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2007-03-15 14:33:53
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6958|Global Command
HADITHA MARINE SPEAKS PUBLICLY FOR FIRST TIME:
https://i16.tinypic.com/2ppltft.jpg

Wuterich says the Marines tossed a grenade into a room in the dwelling before determining who was inside. They pressed the attack with a charge through the door and gunshots to kill any survivors. According to Wuterich, this was the best way to clear a house safely, and he has no compunction about doing it. "You can't hesitate to make a decision. Hesitation equals being killed, either yourself or your men... That's what we do. That's how our training goes."
Too bad Gunslingers thread got deleted as all the previous debate was fantastic. I said then that the troops should be given the benefit of the doubt and that what they did was SOP. I am inspired that there are Americans like this brave man, willing to risk his life and with the moral clarity to explain his actions in the face the of the press.

The civilians killed by Wuterich and his men were non-combatants. This type of thing is the result of urban, flag-less fighters using occupied houses as fighting platforms.  War is hell, these men are doing the right thing and if Bush was any kind of a Commander in Chief he would issue a pardon.



http://www.drudgereport.com/flash5.htm



Here is the original story:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 02069.html

Last edited by ATG (2007-03-15 14:34:31)

2007-03-15 14:34:44
2tuff
Positive Karma Here!
+357|7204
Doh!

Nice sig BTW
2007-03-15 14:39:53
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7194|Cambridge (UK)
This is exactly why we should never have put troops in iraq in the first place.
2007-03-15 21:48:29
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6916|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
I know Frank personaly, I was a Instructor with him at MCT West and what he said is standard SOP for MOUNT, they took fire from the house, I know it sucks that civilians were killed, but thats what happens when the "FREEDOM FIGHTERS", fight from behind human sheilds. The AO that I worked was right next to that area, the enemy was almost all forigen, and they treat the Iraqis like shit, but the Iraqis are afraid of if they say anything they will be excuted by them.

spell check isnt working for me, I suck at spelling

Edit: If they would let us do our fucking jobs insted of slapping reqs that almost need 3 days to get approved, Iraq would have been calmed along time ago

Last edited by SgtHeihn (2007-03-15 21:51:34)

2007-03-15 21:48:29
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7080|USA

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

This is exactly why we should never have put troops in iraq in the first place.
LOL, Ohhhhhhhhhhh brother!
2007-03-15 21:58:12
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7194|Cambridge (UK)

lowing wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

This is exactly why we should never have put troops in iraq in the first place.
LOL, Ohhhhhhhhhhh brother!
?
2007-03-15 22:00:42
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6958|Global Command
He means...drrrrrr
2007-03-15 22:03:04
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7194|Cambridge (UK)

ATG wrote:

He means...drrrrrr
?

Blimey - I'm away from the forums for a while and everybody loses their ability to form coherent sentences.
2007-03-15 22:10:05
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7080|USA

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

ATG wrote:

He means...drrrrrr
?

Blimey - I'm away from the forums for a while and everybody loses their ability to form coherent sentences.
No not really, as soon as a "coherent" or rational sentence is posted, it will be, likewise, addressed as such.
2007-03-15 22:18:44
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7194|Cambridge (UK)

lowing wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

ATG wrote:

He means...drrrrrr
?

Blimey - I'm away from the forums for a while and everybody loses their ability to form coherent sentences.
No not really, as soon as a "coherent" or rational sentence is posted, it will be, likewise, addressed as such.
Ok.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

This is exactly why we should never have put troops in iraq in the first place.
Clearly coherent. How is it not rational exactly?
2007-03-15 22:21:52
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7080|USA

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:


?

