Poll

What should happen in Kosovo?

Kosovo becomes an independent nation28%28% - 12
Kosovo remains part of Serbia with no special powers30%30% - 13
Kosovo becomes an autonomous region of a federal Serbia23%23% - 10
Kosovo gets turned into a massive war theme park16%16% - 7
Total: 42
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6985
What should happen with Kosovo. Think about the implications and feasibility of your choice when posting/choosing and expound on the relative merits of your choice.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6519565.stm

A little history might help:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/map/yugoslavia/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo
superfly_cox
soup fly mod
+717|7212

Kosovo was a sham.  I'm not saying that what the Serbians did was right, but nobody in the western media chose to look at the Serb point of view.  You have Kosovo which is a historically Serbian territory where over the last 50 years leading up to the 1990's the Albanian population tripled and outnumbered the serbs 4:1.  Based on this the Albanian majority wanted sovereignty.

So what's the problem you say...

National Self Determination...Right?   Well if it worked that way then any ethnic group could seize territory through out-reproducing the locals?  What if Hispanics one day out number Non-Hispanics in California?  Will they revolt and become the sovereign nation of California because of self-determination?  Doesn't work that way...cause if it did then close all borders to the EU and US right away cause I don't wanna be out-reproduced into a minority.
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7240|Nårvei

Have to agree with Superfly on this one and a fresh similar case from the last century is the jews and the state of Israel.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6985

superfly_cox wrote:

Kosovo was a sham.  I'm not saying that what the Serbians did was right, but nobody in the western media chose to look at the Serb point of view.  You have Kosovo which is a historically Serbian territory where over the last 50 years leading up to the 1990's the Albanian population tripled and outnumbered the serbs 4:1.  Based on this the Albanian majority wanted sovereignty.

So what's the problem you say...

National Self Determination...Right?   Well if it worked that way then any ethnic group could seize territory through out-reproducing the locals?  What if Hispanics one day out number Non-Hispanics in California?  Will they revolt and become the sovereign nation of California because of self-determination?  Doesn't work that way...cause if it did then close all borders to the EU and US right away cause I don't wanna be out-reproduced into a minority.
Agreed. It's Serbia - no two ways about it. The majority of Kosovans are Albanian for a reason: they come from another country called Albania!

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-04 03:01:06)

superfly_cox
soup fly mod
+717|7212

Only 8 votes so far? 

HELLO folks!!!  More people have died in Kosovo over this conflict than have died in the last 20 years in Israel/Palestine.  And this is going on in the heart of europe but people could care less about the subject.
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6949|Πάϊ

superfly_cox wrote:

...
Listen to the man ^^^
ƒ³
JahManRed
wank
+646|7058|IRELAND

Its Serbia plain and simple. What ever happened in the past was the actions of a few stirring up religious bigotry to get their way. It shouldn't be used as a way to split away.
If the Albanians want their own state, then back to Albania with them.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7105|Canberra, AUS
A compromise is probably best. A semi-autonomous state within a state.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
iphtnax
Member
+7|7053
The biggest mistake the allies made was fighting on the side of Islamic terrorists against the Serbian people.

Kosovo should stay part of Serbia, and the Islamic terrorists it contains should be hunted down and killed, along with their supporters and enablers.

Islam doesn't have a future in Europe.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|7105|Canberra, AUS

iphtnax wrote:

The biggest mistake the allies made was fighting on the side of Islamic terrorists against the Serbian people.

Kosovo should stay part of Serbia, and the Islamic terrorists it contains should be hunted down and killed, along with their supporters and enablers.

Islam doesn't have a future in Europe.
The fuck? This is pretty close to being racist.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Longbow
Member
+163|7077|Odessa, Ukraine
NATO should be judged for war crimes done against Serbia and Slobo .
Kosovo should remain part of Serbia with no special powers .
iphtnax
Member
+7|7053

Spark wrote:

iphtnax wrote:

The biggest mistake the allies made was fighting on the side of Islamic terrorists against the Serbian people.

