this is my point, these people can not even honor themselves as individuals, how do expect anything MORE from them as team players.Turquoise wrote:
How would it be a dishonor to the military, if they were to succeed?lowing wrote:
Only problem is, I doubt, after a successful NON-attempt at personal responsibility in life, they will actually succeed in anything, including being a successful soldier. Why dishonor the miltary by suggesting such action?Turquoise wrote:
The unsuccessful and lazy will no longer be stuck at the bottom of society if we can enlist them. Besides, the worst that can happen with this plan is that they'll just die while on the job, so to speak.
By following this plan, we'll stop punishing our nobility.
In all seriousness, sometimes the training in the military can turn a loser into a respectful warrior. Everybody has to start somewhere.
okay, I will bow to that. I am all for opportunity as long as they join on their own free will, and not forced in. This would at least show me that they want a chance to change their lives.Turquoise wrote:
In all seriousness, sometimes the training in the military can turn a loser into a respectful warrior. Everybody has to start somewhere.
I have a feeling that we won't have another draft anytime soon. Instead, it will probably get to the point that the military will be one of the few forms of government assistance available. The "starve the government" policies of many recent administrations have already set things headed in this direction. One of the few brighter sides to this is that the military may serve in exactly the way that you and others have expressed interest in.
Obviously, you can't sit on your ass when you join the military. Soldiers do far more than earn their keep (and I'd argue they don't get paid enough). So, if nothing else, a lot of poor people enlisting will likely transform in many ways after serving. Of course, there are some people who fail at everything though....
Obviously, you can't sit on your ass when you join the military. Soldiers do far more than earn their keep (and I'd argue they don't get paid enough). So, if nothing else, a lot of poor people enlisting will likely transform in many ways after serving. Of course, there are some people who fail at everything though....
I buy this 100% although I do not look at the military as govt. assistance at all. It is a great place to learn a trade in real time, get education benifits, and yes contribute to society. I do not look at it as govt. assistance, rather assisting your govt. or country I am proud to have served, and am even more proud of our service people who are active currently in this trying era.Turquoise wrote:
I have a feeling that we won't have another draft anytime soon. Instead, it will probably get to the point that the military will be one of the few forms of government assistance available. The "starve the government" policies of many recent administrations have already set things headed in this direction. One of the few brighter sides to this is that the military may serve in exactly the way that you and others have expressed interest in.
Obviously, you can't sit on your ass when you join the military. Soldiers do far more than earn their keep (and I'd argue they don't get paid enough). So, if nothing else, a lot of poor people enlisting will likely transform in many ways after serving. Of course, there are some people who fail at everything though....
Agreed... but there is just one catch....
It costs more money to train each soldier than it does to support each person on welfare.
While a soldier is far more productive than someone unemployed, the cost to provide them the necessary skills and equipment is far higher. So, inevitably, it makes you wonder if taxes would actually rise under this arrangement.
It costs more money to train each soldier than it does to support each person on welfare.
While a soldier is far more productive than someone unemployed, the cost to provide them the necessary skills and equipment is far higher. So, inevitably, it makes you wonder if taxes would actually rise under this arrangement.
read the Fair Tax book by John Linder and Neal Boortz.
It makes a lot of sense. Don't want to pay taxes, don't spend money.
It makes a lot of sense. Don't want to pay taxes, don't spend money.
I'm all in favor of the government spending less, but we have to cut spending dramatically before committing to something like the Fair Tax.DSRTurtle wrote:
read the Fair Tax book by John Linder and Neal Boortz.
It makes a lot of sense. Don't want to pay taxes, don't spend money.
Then they just tax you on your savings.DSRTurtle wrote:
Don't want to pay taxes, don't spend money.
I do not agree. Just like in all aspects of employee and employer relationships, training costs money. It is an investment into your employee with the expectation of productivity that will make you MORE money or in the case of the military, defend your country. Money WASTED on welfare produces nothing.Turquoise wrote:
Agreed... but there is just one catch....
It costs more money to train each soldier than it does to support each person on welfare.
While a soldier is far more productive than someone unemployed, the cost to provide them the necessary skills and equipment is far higher. So, inevitably, it makes you wonder if taxes would actually rise under this arrangement.
Let me also add that a person trained in the military has the skills to enter the civilian work force and is then a tax payer. They contribute, welfare recipients do not.