Blimey - I'm away from the forums for a while and everybody loses their ability to form coherent sentences.
No not really, as soon as a "coherent" or rational sentence is posted, it will be, likewise, addressed as such.
Ok.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

This is exactly why we should never have put troops in iraq in the first place.
Clearly coherent. How is it not rational exactly?
because, this incident is not the reason why Saddam should not have been removed from power forcefully. Suggesting it is, is not coherent or rational.
2007-03-15 22:23:50
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|7101|Colorado
It's called war for a reason.
2007-03-15 22:27:49
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7194|Cambridge (UK)

lowing wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

lowing wrote:


No not really, as soon as a "coherent" or rational sentence is posted, it will be, likewise, addressed as such.
Ok.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

This is exactly why we should never have put troops in iraq in the first place.
Clearly coherent. How is it not rational exactly?
because, this incident is not the reason why Saddam should not have been removed from power forcefully. Suggesting it is, is not coherent or rational.
I am not saying that we should not have removed Saddam. I just don't believe that ever required us to use military force. It most definately did not require us to massacre innocent men, women and children in the process.
2007-03-16 04:15:41
lowing
Banned
+1,662|7080|USA

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

lowing wrote:

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

lowing wrote:

No not really, as soon as a "coherent" or rational sentence is posted, it will be, likewise, addressed as such.
Ok.


Clearly coherent. How is it not rational exactly?
because, this incident is not the reason why Saddam should not have been removed from power forcefully. Suggesting it is, is not coherent or rational.
I am not saying that we should not have removed Saddam. I just don't believe that ever required us to use military force. It most definately did not require us to massacre innocent men, women and children in the process.
THet tried asking him to give up his power, I think, but he refused.
2007-03-16 06:15:45
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6990

ATG wrote:

I am inspired that there are Americans like this brave man
Oh, yeah, it must take real courage to gun down innocent civilians because you don't want to risk being shot.
2007-03-16 06:19:31
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6958|Global Command

Bubbalo wrote:

ATG wrote:

I am inspired that there are Americans like this brave man
Oh, yeah, it must take real courage to gun down innocent civilians because you don't want to risk being shot.
I take it you make your judgements on emotions and not from the story:P


"Did we know that civilians were in there? No. It would have been one thing if we went in those rooms and looked at everyone and shot them," Wuterich tells Pelley. "We cleared these houses the way they were supposed to be cleared."
2007-03-16 06:21:53
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6990

ATG wrote:

I take it you make your judgements on emotions and not from the story:P
I make my judgement based on the fact that they had no clue who was in there.  I never claimed that they knew they were civilians, now or in previous discussions, and so far as I am concerned, it makes little difference.
2007-03-16 06:28:34
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6958|Global Command
As does their training, right?
2007-03-16 06:43:39
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6990
Being ordered to commit murder is no excuse, that was established at Nuremberg.
2007-03-16 08:43:27
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6874|The Land of Scott Walker

Bubbalo wrote:

ATG wrote:

I take it you make your judgements on emotions and not from the story:P
I make my judgement based on the fact that they had no clue who was in there.  I never claimed that they knew they were civilians, now or in previous discussions, and so far as I am concerned, it makes little difference.
Ok, so you're leading a squad and you and your men are being SHOT AT from a house.  You take cover and order one of your men to clear the room.  He tosses in a nade as he's trained to and after it explodes, you rush in and finish off those inside.  It's war, it sucks, but that's how it works.  It's not murder, it's a warzone.
2007-03-16 09:02:05
SFCCDailey
Banned
+106|7144|USA

Bubbalo wrote:

ATG wrote:

I am inspired that there are Americans like this brave man
Oh, yeah, it must take real courage to gun down innocent civilians because you don't want to risk being shot.
Ok, I have to respond to this Bullshit! As a Gulf War Vet myself I can speak from first Hand experience. I'm sure you have no fucking idea of what you are talking about unless I misunderstood and you have actually served this country in time of war. When being shot at from a residence, you don't know who in there is firing at you and you sure as hell don't have time to go ask nicely for the non-combatants to please get out of the house before you fire the first round in there. There is something called the "Fog of War" which basically means when the bullets start flying and the explosions are going off, some soldier's judgment becomes clouded and their only thought is "Fight or flight". Most soldiers are not going to take the "flight" option so their instinct is to protect themselves and their fellow soldiers by firing back at the location from which they are being engaged. As harsh as it may be, sometimes innocent people get killed. But as one of my instructors once told me when I was going through training, "It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six." There are way too many of you people sitting back taking weeks even months to tear apart the decisions that a soldier has to make in a split second during combat. Think about that the next time you decide to pass judgment about something you know nothing about or before you make ignorant statements like "Oh, yeah, it must take real courage to gun down innocent civilians because you don't want to risk being shot." I'll let you tell that bullshit to some of the families that have lost their sons and daughters over in Iraq.

