I agree with you in almost every word, but I still think Israel has oppressed Palestinians for so much time, they should make the first step. It's a matter of showing you want to end this war, and Israel ain't doing that. Palestine is a weak state???? with no power at all. Ok, they have some mortars, wow, top notch weapons, lol. Both sides are fuckups. But Israel is a country and Palestine is a controlled land, just a joke, so the country should move first. Both sides have extremists who don't want this war to end, so fuck those extremists and then they'll be able to go to the table.Pug wrote:
Ok, so as long as a side is weak then they can do no wrong?sergeriver wrote:
I know you talk about both sides, but Israel has a greater responsibility, since it's the powerful one in this story, and the Palestinians are living like shit coz of Israel's oppression. How would you feel if you were a Palestinian?
The bottom line is that no one is forcing a resolution to this problem, including those involved. It's useless to pick sides. I feel sorry for both the Israelis and the Palestians, but the bottom line is they are a bunch of fuckups.
I once read somewhere on this forum that "all the Palestians have are rocks" and the Israelis have tanks. Well, it looks like they have some mortars.
In this case, the world begins to loosen the sanctions on Palestine. The world begins to care a little more about them. So the new government is essentially the same, and Israel blasts out rhetoric.
Result: mortars.
How about not fucking shooting mortars and bring the fucking Israelis to the table to talk about growing old together?
Can't do that? Too much history? Well then fuck them both.
Give me a break Serge.
Did Israel not offer the first olive branch by pulling out of Gaza and the West Bank? Only to be rocketed in response?? Or do I have this wrong?sergeriver wrote:
I agree with you in almost every word, but I still think Israel has oppressed Palestinians for so much time, they should make the first step. It's a matter of showing you want to end this war, and Israel ain't doing that. Palestine is a weak state???? with no power at all. Ok, they have some mortars, wow, top notch weapons, lol. Both sides are fuckups. But Israel is a country and Palestine is a controlled land, just a joke, so the country should move first. Both sides have extremists who don't want this war to end, so fuck those extremists and then they'll be able to go to the table.Pug wrote:
Ok, so as long as a side is weak then they can do no wrong?sergeriver wrote:
I know you talk about both sides, but Israel has a greater responsibility, since it's the powerful one in this story, and the Palestinians are living like shit coz of Israel's oppression. How would you feel if you were a Palestinian?
The bottom line is that no one is forcing a resolution to this problem, including those involved. It's useless to pick sides. I feel sorry for both the Israelis and the Palestians, but the bottom line is they are a bunch of fuckups.
I once read somewhere on this forum that "all the Palestians have are rocks" and the Israelis have tanks. Well, it looks like they have some mortars.
In this case, the world begins to loosen the sanctions on Palestine. The world begins to care a little more about them. So the new government is essentially the same, and Israel blasts out rhetoric.
Result: mortars.
How about not fucking shooting mortars and bring the fucking Israelis to the table to talk about growing old together?
Can't do that? Too much history? Well then fuck them both.
Give me a break Serge.
Last edited by lowing (2007-03-19 18:58:29)
Nope, sounds correct.
LOL, damn I hate being right all the time, it keeps costing me liberal friends, that block me on here.ATG wrote:
Nope, sounds correct.
A couple thoughts here:sergeriver wrote:
I agree with you in almost every word, but I still think Israel has oppressed Palestinians for so much time, they should make the first step. It's a matter of showing you want to end this war, and Israel ain't doing that. Palestine is a weak state???? with no power at all. Ok, they have some mortars, wow, top notch weapons, lol. Both sides are fuckups. But Israel is a country and Palestine is a controlled land, just a joke, so the country should move first. Both sides have extremists who don't want this war to end, so fuck those extremists and then they'll be able to go to the table.
1) Hamas = hates Israel, will never make peace with Israel & Israel will never make peace with them. So forgive me but, bullshit...this is NOT a one-sided event that is all Israel's fault. It's the Palestians deciding they wish to continue to be hostile.
2) So you think a couple of mortars, a car bomb or two, or a suicide bombing is forcing Israel to the negotiation table? Both sides believe they are protecting themselves - but in this case it is complete bullshit. All it proves is that either the Hamas condone the action or have no control over their own people. Exactly the reason why Israel takes its harsh stance.
3) It's the extremists' fault? Lebanon can't control its own people partially because the Hamas aren't actively doing anything to prevent it, and are supporting it at some level. So Israeli overreaction is part of the bargain. So I ask you this - who will prevent the extremists from attacking? My answer is Israel - which sucks because its the last resort.
