Braddock
Agitator
+916|6535|Éire
"ON NEW YEAR'S EVE in 2003, I was seized at the border of Serbia and Macedonia by Macedonian police who mistakenly believed that I was traveling on a false German passport. I was detained incommunicado for more than three weeks. Then I was handed over to the American Central Intelligence Agency and was stripped, severely beaten, shackled, dressed in a diaper, injected with drugs, chained to the floor of a plane and flown to Afghanistan, where I was imprisoned in a foul dungeon for more than four months.

Long after the American government realized that I was an entirely innocent man, I was blindfolded, put back on a plane, flown to Europe and left on a hilltop in Albania — without any explanation or apology for the nightmare that I had endured.

My story is well known. It has been described in literally hundreds of newspaper articles and television news programs — many of them relying on sources within the U.S. government. It has been the subject of numerous investigations and reports by intergovernmental bodies, including the European Parliament. Most recently, prosecutors in my own country of Germany are pursuing indictments against 13 CIA agents and contractors for their role in my kidnapping, abuse and detention. Although I never could have imagined it, and certainly never wished it, I have become the public face of the CIA's "extraordinary rendition" program.

Why, then, does the American government insist that my ordeal is a state secret? This is something beyond my comprehension. In December 2005, with the help of the American Civil Liberties Union, I sued former CIA Director George Tenet along with other CIA agents and contractors for their roles in my kidnapping, mistreatment and arbitrary detention. Above all, what I want from the lawsuit is a public acknowledgment from the U.S. government that I was innocent, a mistaken victim of its rendition program, and an apology for what I was forced to endure. Without this vindication, it has been impossible for me to return to a normal life.

The U.S. government does not deny that I was wrongfully kidnapped. Instead, it has argued in court that my case must be dismissed because any litigation of my claims will expose state secrets and jeopardize American security, even though President Bush has told the world about the CIA's detention program, and even though my allegations have been corroborated by eyewitnesses and other evidence. To my amazement and dismay, last May, a federal district court judge agreed with the government and threw out my case. And then Friday, the U.S. 4th Circuit Court of Appeals upheld that decision. It seems that the only place in the world where my case cannot be discussed is in a U.S. courtroom.

I did not bring this lawsuit to harm America. I brought the lawsuit because I want to know why America harmed me. I don't understand why the strongest nation on Earth believes that acknowledging a mistake will threaten its security. Isn't it more likely that showing the world that America cannot give justice to an innocent victim of its anti-terror policies will cause harm to America's image and security around the world?



IN NOVEMBER, I traveled to America for the first time to hear my lawyers argue my case before the appeals court in Richmond, Va. and to meet with members of Congress and their staff on Capitol Hill. (It's obvious that the U.S. government does not consider me a security threat, or I would not have been allowed to enter the country, much less be in the same room with federal judges and members of Congress.)

Although I did not understand all of the arguments made by the lawyers, I was impressed by the dignity of the proceedings and by the respect for the rule of law that I have always associated with America. I'm deeply disappointed to find that this same legal system denies me the chance to fully present my case.

If I were being treated fairly by the American legal system, perhaps we would not have reached the point where German prosecutors are bringing criminal charges against American citizens.

During my visit in November, many Americans offered me their personal apologies for the brutality that had been perpetrated against me in their name. I saw in their faces the true America, an America that is not held captive by fear of unknown enemies and that understands the strength and power of justice. That is the America that, I hope, one day will see me as a human being — not a state secret."

Taken from: http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio … ;cset=true
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6774|Global Command
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Fen321
Member
+54|6742|Singularity

ATG wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

This is the reason for this whole debacle by the way:

http://www.china.org.cn/english/interna … 154451.htm

Iranian soldiers kidnapped on Iranian soil.
So they Kidnap UK soldiers?

The fact of the matter is this kind of action is the last thing Iran needs right before Ah'j speaks to the UN. They are already calling them a rogue division of the Iranian Navy. If they want to gain support for their Nuclear program they need to appear as if they are not hostile.