From now on, keep your stupid comments to yourself DR. Shit for Brains!
2007-03-16 09:02:09
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6916|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

Bubbalo wrote:

ATG wrote:

I take it you make your judgements on emotions and not from the story:P
I make my judgement based on the fact that they had no clue who was in there.  I never claimed that they knew they were civilians, now or in previous discussions, and so far as I am concerned, it makes little difference.
Thats one of those funning things, the enemy doesn't put up a big sign saying we in here. They don't were uniforms, they work in cells, and they hide in civilians houses.
You can sit here and what if what Frank did all day, but, until you have been in the same situation, don't call him a murderer
2007-03-16 09:17:26
GATOR591957
Member
+84|7056

Bubbalo wrote:

ATG wrote:

I am inspired that there are Americans like this brave man
Oh, yeah, it must take real courage to gun down innocent civilians because you don't want to risk being shot.
I take from your sentence you've never been there or done that.  If I'm wrong, excuse the rest of this rant.  If you've never been there and done that,.  If you've never experienced fearing for, not only your life, but the lives of your buddies, you have NO background to utter a statement as ignorant as that.  If you looked at the facts, they were taking fire from the house.  Try to put yourself in that position.  If you can't I'll give you my address and I'll put you in it.  See how you feel then.

Last edited by GATOR591957 (2007-03-16 09:19:28)

2007-03-16 09:19:09
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6984
Hang on just one minute here all you justifiers of murder:

- He said firing at the men was justified because he had identified them as military-age males in a car close to where a roadside bomb had just exploded.
- Those who died included a 76-year-old man and a three-year-old child. There were also several women among the dead. Military-age males?

This guy is just a murderer who saw red when his buddies got blown up by a roadside bomb several hours earlier. That's about the height of it - you can pretty it up all you want but he killed non-threatening unarmed civilians and ordered others to do so as well. He can rot in jail for his crimes.

I can understand why he might have done it, from a rage point of view, and I can understand that the heat of battle is intense - but this guy is clearly a substandard soldier. He fucked up and must pay the price for his ineptitude and unprofessionalism.

Anyway, how can you trust this cunt's account:

- There was no full US investigation into what happened until three months later when video footage taken by a local human rights activist of the aftermath reached Time Magazine. Once their report showed flaws in the initial marine statement, an investigation began.

This is what happens when you try and fight guerrillas with a conventional army. You lose the hearts and minds, making military success impossible.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-03-16 09:26:11)

2007-03-16 09:24:00
GATOR591957
Member
+84|7056

CameronPoe wrote:

Hang on just one minute here all you justifiers of murder:

- He said firing at the men was justified because he had identified them as military-age males in a car close to where a roadside bomb had just exploded.
- Those who died included a 76-year-old man and a three-year-old child. There were also several women among the dead. Military-age males?

This guy is just a murderer who saw red when his buddies got blown up by a roadside bomb several hours earlier. That's about the height of it - you can pretty it up all you want but he killed non-threatening unarmed civilians and ordered others to do so as well. He can rot in jail for his crimes.

I can understand why he might have done it, from a rage point of view, and I can understand that the heat of battle is intense - but this guy is clearly a substandard soldier. He fucked up and must pay the price for his ineptitude and unprofessionalism.

Anyway, how can you trust this cunt's account:

- There was no full US investigation into what happened until three months later when video footage taken by a local human rights activist of the aftermath reached Time Magazine. Once their report showed flaws in the initial marine statement, an investigation began.
"The Marines attacked the first house with the permission of a superior officer because they thought two or three shots were fired at them from it. Wuterich says the Marines tossed a grenade into a room in the dwelling before determining who was inside."

 

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