4) The first step should be taken by Israel? Why? There is history of Israel trying with loose guarantees of discontinuing these types of actions, which resulted in more frequent attacks. What concession are you looking for, when I see you bring up one-tenth of the magnitude of what a Palestian is thinking "but the past...what can make up for the past"?
5) "Ok they have some mortars, wow, top notch weapons". I saw on this forum once where Israel was being criticized for shooting rubber bullets at kids throwing rocks at tanks. Well, Israel threw some words around and the shelling began. There's a parallel there if you can see it. Does it matter how someone is killed?
I'm really tired of this one-sided crap. Both are dirty. Both want to kill each other. No concessions will ever make up for the past.
But there is a solution.
History has proven that the victor traditionally can force its will over the other (Japan, Germany & the Confederacy). Guerilla wars rarely outright win. A conflict like this won't end until the weaker side makes the concession, not the other way around. And that sucks, but it's the only way that will ease tensions in the region. And I think the concession can be bought by Israeli reparations...so the ball is in the Palestinians' court - can they prevent the actions of the few within their society from assisting in their society's destruction?
On the other hand the Israeli's aren't helping matters either, but why would you expect them to act differently when every time something positive happens in the region results in a greater influx of problems? The Palestinian cause is a lost cause, the sooner they proactively pursue peace by making a token gesture - stop attaking Israel - the better. Otherwise Israel is going to continue to be Israel.
pffttt nuke'um all let them glow shot them in the dark
thats my Middle East solution
thats my Middle East solution
Last edited by madmax (2007-03-20 00:09:46)
When did that happen? Israel never left the OT. They control them, and they even allow settlements. That isn't pulling out. You have this wrong.lowing wrote:
Did Israel not offer the first olive branch by pulling out of Gaza and the West Bank? Only to be rocketed in response?? Or do I have this wrong?sergeriver wrote:
I agree with you in almost every word, but I still think Israel has oppressed Palestinians for so much time, they should make the first step. It's a matter of showing you want to end this war, and Israel ain't doing that. Palestine is a weak state???? with no power at all. Ok, they have some mortars, wow, top notch weapons, lol. Both sides are fuckups. But Israel is a country and Palestine is a controlled land, just a joke, so the country should move first. Both sides have extremists who don't want this war to end, so fuck those extremists and then they'll be able to go to the table.Pug wrote:
Ok, so as long as a side is weak then they can do no wrong?
The bottom line is that no one is forcing a resolution to this problem, including those involved. It's useless to pick sides. I feel sorry for both the Israelis and the Palestians, but the bottom line is they are a bunch of fuckups.
I once read somewhere on this forum that "all the Palestians have are rocks" and the Israelis have tanks. Well, it looks like they have some mortars.
In this case, the world begins to loosen the sanctions on Palestine. The world begins to care a little more about them. So the new government is essentially the same, and Israel blasts out rhetoric.
Result: mortars.
How about not fucking shooting mortars and bring the fucking Israelis to the table to talk about growing old together?
Can't do that? Too much history? Well then fuck them both.
Give me a break Serge.
Don't twist my words please. I agree this conflict is both sides' fault. I'm only saying Israel could move first.Pug wrote:
A couple thoughts here:sergeriver wrote:
I agree with you in almost every word, but I still think Israel has oppressed Palestinians for so much time, they should make the first step. It's a matter of showing you want to end this war, and Israel ain't doing that. Palestine is a weak state???? with no power at all. Ok, they have some mortars, wow, top notch weapons, lol. Both sides are fuckups. But Israel is a country and Palestine is a controlled land, just a joke, so the country should move first. Both sides have extremists who don't want this war to end, so fuck those extremists and then they'll be able to go to the table.
1) Hamas = hates Israel, will never make peace with Israel & Israel will never make peace with them. So forgive me but, bullshit...this is NOT a one-sided event that is all Israel's fault. It's the Palestians deciding they wish to continue to be hostile.
2) So you think a couple of mortars, a car bomb or two, or a suicide bombing is forcing Israel to the negotiation table? Both sides believe they are protecting themselves - but in this case it is complete bullshit. All it proves is that either the Hamas condone the action or have no control over their own people. Exactly the reason why Israel takes its harsh stance.
