BF2S Forums Mathematics

no and yes

eh, yeah.. we need math.  Our buildings would fall over, how would money work?  Ratios, proportions it's all part of modern day life.  Without it, we probably wouldn't have computers...

I guess you could argue that it's "unimportant" for our existence, but that existence would consist of hunting with blunt objects..

But all the playa's wouldn't be able to count their bills.. fo real doh.

Actually, I think the question is just the wrong question - we can not possibly 'live without mathematics' - maths is not something we invented - it just is.

A lot of animals can count too.

But we could live, and have invented all the things we have, without using mathematics.

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2007-03-15 22:42:33)

SuperSlowYo wrote:

math provides us with economics.. without economics wed just be a bunch of sharing hippies.. and i hate hippies even more than i hate math

We could barter. Bartering doesn't require math.

Without math college would have been easier. I can honestly say that math studies cut into at least 6 hours per week of my time. That is 6 hours of beer consuming, party hard, naked moments of indiscretion. That is 6 hours of sex ( 360 times.....give or take) , and frankly I have had it with math. There are to many numbers to keep track of.

Kmarion wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

SuperSlowYo wrote:

math provides us with economics.. without economics wed just be a bunch of sharing hippies.. and i hate hippies even more than i hate math

We could barter. Bartering doesn't require math.

It requires rationing which is a step towards it . 4 donkeys is not equivalent to 30 eggs.

No it doesn't - you give me some donkeys, I give you some eggs - if we are both happy with the arrangement, it doesn't matter how many of each we each gave the other... You could manage with nothing more than the concepts 'more' and 'less' (without attaching numerousy (sp?) to those concepts)

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

eh, yeah.. we need math.  Our buildings would fall over, how would money work?  Ratios, proportions it's all part of modern day life.  Without it, we probably wouldn't have computers...

I guess you could argue that it's "unimportant" for our existence, but that existence would consist of hunting with blunt objects..

We had sharp objects before we had maths.

fine, then we'd be killing people with obsidian arrow heads.

My point was that all inventions could be invented through trial and error. They do not have to be designed. (it would all take a hell of a lot longer, of course...)

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

We had sharp objects before we had maths.

fine, then we'd be killing people with obsidian arrow heads.

My point was that all inventions could be invented through trial and error. They do not have to be designed. (it would all take a hell of a lot longer, of course...)

sure, but only to a certain extent.  it would take millions of years to create the electronic "gadgets" that we've made in 60.  life without math would suck almost as much as it sucks with math.  It's a lose lose

Last edited by CommieChipmunk (2007-03-15 23:15:29)

Could humans live without mathematics? If this includes the concept of quantity (which you say it does for the purpose of this thread) then humans have probably never lived without it. That kind of reasonsing vastly predates humanity. Captive capuchins (neotropical monkeys) will even revolt from their trainers if they are aware of unequal pay (rewards) between trained animals. The most recent common ancestor between new-world monkeys and humans was almost 30 million years ago. So clearly this concept pervades many species (and not merely the Primates, read about elephants, dogs, and dolphins).

So no, humans didn't invent mathematics as you define it and no, humans could not live without their understanding of quantity.

However, by humans I mean humans as societies. Individual humans could easily live without any understanding of quantity at all. This is because people frequently support disabled individuals. But in general, a human society could not survive without an understanding of quantity. How else would hunter-gatherers know when to stay and when to go? Let alone other cultures (like the far east and west) with their ever-increasing dependence upon complex math-based technologies.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

eh, yeah.. we need math.  Our buildings would fall over, how would money work?  Ratios, proportions it's all part of modern day life.  Without it, we probably wouldn't have computers...

I guess you could argue that it's "unimportant" for our existence, but that existence would consist of hunting with blunt objects..

We had sharp objects before we had maths.

Yeah, thats incorrect, we started using tools well after we were using our knowledge of quantity. I don't believe we could have been decent hunter gatherers without being able to ration food and estimate yields of different resources.

"Hunting with blunt objects" is what we were doing when our brains ballooned and we began talking and carefully sculpting stone for various purposes. It is actually extremely difficult to survive without the luxuries (and safety nets) that our highly populated and networked societies offer. The average person today is probably less intelligent than their ancestors 2000 years ago. Culture accumulates genius technologies but less is always expected of the individuals.

I would say most of technology up ot the last 2 centuries depended much more upon spatial and linguistic reasoning than math. However the explosion in the use of computers and complicated machinery recently has shifted many cultures' technological needs to mathematics.

Last edited by Marinejuana (2007-03-15 23:50:59)

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

Marinejuana wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

We had sharp objects before we had maths.

Yeah, thats incorrect, we started using tools well after we were using our knowledge of quantity. I don't believe we could have been decent hunter gatherers without being able to ration food and estimate yields of different resources.

I beg to differ. But unfortunately we can't go back and find out for sure, so it's just gonna be pure speculation on either side...

No it is much more than speculation. Human genetic and archaeological evidence clearly demonstrates that we had a sense of quantity long before we ever used a tool. Look it up. You may be speculating, but I am just passing on things I've learned in anthro classes.

Last edited by Marinejuana (2007-03-16 09:24:01)

Canadian_Sniper_X wrote:

My co-worker claims that math is unimportant for our existence... and that everything we have now could eventually have been obtained/created/invented without math. (He's a philosophy guy)

no, what he is is a staggering, blatant, ignorant idiot.