Also, please do not ever link us to a Chinese website again..lol. Didn't they just ban all internet cafe's?
i linked to a similar story on page three;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w … 530527.ece


Either way, the Iranians are idiots.
The only acceptable response to what it is allegedly America did would be for the Iranians to abduct Americans.

They know we are on a much more aggressive footing that the Brits, which makes them cowardly as well as stupid.
Hi -- my friend called reason decided to let me in on a little secret -- so i said hey why not share it.

When someone enters your territorial waters with WEAPONS -- that go bang bang -- you have the right to stop them search them and if you find reason enough DETAIN THEM. This is by no means the same as going out of your way and ABDUCTING someone. Detainment is not the same as ABDUCTION here.

No where in the article does it say that the detainment was in response to anything outside of the incursion into their "water."
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6774|Global Command

Fen321 wrote:

ATG wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


So they Kidnap UK soldiers?

The fact of the matter is this kind of action is the last thing Iran needs right before Ah'j speaks to the UN. They are already calling them a rogue division of the Iranian Navy. If they want to gain support for their Nuclear program they need to appear as if they are not hostile.

Also, please do not ever link us to a Chinese website again..lol. Didn't they just ban all internet cafe's?
i linked to a similar story on page three;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w … 530527.ece


Either way, the Iranians are idiots.
The only acceptable response to what it is allegedly America did would be for the Iranians to abduct Americans.

They know we are on a much more aggressive footing that the Brits, which makes them cowardly as well as stupid.
Hi -- my friend called reason decided to let me in on a little secret -- so i said hey why not share it.

When someone enters your territorial waters with WEAPONS -- that go bang bang -- you have the right to stop them search them and if you find reason enough DETAIN THEM. This is by no means the same as going out of your way and ABDUCTING someone. Detainment is not the same as ABDUCTION here.

No where in the article does it say that the detainment was in response to anything outside of the incursion into their "water."
The only people saying the Brits were in Iranians waters is the Iranians.
Wheres that reason you mentioned?
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6535|Éire

ATG wrote:

Page Not Found


Sorry, the page you requested could not be found.

    * If you are trying to reach a page from a bookmark, the page URL may have changed. Please choose a section from the navigation at the top of this page.

    * If you are looking for an older news story, it may no longer be here. Free archives of stories are maintained for one week on latimes.com. To search for a story published in the past week, use the search box at the top of the home page.

    * If the story is more than one week old, you should be able to find it in the LATimes archive. Searching is free, but there is a fee for downloading full text of found articles.


If you still have trouble finding what you need, please go to our customer service page.
It was still working for me as it was still in my cache. Apologies, I have pasted it above.

Last edited by Braddock (2007-03-24 10:57:14)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6800

ATG wrote:

The only people saying the Brits were in Iranians waters is the Iranians.
Wheres that reason you mentioned?
ATG both you and I know that it is highly probable that UK and US troops are operating behind Iranian lines - they've practically boasted about it. Israel has certainly opened its mouth in the past about their agitators inside Iran.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-03-24 10:57:24)

Fen321
Member
+54|6742|Singularity

ATG wrote:

Fen321 wrote:

ATG wrote:


i linked to a similar story on page three;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w … 530527.ece


Either way, the Iranians are idiots.
The only acceptable response to what it is allegedly America did would be for the Iranians to abduct Americans.

They know we are on a much more aggressive footing that the Brits, which makes them cowardly as well as stupid.
Hi -- my friend called reason decided to let me in on a little secret -- so i said hey why not share it.

When someone enters your territorial waters with WEAPONS -- that go bang bang -- you have the right to stop them search them and if you find reason enough DETAIN THEM. This is by no means the same as going out of your way and ABDUCTING someone. Detainment is not the same as ABDUCTION here.

No where in the article does it say that the detainment was in response to anything outside of the incursion into their "water."
The only people saying the Brits were in Iranians waters is the Iranians.
Wheres that reason you mentioned?
My reason that i mentioned also knows the Brits confessed. So i suppose right there.
ShellShock.PwN
Member
+31|7032|Barrie Ontario
If you ask an iranian if they were in there waters of course they will say yes
if you ask a brit if they were in iranian watersthey will say no.

its the blame game.