3) It's the extremists' fault? Lebanon can't control its own people partially because the Hamas aren't actively doing anything to prevent it, and are supporting it at some level. So Israeli overreaction is part of the bargain. So I ask you this - who will prevent the extremists from attacking? My answer is Israel - which sucks because its the last resort.
4) The first step should be taken by Israel? Why? There is history of Israel trying with loose guarantees of discontinuing these types of actions, which resulted in more frequent attacks. What concession are you looking for, when I see you bring up one-tenth of the magnitude of what a Palestian is thinking "but the past...what can make up for the past"?
5) "Ok they have some mortars, wow, top notch weapons". I saw on this forum once where Israel was being criticized for shooting rubber bullets at kids throwing rocks at tanks. Well, Israel threw some words around and the shelling began. There's a parallel there if you can see it. Does it matter how someone is killed?
I'm really tired of this one-sided crap. Both are dirty. Both want to kill each other. No concessions will ever make up for the past.
But there is a solution.
History has proven that the victor traditionally can force its will over the other (Japan, Germany & the Confederacy). Guerilla wars rarely outright win. A conflict like this won't end until the weaker side makes the concession, not the other way around. And that sucks, but it's the only way that will ease tensions in the region. And I think the concession can be bought by Israeli reparations...so the ball is in the Palestinians' court - can they prevent the actions of the few within their society from assisting in their society's destruction?
On the other hand the Israeli's aren't helping matters either, but why would you expect them to act differently when every time something positive happens in the region results in a greater influx of problems? The Palestinian cause is a lost cause, the sooner they proactively pursue peace by making a token gesture - stop attaking Israel - the better. Otherwise Israel is going to continue to be Israel.
You know that's only going to happen if a third party does it.sergeriver wrote:
Don't twist my words please. I agree this conflict is both sides' fault. I'm only saying Israel could move first.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
We all know who the third party is.Kmarion wrote:
You know that's only going to happen if a third party does it.sergeriver wrote:
Don't twist my words please. I agree this conflict is both sides' fault. I'm only saying Israel could move first.
What words did I twist? I supplied my opinion.sergeriver wrote:
Don't twist my words please. I agree this conflict is both sides' fault. I'm only saying Israel could move first.
North Korea?...lolsergeriver wrote:
We all know who the third party is.Kmarion wrote:
You know that's only going to happen if a third party does it.sergeriver wrote:
Don't twist my words please. I agree this conflict is both sides' fault. I'm only saying Israel could move first.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I think its about time the USA kicks Israel out of the perverbial "nest" . . . . .
Israel is a big boy now, and can fend for itself. . . .
Why do we continue to blindly support them? Its just beyond me. . . . how many more problems come our way as a result of turning a blind eye to the Israeli's. . . .it just as bad as the arabs turning their eyes to what the Palestinians have done. . . .
We need not to mettle in their affairs anymore. . . .we have bigger fish to fry on our own end!!! Its obvious that US involvement has not done anything to help further a meaningful peace whatsoever. I am not saying we need to kiss any arabs ass, but we need to let Israel take care of its own destiny. I am tired of us holding Israel's hand EVERY step of the way!! Its really grown tiresome. . . .and in all honesty, what has it done for the benefit of the USA?
nothing. . . .
Israel is a big boy now, and can fend for itself. . . .
Why do we continue to blindly support them? Its just beyond me. . . . how many more problems come our way as a result of turning a blind eye to the Israeli's. . . .it just as bad as the arabs turning their eyes to what the Palestinians have done. . . .
We need not to mettle in their affairs anymore. . . .we have bigger fish to fry on our own end!!! Its obvious that US involvement has not done anything to help further a meaningful peace whatsoever. I am not saying we need to kiss any arabs ass, but we need to let Israel take care of its own destiny. I am tired of us holding Israel's hand EVERY step of the way!! Its really grown tiresome. . . .and in all honesty, what has it done for the benefit of the USA?
nothing. . . .
Last edited by fadedsteve (2007-03-20 17:59:55)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel's_u … ement_plansergeriver wrote:
When did that happen? Israel never left the OT. They control them, and they even allow settlements. That isn't pulling out. You have this wrong.lowing wrote:
Did Israel not offer the first olive branch by pulling out of Gaza and the West Bank? Only to be rocketed in response?? Or do I have this wrong?sergeriver wrote:
I agree with you in almost every word, but I still think Israel has oppressed Palestinians for so much time, they should make the first step. It's a matter of showing you want to end this war, and Israel ain't doing that. Palestine is a weak state???? with no power at all. Ok, they have some mortars, wow, top notch weapons, lol. Both sides are fuckups. But Israel is a country and Palestine is a controlled land, just a joke, so the country should move first. Both sides have extremists who don't want this war to end, so fuck those extremists and then they'll be able to go to the table.
