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Topic closed

2007-02-26 13:54:04
KylieTastic
Games, Girls, Guinness
+85|6467|Cambridge, UK

I think this thread is well derailed from original post

Small attempt to get back on topic.... "Why are the godless so concerned?"

I post/argue with people on religion for two reasons:

[1] Because I enjoy mental jousts: in fact as I think me and IRONCHEF agree on, to be an atheist you have to put some proper thought into it, and as such that's what 'debate' is about - people who think that want to discuss for the fun of it, and yes to try to win over some of the opposition to your side.

[2] I believe its needed to give a counter point. People need to put out different points of views on religious or political philosophies because if not (as in some part of the world, history) you get cults, religious fundamentalists, terrorists and 'evil' people in power (Nazi). 

The question could be why are the "children of god so concerned?" as well as it takes two sides to discuss.

Last edited by KylieTastic (2007-02-26 13:55:35)

2007-02-26 13:56:08
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6505|Northern California

Bertster7 wrote:

...but I would argue that they are not qualified or proven and cannot ever be so.
And i'm saying you can't make that argument without knowing what believers know.  That's like you not ever playing golf or seeing it and then saying to Tiger Woods he can't sink that long put.  Also, the criteria for "proving" in your mind is saying that nobody can have higher criteria to prove things.  As with most believers, faith and the qualifying of faith in the form of an answer or response from god is a much greater criteria than what a non-believer would use to judge things.

I think it was Magellan that proved the world was round...  When he set sail, the criteria at hand (to the "world is flat" crowd) to judge his lunacy declared his idea to be a joke.  Then upon proving the world was round, the criteria to judge changed.  This elevated form of judgment based on your limited criteria is why it's not likely that you can dispute the existence of divine intervention as I've said in my arguments.  I know this from personal experience having gone from one limited form of judgment to my current one.  It's part of human evolution.
2007-02-26 14:09:41
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6615|132 and Bush

KylieTastic wrote:

The question could be why are the "children of god so concerned?" as well as it takes two sides to discuss.
Because their teachings tell them to be concerned. They have a doctrine to go by, something that tells them to go and spread the word of God.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-02-26 14:11:08
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6576
So, you guys get to be holier than thou asses because your scripture says so?

Not that I think you are, or that you're entirely wrong in the OP, but that's a stupid excuse.
2007-02-26 14:12:13
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6615|132 and Bush

Bubbalo wrote:

So, you guys get to be holier than thou asses because your scripture says so?

Not that I think you are, or that you're entirely wrong in the OP, but that's a stupid excuse.
Simple explanation to why. I did not attempt to justify it. Be careful when you jump to conclusions Bub.

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-02-26 14:12:23)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-02-26 14:13:59
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6576
How was I jumping to conclusions?  If all it is is a simple explanation, you could just as well use the same for your question:

The godless feel they need to go spread education by informing people about science.

In the end, small minded people are small minded people, regardless of their beliefs.
2007-02-26 14:19:52
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6615|132 and Bush

Bubbalo wrote:

How was I jumping to conclusions?  If all it is is a simple explanation, you could just as well use the same for your question:

The godless feel they need to go spread education by informing people about science.

In the end, small minded people are small minded people, regardless of their beliefs.
You said "you guys" for one. You think you have to discount one to have the other? Yes the godless can feel the need to educate, which is equally as disturbing as those who feel the need to preach. But, I did not see a question which asked why the godless feel the need to educate. My response was to the question, "The question could be why are the "children of god so concerned?" ".

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-02-26 14:20:08)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-02-26 14:21:51
Naughty_Om
Im Ron Burgundy?
+355|6647|USA

Kmarion wrote:

I had always understood the primary beef most atheist/agnostic had with the everyone else was that they felt others were pushing their religion on them. To me recently it seems to be quite the opposite. I understand this is a debate forum and it is a sensitive subject, but there is nothing that gets under my skin more than someone trying to impose their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) on you. Even with words like "undeniable, scientific, and fact". A persons faith and family are probably the closest things they hold to heart. Show some respect. Make your point and let it be. If you want to debate evolution or creationism there are ways to approach it without being condescending. I'll be happy to join in. People like Bertster and topal63 have demonstrated that you can have a grasp on this without trashing on a persons faith. I was going to post the threads I had in mind but I am not going to turn this into a personal attack.
Please read Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut.
2007-02-26 14:21:51
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6576

Kmarion wrote:

You said "you guys" for one.
You're religious, are you not?

Kmarion wrote:

You think you have to discount one to have the other? Yes the godless can feel the need to educate, which is equally as disturbing as those who feel the need to preach. But, I did not see a question which asked why the godless feel the need to educate. My response was to the question, "The question could be why are the "children of god so concerned?" ".
Which is exactly the same as your question, which I just provided a rationale to, where's the issue?
2007-02-26 14:27:02
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6615|132 and Bush

Bubbalo wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

You said "you guys" for one.
You're religious, are you not?
I am a man of Science.

Bubbalo wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

You think you have to discount one to have the other? Yes the godless can feel the need to educate, which is equally as disturbing as those who feel the need to preach. But, I did not see a question which asked why the godless feel the need to educate. My response was to the question, "The question could be why are the "children of god so concerned?" ".
Which is exactly the same as your question, which I just provided a rationale to, where's the issue?
True, but I'm not here to answer my own question. Please don't label me "Holier than thou" since I am not dealing in rhetoric..lol. My concern is in the treatment of each other based on their beliefs.

