a change.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7012|132 and Bush

Lowing the government that they are trying to support and protect in Iraq is now aligning itself with Moktada al-Sadr. You don't see a big problem there?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7062|USA

Kmarion wrote:

Lowing the government that they are trying to support and protect in Iraq is now aligning itself with Moktada al-Sadr. You don't see a big problem there?
any chance this is because the progress toward a real stable govt. has been thwarted by those at home? This new govt. sees and knows our stay there is short lived now, we will NOT be staying to finish the job that was tsked to our troops. I take all of this as the "new govt." as climbing into bed with who is going to be left there after we leave. This new govt. knows it has no power, it also knows it will not have the US there to help it. So it is trying to make friends with who will be there and can hurt them.

Last edited by lowing (2007-04-10 03:18:34)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7086|Canberra, AUS
OK... I can see both sides of the argument here. On one hand, it's HIS country, and in the end the aim is for self-dependance, which can't be gotten if US troops disobey Iraqi orders. On the other hand, I'm sure that the military commanders have some vague idea of what they're doing, and stopping an operation in the middle of the process is unwise to say the least.

As of now, I don't know where I stand.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7086|Canberra, AUS
Note: On the map, I see that Georgia, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan have had a pretty heavy whack to their lands, while Jordan, Kurdistan and Baluchistan (!) have had a fair windfall.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7012|132 and Bush

lowing wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Lowing the government that they are trying to support and protect in Iraq is now aligning itself with Moktada al-Sadr. You don't see a big problem there?
any chance this is because the progress toward a real stable govt. has been thwarted by those at home? This new govt. sees and knows our stay there is short lived now, we will NOT be staying to finish the job that was tsked to our troops. I take all of this as the "new govt." as climbing into bed with who is going to be left there after we leave. This new govt. knows it has no power, it also knows it will not have the US there to help it. So it is trying to make friends with who will be there and can hurt them.
That is very open minded of you. However, would you trust a government who is taking orders from someone who has been advocating and instructing the murder of Americans? Who do you put your faith with? I think it is pretty funny that Al Sadr gave orders to his Mehdi Army to stop anti-occupation attack on April fools day though...lol.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=13503

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-04-10 03:26:56)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6966

lowing wrote:

No Cam, it is a testiment to the failure of certain political groups to actually support our troops and let them finish the job they were tasked to do.

Supporting the troops does not mean brining them home so they don'y get killed like most of you suggest.

It means letting them do their jobs with the full backing of their country. When you support the troops, you support their mission. You simply can not say I support the troops but disagree with their efforts and their mission. THey were sent to Iraq to set up a stable working govt. The poiticians and the people that support these politicans did everything they possibly could to make sure that mission failed. All for the want of the White House.

Congratulations on yours and your terrorist allies for your victory. I sincerely hope that Iraq and all the ME that live like shit get everything they have coming.

I will heed your advice about minding our own business and support the complete an utter indifference to Africa.....YOU go and fix it, WE, will sit back and watch for a change.
Political groups not supporting your troops caused the failure!?! The job they were tasked to do was made absolutely impossible the day Paul Bremer dismantled the entire apparatus of government of the Ba'athist regime. It's as simple as that - it basically instituted chaos and anarchy as the norm in Iraq.

Lowing please refrain from addressing me as a terrorist or an ally of terrorists. That is a blatant insult and personal attack. I am stating facts here, not opinion. I am trying to enlighten and make people understand, because there is a shitload of people out there who can't (seemingly you included). If you had an external power dabbling in American affairs you might have a tiny sliver of empathy but unfortunately you don't.

You still don't get it do you? It would be hilarious to see someone go and 'fix' the Democratic Republic of Congo or some such failed African state. IT'S NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY OR MINE TO FIX. I can't think of one western nation that would be capable of 'fixing' any of the failed African states. We have enough problems of our own without riding in on a white stallion only to get repelled by machine gun toting gangsters on the backs of Toyota Hiluxes.

PS Lowing - you are FARRR too trusting of your government.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-10 03:29:44)

lowing
Banned
+1,662|7062|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

No Cam, it is a testament to the failure of certain political groups to actually support our troops and let them finish the job they were tasked to do.

Supporting the troops does not mean bringing them home so they don't get killed like most of you suggest.

It means letting them do their jobs with the full backing of their country. When you support the troops, you support their mission. You simply can not say I support the troops but disagree with their efforts and their mission. They were sent to Iraq to set up a stable working govt. The politicians and the people that support these politic ans did everything they possibly could to make sure that mission failed. All for the want of the White House.

Congratulations on yours and your terrorist allies for your victory. I sincerely hope that Iraq and all the ME that live like shit get everything they have coming.