Last edited by lowing (2007-03-19 20:11:36)
Your taking my statement out of context. It was continuing the statement about the Fair Tax Plan.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Then they just tax you on your savings.DSRTurtle wrote:
Don't want to pay taxes, don't spend money.
Last edited by DSRTurtle (2007-03-19 20:17:35)
True... so how do we start this arrangement?...lowing wrote:
I do not agree. Just like in all aspects of employee and employer relationships, training costs money. It is an investment into your employee with the expectation of productivity that will make you MORE money or in the case of the military, defend your country. Money WASTED on welfare produces nothing.Turquoise wrote:
Agreed... but there is just one catch....
It costs more money to train each soldier than it does to support each person on welfare.
While a soldier is far more productive than someone unemployed, the cost to provide them the necessary skills and equipment is far higher. So, inevitably, it makes you wonder if taxes would actually rise under this arrangement.
Let me also add that a person trained in the military has the skills to enter the civilian work force and is then a tax payer. They contribute, welfare recipients do not.
Ummm, all people willing or wanting to contribute to society can do so by serving their country. Then they will recognize their own potential in the civilian work force and thus contribute to society. Those that are not willing or wanting t odo so, can fucking starve to death. Hows that?Turquoise wrote:
True... so how do we start this arrangement?...lowing wrote:
I do not agree. Just like in all aspects of employee and employer relationships, training costs money. It is an investment into your employee with the expectation of productivity that will make you MORE money or in the case of the military, defend your country. Money WASTED on welfare produces nothing.Turquoise wrote:
Agreed... but there is just one catch....
It costs more money to train each soldier than it does to support each person on welfare.
While a soldier is far more productive than someone unemployed, the cost to provide them the necessary skills and equipment is far higher. So, inevitably, it makes you wonder if taxes would actually rise under this arrangement.
Let me also add that a person trained in the military has the skills to enter the civilian work force and is then a tax payer. They contribute, welfare recipients do not.
Last edited by lowing (2007-03-19 20:24:09)
I wasn't making a serious point.DSRTurtle wrote:
Your taking my statement out of context. It was continuing the statement about the Fair Tax Plan.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Then they just tax you on your savings.DSRTurtle wrote:
Don't want to pay taxes, don't spend money.
We'll still need programs for the handicapped and elderly. We'll also need something for people in between jobs (limited term help).lowing wrote:
Ummm, all people willing or wanting to contribute to society can do so by serving their country. Then they will recognize their own potential in the civilian work force and thus contribute to society. Those that are not willing or wanting t odo so, can fucking starve to death. Hows that?Turquoise wrote:
True... so how do we start this arrangement?...lowing wrote:
I do not agree. Just like in all aspects of employee and employer relationships, training costs money. It is an investment into your employee with the expectation of productivity that will make you MORE money or in the case of the military, defend your country. Money WASTED on welfare produces nothing.
Let me also add that a person trained in the military has the skills to enter the civilian work force and is then a tax payer. They contribute, welfare recipients do not.
I have no problem with the funding of such worth while endevours. How about the money we save by kicking the leeches and tics to the curb? Could we use that?Turquoise wrote:
We'll still need programs for the handicapped and elderly. We'll also need something for people in between jobs (limited term help).lowing wrote:
Ummm, all people willing or wanting to contribute to society can do so by serving their country. Then they will recognize their own potential in the civilian work force and thus contribute to society. Those that are not willing or wanting t odo so, can fucking starve to death. Hows that?Turquoise wrote:
True... so how do we start this arrangement?...
Last edited by lowing (2007-03-19 20:31:18)
I guess that works, but hopefully crime won't rise too much....lowing wrote:
I have no problem with the funding of such worth while endevours. How about the money we save by kicking the leeches and tics to the curb? Could we use that?Turquoise wrote:
We'll still need programs for the handicapped and elderly. We'll also need something for people in between jobs (limited term help).lowing wrote:
Ummm, all people willing or wanting to contribute to society can do so by serving their country. Then they will recognize their own potential in the civilian work force and thus contribute to society. Those that are not willing or wanting t odo so, can fucking starve to death. Hows that?
