Commie Killer
Member
+192|6814
Little background:


Teacher: Ex army, spent 3 years over in Germany in the late 80s. Pretty good teacher, like him.

Non-named-student/ex-girlfriend: Went out with for a little while, fun times and yeah, never really thought she was the smartest person in the world, she is a little....well......stupid some....most of the time. Me and her are still great friends by the way. She thinks she deserves special treatment, stuff like that, shes very innocent and naive, great person, though her outlook on the world is rather twisted. She kinda imagines the world as pink with a bunch of teddy bears, at least thats the opinion I get. Lets just say she is a very confused, rather emo(she says unique, NO COMMENTS ABOUT EMO'S), thinks everything is simple kind of person.  Anyways.....

Me: Go look for me in the describe yourself thread, Im to lazy to go get my post.

Story:
Today in my History/Social Studies/Geography class we were talking about the war of 1812 and the "War Hawks" who were campaigning for a war against Britain in the few years up to that(we have been talking about this subject for the past few months). My teacher asked us, the class, what do WE think a valid reason for war is, I didnt answer, I dont answer political questions, I dont push my opinions or even waste my breath on telling them, last time I did it all turned into a shouting match with me and 2 other kids vs. the class. Anyways the NNS(non-named-student) raises her hand and yells out "NOTHING!!!!". We then precede to talk about politics and then it went to the war in Iraq, which I started laughing for awhile, the amount of ill informed people was amazing, they were speaking of stuff which would be spread around on a email chain letter. It was just comical......
Then the NNS breaks in, saying that what is the point of going to war over WMD's and stuff, I mean if we never started war there wouldnt be any WMD's. Then she made the comment of, we should just out law war, disband our military, and give in to what other countries want, that way they will be happy and disband their military(no lies, that is almost a direct quote). Amazingly, most of the class agreed with this. The teacher then told us to "shut the hell up" and he moved on to another subject.


1.) Do you think this is a large majority of the populations that makes extremely ill informed and ill thought out decisions? Such as discarding 1000's of years of human history, the most basic ideas of how the world works, etc?

2.) Being 15, I know that it seems that people always try to follow the crowd. People never really think for themselves, someone that they think is better then them says something(it can be a celebrity, a more popular person, anything). Do you agree with this?

3.) Do you think that this will cause a demise in achievement made by us, the human race, or do you think this has always been happening and we just hadn't noticed it.?

*More will be added as I think of them.*




PS. I do not think war is a good thing, it is the horrible and one of the worst practices of man kind, I personally think that war is a last resort option, after politics have failed.




Warning: If someone makes a serious comment that goes along the lines of "stupid AMERICANS", you fall in with number 1. This happens all over the world.
Warning #2: If this turns into a Iraq war thread, I will ask a mod to either clean it up and watch it, or close it.

Last edited by Commie Killer (2007-02-28 13:00:20)

jonsimon
Member
+224|6922
1. Yes.
2. Yes. It's how the world works, you listen to those you believe to be better informed than you are. The only problems arise when people make poor judgements about those they believe.
3. No. It's how leadership works, it's how society has and always will work.

As for your class, I know exactly how you feel. Political discussion with average people sounds as stupid and poorly thought out as most of the threads on this forum. I make a game out of spotting the fallacies to better my own logic.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7008|SE London

1)Yes.
2)Yes.
3)There have always been silly naive people. There always will be. There is a difference between idealism and what is workable. But then most achievements have been made by people acting in very unpleasant ways (WWII for example).
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6988
I know you don't want any stupid American comments, but...................

Not so much "stupid Americans" as "dumb Westerners".  Fact is, the citizenry of a powerful nation have always, historically, been insular and somewhat foolish when it comes to the outside world.  The more secure they feel, the less they know or care about how everything works.  Therefore, the more powerful a nation is, the dumber it's citizenry will appear, in general.  I say in general because those who actually make the system work will of course understand the world, they have to to make it work.  In the end, I suppose my stance is that the view that they hold has a similar flavour to the view of Britons during the colonial era, or the Romans at the height of their empire.  And there would be those who hold the same view worldwide: the more powerful and secure the nation, the more insular, and the more who hold the types of views you're talking about.  The less secure they feel, the more they care.

Basically, you have to choose between living with people that stupid, or having America become the weakest and most oppressed nation, thereby making people give a damn about what's happening.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6814

Bubbalo wrote:

I know you don't want any stupid American comments, but...................

Not so much "stupid Americans" as "dumb Westerners".  Fact is, the citizenry of a powerful nation have always, historically, been insular and somewhat foolish when it comes to the outside world.  The more secure they feel, the less they know or care about how everything works.  Therefore, the more powerful a nation is, the dumber it's citizenry will appear, in general.  I say in general because those who actually make the system work will of course understand the world, they have to to make it work.  In the end, I suppose my stance is that the view that they hold has a similar flavour to the view of Britons during the colonial era, or the Romans at the height of their empire.  And there would be those who hold the same view worldwide: the more powerful and secure the nation, the more insular, and the more who hold the types of views you're talking about.  The less secure they feel, the more they care.