Naughty_Om wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

I had always understood the primary beef most atheist/agnostic had with the everyone else was that they felt others were pushing their religion on them. To me recently it seems to be quite the opposite. I understand this is a debate forum and it is a sensitive subject, but there is nothing that gets under my skin more than someone trying to impose their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) on you. Even with words like "undeniable, scientific, and fact". A persons faith and family are probably the closest things they hold to heart. Show some respect. Make your point and let it be. If you want to debate evolution or creationism there are ways to approach it without being condescending. I'll be happy to join in. People like Bertster and topal63 have demonstrated that you can have a grasp on this without trashing on a persons faith. I was going to post the threads I had in mind but I am not going to turn this into a personal attack.
Please read Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut.
I'm not big on Science fiction.

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-02-26 14:34:28)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-02-26 14:31:48
Naughty_Om
Im Ron Burgundy?
+355|6647|USA

Kmarion wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

You said "you guys" for one.
You're religious, are you not?
I am a man of Science.

Bubbalo wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

You think you have to discount one to have the other? Yes the godless can feel the need to educate, which is equally as disturbing as those who feel the need to preach. But, I did not see a question which asked why the godless feel the need to educate. My response was to the question, "The question could be why are the "children of god so concerned?" ".
Which is exactly the same as your question, which I just provided a rationale to, where's the issue?
True, but I'm not here to answer my own question. Please don't label me "Holier in thou" since I am not dealing in rhetoric..lol. My concern is in the treatment of each other based on their beliefs.

Naughty_Om wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

I had always understood the primary beef most atheist/agnostic had with the everyone else was that they felt others were pushing their religion on them. To me recently it seems to be quite the opposite. I understand this is a debate forum and it is a sensitive subject, but there is nothing that gets under my skin more than someone trying to impose their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) on you. Even with words like "undeniable, scientific, and fact". A persons faith and family are probably the closest things they hold to heart. Show some respect. Make your point and let it be. If you want to debate evolution or creationism there are ways to approach it without being condescending. I'll be happy to join in. People like Bertster and topal63 have demonstrated that you can have a grasp on this without trashing on a persons faith. I was going to post the threads I had in mind but I am not going to turn this into a personal attack.
Please read Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut.
I'm not big on Science fiction.
Its alot more than science fiction. He deals with the exact subject you are speaking on. Although the major plot may follow a seemingly science ficiton base, his point and satire rest upon the problems of today. Im serisous, its short and a very good read. Please read it.
2007-02-26 14:48:15
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6576

Kmarion wrote:

I am a man of Science.
Then you've worded your post interestingly.

Kmarion wrote:

True, but I'm not here to answer my own question.
So you're here to make random posts despite knowing exactly what you're asking to know?

Kmarion wrote:

Please don't label me "Holier than thou"

Bubbalo wrote:

Not that I think you are
Reading FTW!

Kmarion wrote:

since I am not dealing in rhetoric..lol. My concern is in the treatment of each other based on their beliefs.
Then why are you continuing the discussion despite having answered your own question?
2007-02-26 14:49:29
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6646|949

I know, lets argue for the sake of argument. 
2007-02-26 14:51:55
Naughty_Om
Im Ron Burgundy?
+355|6647|USA

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

I know, lets argue for the sake of argument. 
Duh.
2007-02-26 14:58:05
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6596|SE London

IRONCHEF wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

...but I would argue that they are not qualified or proven and cannot ever be so.
And i'm saying you can't make that argument without knowing what believers know.  That's like you not ever playing golf or seeing it and then saying to Tiger Woods he can't sink that long put.
No it's not. Believers don't 'know' anything special, that's why it's called belief. Your personal experiences may have reinforced that belief, but that does not change the fact that it is belief, faith, whatever you want to call it - it is not knowledge. It would take nothing short of a miracle to convince me otherwise.

IRONCHEF wrote:

Also, the criteria for "proving" in your mind is saying that nobody can have higher criteria to prove things.  As with most believers, faith and the qualifying of faith in the form of an answer or response from god is a much greater criteria than what a non-believer would use to judge things.
No. Proving something in your mind is not proof, it could equally well be delusion. You cannot prove an intangible concept.

But anyway, back to the original question:
Why are the godless so concerned?
Because people who are swayed by a, in my and many other peoples belief, mythical being, have the power to change the world based on a religious perspective which is irrelevant at least and terrifying and worst to the "godless". If religious beliefs (not neccessarily just having such beliefs, but allowing them to influence decisions) were totally removed from all authority roles, I would have no complaints.
2007-02-26 15:02:02
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6615|132 and Bush

Bubbalo wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

I am a man of Science.
Then you've worded your post interestingly.
It was no accident. I was speaking of the most recent trend I have seen.

Bubbalo wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

True, but I'm not here to answer my own question.
So you're here to make random posts despite knowing exactly what you're asking to know?
I saw a question and I answered it. Is that a difficult thing to comprehend?

Bubbalo wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Please don't label me "Holier than thou"

Bubbalo wrote:

Not that I think you are
Reading FTW!
Don't hold me accountable for you contradicting yourself. You did after all say "you guys".

Bubbalo wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

since I am not dealing in rhetoric..lol. My concern is in the treatment of each other based on their beliefs.
Then why are you continuing the discussion despite having answered your own question?
I was addressing the other question, again you are incapable of understanding this.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-02-26 15:11:15
King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|6612|Seattle

Since this has turned to a flame war, I'm going to close this.
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it

Topic closed

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