No problem there either, we enforce existing laws, execute those whose appeals have run out expeditiously and make sure prison is the last place on earth you want to be. Oh and "Kill all the lawyers". <-----William Shakespeare wasn't it??Turquoise wrote:
I guess that works, but hopefully crime won't rise too much....lowing wrote:
I have no problem with the funding of such worth while endevours. How about the money we save by kicking the leeches and tics to the curb? Could we use that?Turquoise wrote:
We'll still need programs for the handicapped and elderly. We'll also need something for people in between jobs (limited term help).
As the man said, try reading the book first. Somebody will always be spending money. But if you, personally, do not want to pay taxes, then save your money. Or buy used.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Then they just tax you on your savings.DSRTurtle wrote:
Don't want to pay taxes, don't spend money.
Really? Why? I suppose I should mention that I am a social darwinist. If you cannot or will not work to support yourself, for any reason, you should be supported by your family, church, or privately run charity. Nowhere should the government enter in to it.Turquoise wrote:
We'll still need programs for the handicapped and elderly. We'll also need something for people in between jobs (limited term help).
If I want to support the poor and neglected, then I will give to a charity. I do not take kindly to the feds coming up, telling me it is my social responsibility, take MY money, then give it to someone who I may or may not feel is in any way justified in receiving it. But the government takes my choice away from me.
If I break your legs and burn your eyes out, I can assure you that you will no longer support social darwinism.
Try reading the whole post, yes they spend the same income tax, but the poor have to spend ALL that money and hence pay more taxes on the stuff they buy, the rich don't spend all their money, hence they spend less money on tax.ph4s3 wrote:
Well, if he can't even say what he means then he shouldn't be arguing anyway. He specifically said, "If you charged a flat rate tax on everyone, then 10 people on $15,000 a year will between them spend more money on tax than one person on $150, 000." That's idiotic at best, purposefully dishonest at worst.lowing wrote:
He is no doubt, trying to argue that the rich do not pay the taxes you cite, because of tax shelters and loop holes, that are not apparently available to the poor.
The thing about a flat tax is that it would not have loopholes. Period. The only fair tax is one that has no loopholes or other special rules. If you make $X, you pay the same percentage as if you made $Z. Remove the incentive to cheat by making it a reasonable percentage and change the law to remove the possibility of cheating (no loopholes = no cheaters).
A flat tax income tax system with any for of sales tax, tax on milk, beer, tobbacco, lottery tickets, VAT etc. will result in the poor spending a HIGHER percentage of their earnings on tax than the rich because they spend a higher percentage of their earnings.
Hence a flat tax rate is utterly stupid.
Plus a flat tax rate would utterly screw many disabled people.
Last edited by PureFodder (2007-03-20 02:26:34)
The US could also try a major overhaul of the military budget. That'd save a few hundred million.lowing wrote:
I have no problem with the funding of such worth while endevours. How about the money we save by kicking the leeches and tics to the curb? Could we use that?Turquoise wrote:
We'll still need programs for the handicapped and elderly. We'll also need something for people in between jobs (limited term help).lowing wrote:
Ummm, all people willing or wanting to contribute to society can do so by serving their country. Then they will recognize their own potential in the civilian work force and thus contribute to society. Those that are not willing or wanting t odo so, can fucking starve to death. Hows that?
Seriously, your tax dollars are still being used by the military to test if psychic powers work. If they'd like to give me several million dollars for the next few years I'm sure I could sum up the entire field of research in a single word report.
Irish tax rates:
Up to €21,120 earned: no tax
Between €21,120 & €34,000 earned: 20%
Above €34,000 earned: 41%
All manner of tax reliefs are also availabe - rent relief, medical & dental reliefs, first time homebuyers relief, etc.
I think it works OK - I wouldn't mind paying more tax but the budget surplus at the moment is absolutely humungous. I like what the government have done with it so far but healthcare could definitely do with some improvement.
Up to €21,120 earned: no tax
Between €21,120 & €34,000 earned: 20%
Above €34,000 earned: 41%
All manner of tax reliefs are also availabe - rent relief, medical & dental reliefs, first time homebuyers relief, etc.
I think it works OK - I wouldn't mind paying more tax but the budget surplus at the moment is absolutely humungous. I like what the government have done with it so far but healthcare could definitely do with some improvement.
I pay nearly 50% income tax. It fucks me off to say the least. Money is best left in the pocket of the consumer where they can choose where best to spend it. Tax, unfortunately, is a necessity, but 50% just because I'm clever...FFS!?