Kosovo should stay part of Serbia, and the Islamic terrorists it contains should be hunted down and killed, along with their supporters and enablers.

Islam doesn't have a future in Europe.
The fuck? This is pretty close to being racist.
Last time I checked, Islam wasn't a race.

Please explain the reasoning (if any) behind your statement.
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6720|Éire

iphtnax wrote:

The biggest mistake the allies made was fighting on the side of Islamic terrorists against the Serbian people.

Kosovo should stay part of Serbia, and the Islamic terrorists it contains should be hunted down and killed, along with their supporters and enablers.

Islam doesn't have a future in Europe.
Are you wanted in the Hague by the any chance?
iphtnax
Member
+7|7053

Braddock wrote:

iphtnax wrote:

The biggest mistake the allies made was fighting on the side of Islamic terrorists against the Serbian people.

Kosovo should stay part of Serbia, and the Islamic terrorists it contains should be hunted down and killed, along with their supporters and enablers.

Islam doesn't have a future in Europe.
Are you wanted in the Hague by the any chance?
Only by all the women there, cos I am damn sexy.
blademaster
I'm moving to Brazil
+2,075|7075
Fuck the damn Albanians they should all BURN in hell, HELL I say. Giving Kosovo away would be like handing over California to Mexico since there are more Mexican in California than Americans. Also same logic applies to giving Miami to Cuba or some other Latin American because most of the people speak Spanish. Its a retarded logic to go on.

Let me tell you about something that happened back in the dark days of World War II.

The German army, in 1941, stood astride of Europe, having defeated or compelled the surrender of every nation. From the borders of Russia to the Atlantic, from the English Channel and North Sea to the Mediterranean, the German war machine stood victorious.

It is no surprise then that when that machine rolled into Yugoslavia, the government surrendered. There was no chance to win a fight. Croatia became an enthusiastic fascist state and set up its own concentration camps to slaughter Jews and Serbs. Albania had joined the fascists and sent a division into Kosovo, where, at that time, Serbs were a huge majority. About 140,000 Serbs were killed.

The Bosnian Muslims, including their present leader, enthusiastically formed a Waffen SS Division.

So what did the Serbs do? Well, that's the magic. Within a few days after the Yugoslavian government surrendered, the Serb people rose up, overthrew that government and told Hitler's legions in effect, "No, hell, we don't surrender."

This is one of the noblest examples of human courage in history. Here was a people hopelessly outnumbered who nevertheless preferred to die than to surrender. More than a million did die, but they fought the Germans so fiercely that the German invasion of the Soviet Union was delayed. Hitler later blamed his defeat by the Russians on this delay.

It is shameful, in my opinion, that the United States, in its postwar decline, led by sleazy people, is attacking the Serbs, who fought with us as allies, to assist people who fought against us as Nazi allies.

And it is moronic that people in Washington supposed that the Serbs, who defied the German war machine, would collapse and tremble at the feet of someone whose ill-planned, poorly thought- out campaign has already led to a human disaster for the very people he said it was designed to save.

And make no mistake, this president, famous for his bad judgment, by rejecting any compromise is committing the United States to ground war in the Balkans. The idea that this man, who spoke of loathing the U.S. military and who cowardly avoided the draft, is now willing to put American troops into war against a former ally is really disgusting.

Clinton is going to discover, like Hitler, that he can occupy Serbia but that he cannot subdue the Serbian people.

The American people should wake up and decide how many of their sons and daughters they wish to sacrifice for the sake of Albania, once a fascist state, once the most Stalinist of the communist states and currently the most corrupt and incompetent of the former communist states.

When Clinton sends troops into Yugoslavia it will be pointless to talk about an exit strategy. There won't be one. There isn't even one for the American troops stuck in Bosnia. North Atlantic Treaty Organization officials have said they will be there at least another five years.

Americans should also remember that not one single European leader in 1914 intended to start a world war. They simply found themselves trapped in a chain of actions and reactions and ended up in a situation not a single one of them had intended or wanted.