What am I missing?
Wow, that article really cleared things up, thanks....................lowing wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel's_u … ement_plansergeriver wrote:
When did that happen? Israel never left the OT. They control them, and they even allow settlements. That isn't pulling out. You have this wrong.lowing wrote:
Did Israel not offer the first olive branch by pulling out of Gaza and the West Bank? Only to be rocketed in response?? Or do I have this wrong?
What am I missing?
Regardless, a plan for disengagement isn't the same as leaving.
..oops not sure what happened that ain't the page I linked. hold onBubbalo wrote:
Wow, that article really cleared things up, thanks....................lowing wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel's_u … ement_plansergeriver wrote:
When did that happen? Israel never left the OT. They control them, and they even allow settlements. That isn't pulling out. You have this wrong.
What am I missing?
Regardless, a plan for disengagement isn't the same as leaving.
Hell, i dunno whatt he problem is, I can read it but it won't link. You can find the details of the pull out in Wiki if ya wanna read it.
Last edited by lowing (2007-03-20 18:24:26)
I need clarification (this isn't sarcastic) - why isn't allowing settlements the same as coexisting? Is it because allowing settlements also allowed violence from both sides? I thought the purpose of the settlements was for coexistence.
Israelis settlements aren't allowed, but they keep making them. The OT belong to Palestine, but are controlled by Israel. That land belong to Palestinians. If an Israeli wants to live there it's ok as it's ok for a Paslestinian to live in Israel, but Israel has many settlements, that's not coexistence, that's invasion.Pug wrote:
I need clarification (this isn't sarcastic) - why isn't allowing settlements the same as coexisting? Is it because allowing settlements also allowed violence from both sides? I thought the purpose of the settlements was for coexistence.
The last sentence confused me a bit - I'm assuming some of it refers to areas outside of the disputed regions.
I mean the OT aka the Occupied Territories.Pug wrote:
The last sentence confused me a bit - I'm assuming some of it refers to areas outside of the disputed regions.
From wiki:sergeriver wrote:
I mean the OT aka the Occupied Territories.Pug wrote:
The last sentence confused me a bit - I'm assuming some of it refers to areas outside of the disputed regions.
In the summer of 2005, Israel implemented its unilateral disengagement plan; about 8500 Israeli citizens living in the Gaza Strip were forcibly removed from the territory; some received alternative homes and a sum of money. The Israeli Defence Forces vacated Gaza in 2005, but invaded it again in 2006 in response to rocket attacks and the abduction of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit by Hamas.
Unfortunate all the way around.
We said it before, this is the fault of both Palestine and Israel.Pug wrote:
From wiki:sergeriver wrote:
I mean the OT aka the Occupied Territories.Pug wrote:
The last sentence confused me a bit - I'm assuming some of it refers to areas outside of the disputed regions.
In the summer of 2005, Israel implemented its unilateral disengagement plan; about 8500 Israeli citizens living in the Gaza Strip were forcibly removed from the territory; some received alternative homes and a sum of money. The Israeli Defence Forces vacated Gaza in 2005, but invaded it again in 2006 in response to rocket attacks and the abduction of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit by Hamas.
Unfortunate all the way around.
Those jews are out for world domination again, we'll see who wins in the end Lets hope they dont lie about another certain "mass killing of themselves" to gain support... *hint*
Last edited by meinfuhrer (2007-03-21 12:36:20)
Not those Jews as you claim, but the government of Israel, two different things. I hope you were joking with the lie thing. A very anti-semite comment to make meinasshat.meinfuhrer wrote:
Those jews are out for world domination again, we'll see who wins in the end Lets hope they dont lie about another certain "mass killing of themselves" to gain support... *hint*
There goes the anti-semite card, It doesnt make me an anti-jude to say a lie is a lie, but thats a discussion for another time.sergeriver wrote:
Not those Jews as you claim, but the government of Israel, two different things. I hope you were joking with the lie thing. A very anti-semite comment to make meinasshat.meinfuhrer wrote:
Those jews are out for world domination again, we'll see who wins in the end Lets hope they dont lie about another certain "mass killing of themselves" to gain support... *hint*