If they were indeed in iranian waters then they should exchange 15 for 15 in prisoners.

if they werent in iranian waters send in SAS and once there out, NUKE EM!

The word iranian was said: 5 times :S

if the british have admitted to being behind the lines disregard my whole post

Last edited by ShellShock.PwN (2007-03-24 11:07:15)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6774|Global Command

Fen321 wrote:

My reason that i mentioned also knows the Brits confessed. So i suppose right there.
Whatever they say while being held is meaningless.

CameronPoe wrote:

ATG wrote:

The only people saying the Brits were in Iranians waters is the Iranians.
Wheres that reason you mentioned?
ATG both you and I know that it is highly probable that UK and US troops are operating behind Iranian lines - they've practically boasted about it. Israel has certainly opened its mouth in the past about their agitators inside Iran.
If they captured Americans or brits INSIDE Iran I wouldn't be so sure about myself.
That's where they fucked up.
I'm sure the Brits knew EXACTLY where they were via gps.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6935|Tampa Bay Florida

usmarine2007 wrote:

Braddock wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:


If I didn't know any better, I would say you are justifying this event.
So by pointing out the motivation and reasoning behind an act you are automatically justifying it? Why must you be so insistent on never questioning things thoroughly usmarine2007? It's seems as though you find it unpatriotic or something (IMO).
He does not know the reason, unless he is really in the Iran government.
The Iranian government does not want war with the UK or the US.  If you honestly believe they are that dumb, then you are even more dumb than them.
samfink
Member
+31|6800
Also, the sailors were doing a legitimate inspection of a Japanese vessel thought ot be smuggling cars inside IRAQI waters. they were not a) engaged in hostile acts against any Iranian vessel or b) inside Iranian waters. indeed, if they were in Iranian waters, then Iran would be perfectly justified in detaining said sailors. but in foreign waters or on the high seas, you do NOT detain any sailors of another nation. it is an act of war. in which case, Iran better hand over the sailors, and if they have been tortured, then may God/Allah help them, as they would need it.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6612|Columbus, Ohio

Spearhead wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Braddock wrote:


So by pointing out the motivation and reasoning behind an act you are automatically justifying it? Why must you be so insistent on never questioning things thoroughly usmarine2007? It's seems as though you find it unpatriotic or something (IMO).
He does not know the reason, unless he is really in the Iran government.
The Iranian government does not want war with the UK or the US.  If you honestly believe they are that dumb, then you are even more dumb than them.
When did I say that?  Keep your words in your own mouth.
Fen321
Member
+54|6742|Singularity
Guys seriously -- this debate  = POINT LESS

The pivotal point here is location of detainment -- no one knows so lets all politely stop assuming (myself included) on who is right and wrong.
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6639|The Gem Saloon

CameronPoe wrote:

ATG wrote:

The only people saying the Brits were in Iranians waters is the Iranians.
Wheres that reason you mentioned?
ATG both you and I know that it is highly probable that UK and US troops are operating behind Iranian lines - they've practically boasted about it. Israel has certainly opened its mouth in the past about their agitators inside Iran.
i would agree with that statement. i have heard/seen a few times about boots on the ground already in the form of SF.
Ganko_06
Laughter with an S
+167|6889|Camoran's Paradise
I'm going to refer to my last post:
If the Brits were in Iraqi waters, Iran is provicating war.
If the Brits were is Iranian waters, Iran has a stupid policy.  They should have simply escorted them to Iraqi waters like every other navy in the world would do.  Either way, Iran is nuts.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6845|132 and Bush

Fen321 wrote:

ATG wrote:

Fen321 wrote:

Hi -- my friend called reason decided to let me in on a little secret -- so i said hey why not share it.

When someone enters your territorial waters with WEAPONS -- that go bang bang -- you have the right to stop them search them and if you find reason enough DETAIN THEM. This is by no means the same as going out of your way and ABDUCTING someone. Detainment is not the same as ABDUCTION here.