Clinton, accustomed to cheap, small-state hustling, is clearly out of his depth. He is playing a dangerous game and isn't sane enough to realize just how dangerous it is. Beware of God's ironic sense of humor. The century started with a world war ignited in the Balkans.

    Now that NATO has been triumphant, trade in the Balkans can again flourish. The heroin trade, that is. It was tricky there for a while. While the Serbs were fighting grimly to save their country from disintegration, their opponents, the KLA, were fighting to save a $400 billion a year heroin business. By wiping out KLA strongholds in Kosovo. Slobodan Milosevic had inadvertently also wiped out the heroin supply network that links Central Asia to Europe.

    The KLA has always been the armed wing of this Albanian Mafia. Its humiliating defeat at the hands of the Serbs was rather embarrassing for the United States. It was bad enough that the KLA was so lousy at fighting. Despite their sophisticated weaponry they could not stop 40,000 Serb regular and paramilitary forces from throwing out, in a matter, of a few weeks, 800,000 Albanians. But at least they could pay for their weapons.

    Without the heroin money, however, they would no longer even be able to do that. NATO had to intervene. It could not allow such a lucrative business to slip through its fingers.

    The rise of the Albanian Mafia has been one of the most extraordinary phenomena of the last 10 years. For decades, the bizarre dictatorship of Enver Hoxha had isolated Albanians from the rest of the, world. The demise of Communism, however, had the effect of releasing the nation's pent-up criminal energy. Every kind of criminal scheme began to flourish. There were phony land deals, pyramid schemes and drug trafficking. Young women were transported to Italy to work as prostitutes. Children were sold to earn their keep as beggars in European cities.

    And, of course, there was the lucrative ferrying of illegal immigrants across the Adriatic. Privatized state enterprises became front companies for laundering money. Albania became the paradigm of the post-Communist state in which former apparatchiki team up with the local Mafia to loot the people of their assets. The Kosovar Albanians dominated much of this criminal activity. In part, this was because they were from sophisticated, cosmopolitan Yugoslavia that had allowed its citizens the freedom to travel. In part, also, because they were already thoroughly experienced in heroin trafficking from the days when the Balkan Route for narcotics went through Yugoslavia.

    The Balkan Route starts at the poppy fields of Pakistan and Central Asia, goes through Turkey and ends up in Western Europe. Yugoslavia's collapse into civil war in the early 1990s meant that heroin traders needed to find a more secure route. The heroin now went through Albania. Using the overland route drugs travel from Turkey to Greece and then to Macedonia. Albanians then transport the drugs by truck to the ports of Vlore and Durres [in Albania]. From there it is ferried by small craft either north toward the Dalmatian coast [Croatia] or across the Adriatic to Italy. Then it is taken to Germany and Switzerland.

    The vast Albania Diaspora ensures easy distribution. Albanians who crossed the border into Kosovo could get Yugoslav passports. This enabled them to travel anywhere in Europe, where they could demand political asylum as refugees from Milosevic.

    The Albanian Mafia is thought to control upwards of 70 percent of the illegal heroin market in Germany and Switzerland. More than 800 Albanian nationals are currently serving prison terms in Germany for heroin trafficking. The respected Jane's Intelligence Review recently reported: "Albania has become the crime capital of Europe. The most powerful groups in the country are organized criminals who use Albania to grow, process, and store a large percentage of the illegal drugs destined for Western Europe... Albanian criminal gangs are actively supporting the war in Kosovo."

    According to Germany's Federal Criminal Agency: "Ethnic Albanians are now the most prominent group in the distribution of heroin in Western consumer countries." The Albanian Mafia resembles the Sicilian Mafia in many ways. It is clan-based, driven by blood feuds that go on for generations, and has a definite geographic base from which it controls the Diaspora.