I will heed your advice about minding our own business and support the complete an utter indifference to Africa.....YOU go and fix it, WE, will sit back and watch for a change.
Political groups not supporting your troops caused the failure!?! The job they were tasked to do was made absolutely impossible the day Paul Bremer dismantled the entire apparatus of government of the Ba'athist regime. It's as simple as that - it basically instituted chaos and anarchy as the norm in Iraq.

Lowing please refrain from addressing me as a terrorist or an ally of terrorists. That is a blatant insult and personal attack. I am stating facts here, not opinion. I am trying to enlighten and make people understand, because there is a shitload of people out there who can't (seemingly you included). If you had an external power dabbling in American affairs you might have a tiny sliver of empathy but unfortunately you don't.

You still don't get it do you? It would be hilarious to see someone go and 'fix' the Democratic Republic of Congo or some such failed African state. IT'S NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY OR MINE TO FIX. I can't think of one western nation that would be capable of 'fixing' any of the failed African states. We have enough problems of our own without riding in on a white stallion only to get repelled by machine gun toting gangsters on the backs of Toyota Hiluxes.

PS Lowing - you are FARRR too trusting of your government.
Cam I will stick by my posts, since I have read your posts you have always walked the fine edge of celebration and smugness at every US setback in the war.

You are the one who is comparing this to Vietnam, I am agreeing with you. Do you honestly think the US military could not have won Vietnam if it were not for the politic ans at home and those that support them? Do you honestly believe we could not bring ALL of the ME let alone Iraq if our military was charged to do so and left alone by Hilary and Kerry and the lot??

How I feel about my govt. has nothing to with this. I am speaking facts here. Our govt. sent our troops into war and then started to half ass supporting them. This is a failure. Unlike you I will not skirt around where my allegiance lies. It is with our troops, their mission, and total success in this war.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7062|USA

Kmarion wrote:

lowing wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Lowing the government that they are trying to support and protect in Iraq is now aligning itself with Moktada al-Sadr. You don't see a big problem there?
any chance this is because the progress toward a real stable govt. has been thwarted by those at home? This new govt. sees and knows our stay there is short lived now, we will NOT be staying to finish the job that was tsked to our troops. I take all of this as the "new govt." as climbing into bed with who is going to be left there after we leave. This new govt. knows it has no power, it also knows it will not have the US there to help it. So it is trying to make friends with who will be there and can hurt them.
That is very open minded of you. However, would you trust a government who is taking orders from someone who has been advocating and instructing the murder of Americans? Who do you put your faith with? I think it is pretty funny that Al Sadr gave orders to his Mehdi Army to stop anti-occupation attack on April fools day though...lol.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=13503
No I wouldn't, but the govt. you speak of knows it will be abandoned, it has seen the interal strife in the US over this. They already know they can not count on us anymore. Therefore, they have got to make peace with who WILL still be there.
JahManRed
wank
+646|7039|IRELAND

lowing wrote:

No Cam, it is a testiment to the failure of certain political groups to actually support our troops and let them finish the job they were tasked to do.
Ok, so everything was peaches and Roses when Bush and the Republicans had over all control of both houses. Can you show me some stats to show how things have got worse since the Dems got control of the house?

lowing wrote:

Supporting the troops does not mean brining them home so they don'y get killed like most of you suggest.

It means letting them do their jobs with the full backing of their country. When you support the troops, you support their mission. You simply can not say I support the troops but disagree with their efforts and their mission. THey were sent to Iraq to set up a stable working govt. The poiticians and the people that support these politicans did everything they possibly could to make sure that mission failed. All for the want of the White House.
The failure in Iraqi has got fuck all to do with Solders, American, French, British.......nothing. The failures are were made by the planners, the arrogant fuckwits who thought the deeply divided people of Iraqi would accept an elected government and occupation side by side in the first place. The failures lay with Republican politicians who allowed Plane loads of US dollars to be dished out to any tom dick or Harry without any record. The same money which is most likely funding allot of the attacks on American Solders today.  The failure lays with the US politicians and nation builders who allowed Politicians linked to death squads and insurgents into power while ordinary Americans, like Ex Police Chefs and city administrators cried and screamed foul, only to be quietly removed from office and sent home.
The ultimate failure was/is trying to fast track stability in Iraqi. It will take decades and unless the US was willing to commit to that kind of time line, they shouldn't have bothered.

lowing wrote:

Congratulations on yours and your terrorist allies for your victory. I sincerely hope that Iraq and all the ME that live like shit get everything they have coming.
Labeling people who question and point out obvious failures a terrorist is typical of the propaganda spewed by the Republican Right. If you are an American you at least get the honor of being called a Troop hating Democrat, the rest of us are just terrorists. Sweet.