No where in the article does it say that the detainment was in response to anything outside of the incursion into their "water."
The only people saying the Brits were in Iranians waters is the Iranians.
Wheres that reason you mentioned?
My reason that i mentioned also knows the Brits confessed. So i suppose right there.
Your friend reason would also tell you that if you were kidnapped you would probably say anything to help you return home safely. This is not to say they weren't in Iranian waters, but it is not unreasonable to think either way right now. I have read places where the waters in question were given up by Iran in a 1975 treaty. I have not found the specifics to verify this though. Let's try to keep the speculation down until we have more info. To be honest I hope it was a mistake on the Brits part. We need less escalation right now.

Edit: Fen321 I see you came to that agreement in a post after that. Good man

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-03-24 14:37:06)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6650|North Carolina

CameronPoe wrote:

ATG wrote:

The only people saying the Brits were in Iranians waters is the Iranians.
Wheres that reason you mentioned?
ATG both you and I know that it is highly probable that UK and US troops are operating behind Iranian lines - they've practically boasted about it. Israel has certainly opened its mouth in the past about their agitators inside Iran.
We also know that Iran has been aiding the insurgency in Iraq.  I'd say that makes us even.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6612|Columbus, Ohio

Braddock wrote:

For all the Americans here criticising the unlawful detainment of people from other countries:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio … ;cset=true

Credit to KEN_JENNINGS for originally posting this story.
You seem to overlook one minor detail.  He was thought to be a terrorist.  I doubt Iran thought 15 British Sailors and Marines were terrorists.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6800

usmarine2007 wrote:

Braddock wrote:

For all the Americans here criticising the unlawful detainment of people from other countries:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio … ;cset=true

Credit to KEN_JENNINGS for originally posting this story.
You seem to overlook one minor detail.  He was thought to be a terrorist.  I doubt Iran thought 15 British Sailors and Marines were terrorists.
Why wouldn't they? They certainly wouldn't have seen them as friendlies - their government is getting sanctions placed on them at the UN for Christ's sake!
psH
Banned
+217|6628|Sydney

killswitch_uk wrote:

Nice one Iran, Lets see how long it takes for you to get invaded......
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6612|Columbus, Ohio

CameronPoe wrote:

their government is getting sanctions placed on them at the UN for Christ's sake!
And why is that?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6800

usmarine2007 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

their government is getting sanctions placed on them at the UN for Christ's sake!
And why is that?
Because they're probably developing nuclear weapons to deter Israel/USA from attacking them and making them the dominant power, above Saudi Arabia, in their own neighbourhood (> 10,000 miles away from USA). Y'know: kinda like how the members of the security council keep stockpiles of nuclear weapons.

But remember: the last time people acted on a probability thousands of people died - US, Brits, Poles, Italians, Iraqis, etc. - based on intelligence that turned out to be complete rubbish, as many believed before the ill-thought-through action was undertaken....

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-03-24 16:41:17)

samfink
Member
+31|6800
ok, latest information is that the boats were in iraqi waters, verified by GPS. also, note every time this happens, the equipment the brittish sailors and marines have on them is not returned? so iran effetcievbyl steals the boats,plus any weapons the soldiers had, body armour, radios 9 convieniantly tuned to frequencies used by brittish and american forces. and they have potentialyl supplied insurgents. maybe that si why the insurgents are able to target american patrols wiht unerring accurayc.
BVC
Member
+325|6940
If the UK soldiers were in Iranian waters then they have no right to complain.

Perhaps the US and Iran could reach some sort of agreement whereby Iraqi/coalition and Iranian forces can pursue threats into the other's territory a little?  Better comms between the two, maybe?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6845|132 and Bush

samfink wrote:

ok, latest information is that the boats were in iraqi waters, verified by GPS. also, note every time this happens, the equipment the brittish sailors and marines have on them is not returned? so iran effetcievbyl steals the boats,plus any weapons the soldiers had, body armour, radios 9 convieniantly tuned to frequencies used by brittish and american forces. and they have potentialyl supplied insurgents. maybe that si why the insurgents are able to target american patrols wiht unerring accurayc.
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Xbone Stormsurgezz

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