    In no time the Albanians displaced the Turks in the heroin business. Armenians and Georgians who supply the raw opium base prefer doing business with Albanians than with Turks. Moreover, Kosovar Albanians who dominate the Albanian Mafia used the proceeds of the heroin sales to buy arms for the anti-Serb guerrilla war in Kosovo. Here the Central Asians can be very helpful. Raiding armories and selling weapons is a multibillion-dollar enterprise in the countries of the former Soviet Union.

    In 1997 Interpol declared that Kosovo Albanians hold the largest share of the heroin market in Switzerland, in Austria, in Belgium, in Germany, in Hungary, in the Czech Republic, in Norway and in Sweden. Thanks in part to NATO, the Balkans will soon come to resemble places like Colombia, where drug traffickers are so powerful that they effectively control the state. Politicians, political parties, provincial governments and security authorities are in the pocket of drug lords. This is pretty much already the case in Albania and Macedonia. It will be like that in Kosovo soon. "The economy of Kosovo shall function in accordance with free market principles," as the Rambouillet accords put it.

    For the United States the establishment of a KLA state in Kosovo is a happy outcome. The KLA really does believe in the free market economy. What it understands by this is the opportunity to loot and pillage a people, so successfully accomplished in neighboring Albania. The securing of the Balkans Route means that the KLA will always be flush with money. With this it can take over the economy of Macedonia and Montenegro and also finance all kinds of prostitution and child slavery rackets in Europe. It will always be able to pay for its weapons should it decide to restart its war against Yugoslavia.

he magnitude of Kosovo reverberates across the centuries. It has survived 609 years and throughout the succeeding generations Kosovo has become the inspiration of an entire nation. And through its grandeur and its religious example it has influenced other nations to seek freedom. Kosovo permanently changed the face of Europe and altered history. Kosovo, 100 years before Columbus sailed for the New World, was a statement for religious freedom and the belief that no man had a right to rule another. Rather than to consent to become slaves to tyranny, the Serbs willingly gave their lives for their religious belief. Seldom in history have we witnessed such a commitment. The Serbs on the Kosovo Field not only paid with the staggering loss of 77,000 lives in one day of battle, but the Serbian nation suffered 500 years of Ottoman slavery as the consequence. Historians have never spoken of Kosovo as though it were an event in the past that will never happen again. Through the centuries, Serbian sacrifice and Kosovo have become synonymous.

The Serbian people have continually assumed that in every century they would again find it necessary to defend their rights to their land, self-determination, and freedom of worship. History in the Balkans continuously repeats itself! In 1690, more than 180,000 Serbs were forced from Kosovo and, again, an equal number were exiled in 1737. After the Congress of Berlin, in 1878, another 150,000 Serbs were expelled. This ongoing trend took on tragic proportions following the war in Crete between Turkey and Greece in 1897. Diplomatic efforts to stem the tide of atrocities against Serbs were useless, but documentation remains to testify to the crimes committed against the Serbian population. The Balkan war of 1912 was fought not only by Serbs but by Montenegrins, Bulgarians, and Greeks to liberate their people from centuries of uninterrupted Islamic aggression. The situation is little changed today.

To understand Kosovo, the American people need to compare the current Balkan crisis with its own American Civil War in which just 4% of the population lost their lives compared to Serbia who lost 52% of her adult male population in WWI and another 26% of her overall population in WWII. Readers of this forum need reminding that during the American Civil War it was the loyal Virginia citizens who refused to secede from the union and formed the state of West Virginia in 1863. Certainly Serbs deserve the same rights to remain in their union, a union which was internationally recognized as a nation in 1878 at the Congress of Berlin.

Not a single head of state, nor any American president, senator, or humanitarian group raised their voices as 200,000 Serbs were "ethnically cleansed" from Kosovo in the last 2 decades. People should be asking, why are the Serbs destined to suffer and be persecuted?