Basically, you have to choose between living with people that stupid, or having America become the weakest and most oppressed nation, thereby making people give a damn about what's happening.
Yeah, I totally agree with the top part, and about the bottom part, with the people that stupid, it may cause our downfall.
Naughty_Om
Im Ron Burgundy?
+355|7060|USA
Sounds like my USAP Class. The brightest kids of my 11th grade. Yet when my teacher asked us "Who is the current Governor of Illionois (the state in which we live in)?" the majority of my class said George ryan, some didnt answer and then me and my friend almost died with laughter. I hate stupid smart people, they piss me off yet are funny to talk to.
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6895
You are for the most part right. However I would like to say that the main reason that people are stupid these days is because they make themselves think that being smart and well educated is uniportant. How else can you explain news channels spending more time discussing celeberties than actual news. People no longer beleive being smart is important, that and the things what you and Bubbalo said about "following the crowd" and "feeling to safe" are also large factors.

I hate stupid people, every second I spend listening to them my sole dies a little more.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

Commie Killer wrote:

Then the NNS breaks in, saying that what is the point of going to war over WMD's and stuff, I mean if we never started war there wouldnt be any WMD's. Then she made the comment of, we should just out law war, disband our military, and give in to what other countries want, that way they will be happy and disband their military(no lies, that is almost a direct quote). Amazingly, most of the class agreed with this. The teacher then told us to "shut the hell up" and he moved on to another subject.

1.) Do you think this is a large majority of the populations that makes extremely ill informed and ill thought out decisions? Such as discarding 1000's of years of human history, the most basic ideas of how the world works, etc?

2.) Being 15, I know that it seems that people always try to follow the crowd. People never really think for themselves, someone that they think is better then them says something(it can be a celebrity, a more popular person, anything). Do you agree with this?

3.) Do you think that this will cause a demise in achievement made by us, the human race, or do you think this has always been happening and we just hadn't noticed it.?

*More will be added as I think of them.*

PS. I do not think war is a good thing, it is the horrible and one of the worst practices of man kind, I personally think that war is a last resort option, after politics have failed.

Warning: If someone makes a serious comment that goes along the lines of "stupid AMERICANS", you fall in with number 1. This happens all over the world.
Warning #2: If this turns into a Iraq war thread, I will ask a mod to either clean it up and watch it, or close it.
Some people have already posted things in this thread that I agree with, but I'll add a few more observations.

I think you and I have a similar outlook on war.  We realize that it is sometimes necessary, but where we disagree is on the grey area of when to intervene.

I'm an isolationist for the most part, so I believe the only wars we should be getting in are defensive.  Unless we've been attacked or there really is a serious threat of attack looming toward us, I'm against entering the conflict.

Now, I realize that many people probably saw Iraq in similar terms with the WMD rationale in mind.  I just saw the WMD argument as bullshit, but given the context of believing the argument, I can understand why some people would want to intervene.

Getting more specifically to the questions....

1)Most people are stupid.  It's really that simple.  I know it sounds assholish to put it this way, but I really know of no other way to explain it....

2)Teenagers are especially susceptible to peer pressure, but as I grow older, I start to notice how little adults differ from teens.  It really goes back to Nietzsche's ubermenschen and untermenschen ideas.  Most people are followers, while a few are leaders.  As another poster put it, society depends on far more followers than leaders, so it's not a completely bad thing for so many people to be followers.

The only thing that's bothersome about this widespread ignorance is how it affects democracy.  I have to seriously question the relevance of democracy, when the majority of people are too dumb to really know what's best for them governmentally.  Meritocracy would be a better form of government, but it's very difficult to properly implement this form of government.

3)It has happened since the beginning of mankind.  You don't have much to worry about, but if you feel capable enough for it, try to be an ubermensch (a leader) instead of an untermensch (a follower).  Leaders generally get more out of life than followers....
Fen321
Member
+54|6925|Singularity
I'm not entirely sure why you would equate your peers idea of outlawing war as something "stupid," when you can look back to 1928 Kellogg-Briand Pact which had an intended purpose to OUTLAW WAR as an instrument to settle disputes. Surprisingly enough the pact itself and a significant amount of signatories due to memories of the not so distant great war. Hell the UN charter that the majority of the world subscribes to OUT LAWS the use of aggression towards any other state....so i highly think you should reconsider your belief with regards to that notion.


1.) Surprisingly enough this is a very general statement and cannot have a good answer unless you get specific. Discarding basic human ideas of how the world works IS ESSENTIAL if you want to break free from the status quo of today. If societies were stagnant and did not continue to develop their "basic ideas" of how the world works you would not see half of the great discoveries made today both in the political and scientific fields so i highly suggest you really take a look at this statement.

If i assume you are reffing to being ill informed with regards to political decisions then yes you are absolutely correct. When speaking specifically about America you will come to see that the overwhelming majority of individuals in this country -- don't care about politics -- Why do you ask? Well what is the intrinsic value of knowing so much about politics in the states when you as an individual have a faint chance of influencing it? Hell knowing your political representatives (average person here) does nothing to improve your everyday problems, or so they think. So why take the time to memorize all of the representatives in the Senate / House of Representatives?


2.) Conformity in high school is essentially what its about. You worry about 1 year differences and age/grade and somehow equate that to having a higher "status," so yes essentially people want to be conformist at this age since you are still trying to "find" yourself in this world. If you purposefully go against the grain you will find yourself isolated and this is by no means a happy time for someone that doesn't even know ones self yet.


3.) If your referring to conformity -- no i don't think it will cause the demise of the human race. The few are responsible for changes to the many. This is evident through out history, but one can begin to question that train of thought and wonder how a society that does not conform to certain "norms" will function.

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