Ok, so you went in to spread western democracy and values in a country and they reject it, so what, you now advocate the mutual punishment of the ME because they won't have western ideology forced on them?? Sounds like Stalinist Russian talk to me.

lowing wrote:

I will heed your advice about minding our own business and support the complete an utter indifference to Africa.....YOU go and fix it, WE, will sit back and watch for a change.
What a ridiculous statement. If all which you have just said is true the you should have went in and 'liberated' Africa first. You are all ready sitting back and watching, while your pharmaceutical companies Deni the AIDS drugs that will keep 10s of millions of Africans alive, while they patent well practiced and used traditional African medicines.............. Have a look at how the US was the only country who refused to sign The Cologne debt program, which sought to cancel debt to the poorest African nations in order for them to direct the massive interest payments they make each year into infrastructure and taking care of their peoples. FFS the debt was small change (2.2b) to the US purse but massive to  countries struggling with inflation. The US doesn't give a shit about Africa as theirs no money to be made.
joker3327
=IBF2=
+305|7009|Cheshire. UK
This has got to be a joke    Arab Shia State  (ASS)    Saudi Homelands Independant Territories   (SHIT)
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6966

joker3327 wrote:

This has got to be a joke    Arab Shia State  (ASS)    Saudi Homelands Independant Territories   (SHIT)
LOL. The guy who wrote it does have a touch of the Cyrus about him with his deliberately inflammatory condescension and arrogance!
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6966

lowing wrote:

Cam I will stick by my posts, since I have read your posts you have always walked the fine edge of celebration and smugness at every US setback in the war.
Very well then - I won't be debating with you any further on any topic. And I hate to do this but I will be reporting your post.
joker3327
=IBF2=
+305|7009|Cheshire. UK

CameronPoe wrote:

joker3327 wrote:

This has got to be a joke    Arab Shia State  (ASS)    Saudi Homelands Independant Territories   (SHIT)
LOL. The guy who wrote it does have a touch of the Cyrus about him with his deliberately inflammatory condescension and arrogance!
Oh you mean that Iranian president bloke
CannonFodder11b
Purple Heart Recipient
+73|7101|Fort Lewis WA
I dunno, but I feel like the government failed me.
Instead of giving us the tools we need to fight the insurgency and give them a fair chance at rebuilding, the government got lazy, and rushed a puppet government into place.  These people have not had freedom for a long time. Overnight they had a taste of freedom granted it was under military law, till we thought they were ready for the step to start controlling they're country.  I was here right after the fall of baghdad and spent 13 monthes in Mosul and various other places fighitng in random hotspots that popped up.  In those days if we needed air support, we got it. If we needed a MEDEVAC flight we got it.  Now if we call for Airsupport or even a GPS guided MLRS round to take out a high rise building full of Iranian and syrian "freedom fighters" We get put on hold and have to wait several hours while we get picked off one by one.  (Haifa street, baghdad the loss of my squad leader SSG Hector Leija, and 3 other platoon members were evaced back to the states because we couldn't get what we needed when we needed, sending in a platoon to clear out a high rise is bullshit, that building all 32 floors of it would have needed atleast a company to clear and hold)

The public got pissed about the Military Forces occupying Iraq...They called for an Iraqi Government.  The US Government backed off and rushed a vote to place in a government to run itself almost overnight.  The government took office, and we handed over most of control to these corrupt people.  Now because we rushed this government into place, this is Iraq.  Thank you tree huggers.  Thank you snivling bitches like mrs. clinton.  Most of the problems stem from this puppet Shia government that was rushed into place.  If you could see half of what we deal with you would understand  9/10 raids on a shia militia are cancelled, or we let the asshole go.  Yet we are free to raid sunni houses and sunni militia's.. Hell we dont have to release the sunni detainees.  90% of the time we don't even have the chance to bring them to the FOB we get orders to drop them off at an Iraqi army FOB.  Does that sound like its fair?  It doesn't to me.  The sunni hate us cause it seems we like to pick on them.  The shia hate us cause sadr

You FAILED me.  Not the other way around.  And now while you eat nice meals, and profit off my bleeding,
all the while playing political hardball, not giving us what we truely need to fight and survive.  I thank you all.

Its my blood and the blood of my friends that are trying to correct what the public insisted on happening. 
Now im extended, risking my life, for nothing.  But as long as that general running things gets a nice shiny new medal, I guess my blood is worth it. 

Don't blame me for holding the tail while the general pumps.
You want someone to blame?  Blame yourselves for crying and protesting, while we fight and bleed.  You made this political mess not me.  I have a commitment to follow through with.  I just shut the fuck up, signed for my weapons and ammo, and got on a fucking plane.
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|7073|USA
NIce maps in OP.
JahManRed
wank
+646|7039|IRELAND

Bernadictus wrote:

People, either stay in line, or I will close every single thread which contains one bit of immaturity, this off course at the expense of people that do stay inline.
What immaturity?
The only two people arguing in this thread are Cam and Lowing and they although chucking the odd insult are being remarkably restrained and are NOT flying off the handle.
IMO, its a good example of how sensitive topics can be debated maturely.

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