Last edited by blademaster (2007-04-04 05:46:23)

comet241
Member
+164|7195|Normal, IL

superfly_cox wrote:

Kosovo was a sham.  I'm not saying that what the Serbians did was right, but nobody in the western media chose to look at the Serb point of view.  You have Kosovo which is a historically Serbian territory where over the last 50 years leading up to the 1990's the Albanian population tripled and outnumbered the serbs 4:1.  Based on this the Albanian majority wanted sovereignty.

So what's the problem you say...

National Self Determination...Right?   Well if it worked that way then any ethnic group could seize territory through out-reproducing the locals?  What if Hispanics one day out number Non-Hispanics in California?  Will they revolt and become the sovereign nation of California because of self-determination?  Doesn't work that way...cause if it did then close all borders to the EU and US right away cause I don't wanna be out-reproduced into a minority.
shit, you beat me to my point. That's the same argument i used when the war first broke out a decade ago ( i mean with un intervention). Basically an ethnic majority can, if what the kosovoans are saying can be extrapolated, become an independent country simply because of the blood that runs through their veins?

I also used the hispanics in california example myself.

The serbs didn't do some cool things, but neither did the kosovoans (albanian population). A lot of people died needlessly, and sadly the UN sat by and watched a lot of it. The serbs are an very proud people, i should know, im half serb. So when you try and take away their land, they're gonna act out and their gonna do so in a way that people get hurt. Check out the cause of WWI if you need any further proof. on that note, i must say that almost every single major war in the 20th, and now 21st, century were caused by direct or indirect actions of WWI.... which was triggered by one angry serb..... I alway tell my friends my people are the cause of all the wars of the world.... after i explain that to them (in a much muchlonger version), they always have a good laugh.... and never cross me again...
iphtnax
Member
+7|7053
Yes, what it means is that if you rented one of the rooms in your house to a woman, who then had two children and then invited 10 relatives to live with her, under United Nations style logic, the police would be sent round to beat you up and the house would be given to her and her now sizeable family.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6985

iphtnax wrote:

Yes, what it means is that if you rented one of the rooms in your house to a woman, who then had two children and then invited 10 relatives to live with her, under United Nations style logic, the police would be sent round to beat you up and the house would be given to her and her now sizeable family.
I see kind of exactly like the Northern Ireland situation. I agree, Kosovo should be part of Serbia just like you. I'm having difficulty keeping up with your contradictory viewpoints as you dance from thread to thread though.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-04-04 07:36:42)

Ottomania
Troll has returned.
+62|6951|Istanbul-Turkey

iphtnax wrote:

The biggest mistake the allies made was fighting on the side of Islamic terrorists against the Serbian people.

Kosovo should stay part of Serbia, and the Islamic terrorists it contains should be hunted down and killed, along with their supporters and enablers.

Islam doesn't have a future in Europe.
are you joking or serious?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

Last edited by Ottomania (2007-04-04 13:09:12)

Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7240|Nårvei

blademaster wrote:

bla bla bla bla etc

Let me tell you about something that happened back in the dark days of World War II.

bla bla bla bla etc
Did you actually read this before you copied and pasted it ?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
superfly_cox
soup fly mod
+717|7212

In any case, US actions in kosovo are reprehensible...there was ethnic violence all around.  Even worse is European indifference to the issue.  If kosovo becomes a soverign nation then that will be a big black eye for europe.
Jet Blast
Banned
+15|6664
So was Clinton's war there useless?  Or did it cause more harm than good?
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7152|Eastern PA
Separate nation.

If anything, my choice is due to the Yugo. Yugoslavia and its successor states should be cursed for eternity for giving the world that piece of shit.
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|7152|Eastern PA

iphtnax wrote:

Last time I checked, Islam wasn't a race.

Please explain the reasoning (if any) behind your statement.
Extermination of a whole group of people due to their religion...this sounds familiar.
apollo_fi
The Flying Kalakukko.
+94|6961|The lunar module

Masques wrote:

iphtnax wrote:

Last time I checked, Islam wasn't a race.

Please explain the reasoning (if any) behind your statement.
Extermination of a whole group of people due to their religion...this sounds familiar.
QFE

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