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2007-02-26 11:33:47
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6615|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:

It might be hard to believe for IRONCHEF, with him being from America where Christianity is quite strong, but the sad truth of the matter is that over here in Europe people are embarrassed to say that they're religious for fear of being laughed at or lambasted. It is almost regarded as being a little backward.
Cam it almost seems as if people here are afraid to claim their faith as well. It's the guys slamming science down their throat that belittles their faith. I think it's wrong. I would say nearly half my friends are "non-believers" aging from 25-35, yet people like my father read from the bible every morning. I think it is more of a generation thing rather than locations.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-02-26 11:34:33
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6505|Northern California

CameronPoe wrote:

It might be hard to believe for IRONCHEF, with him being from America where Christianity is quite strong, but the sad truth of the matter is that over here in Europe people are often embarrassed to say that they're religious for fear of being laughed at or lambasted. It is almost regarded as being a little backward or naive. In Ireland - one of the strongest bastions of the Catholic faith (until recently) - this year only ONE priest is going to be ordained in the whole of the country. There is talk of importing priests from Africa to get around the impending shortfall.
No, it's not hard to believe.  I fully understand that at least "Christianity" is still somewhat popular here while it flounders in popularity in Europe.  I would estimate that the trend of not being religious here is simply following the trend you've mentioned is prevalent in Europe.

In my gest earlier, I had mentioned that it is replacing smoking as the new "cool" thing which is fitting since prior to this theme in American high schools, it was very cool to be religious and chaste etc..if at least in word and appearance.  I did not mean to imply that high school trend internationally.
2007-02-26 11:36:44
jonsimon
Member
+224|6510

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

It might be hard to believe for IRONCHEF, with him being from America where Christianity is quite strong, but the sad truth of the matter is that over here in Europe people are embarrassed to say that they're religious for fear of being laughed at or lambasted. It is almost regarded as being a little backward.
Cam it almost seems as if people here are afraid to claim their faith as well. It's the guys slamming science down their throat that belittles their faith. I think it's wrong. I would say nearly half my friends are "non-believers" aging from 25-35, yet people like my father read from the bible every morning. I think it is more of a generation thing rather than locations.
I don't really agree. In my life no one really cares about religion. Some people practice it, some people don't, some people do one thing, some people do another. It's possible the youth in Dearborn and the surrounding areas are somehow more nonchalant about religion because of the Arab population, though I doubt the effect would be significant.

Last edited by jonsimon (2007-02-26 11:36:59)

2007-02-26 11:39:13
EVieira
Member
+105|6493|Lutenblaag, Molvania
Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with proving the bible is wrong. It has to with either not believing in god or believing that there is no god. Anyway you put it, it is also a belief. But allot of atheists seem to miss that, which makes them look alot more lost than anything else...

Kamrion was right on, though. Many of the atheists, agnostics, etc, here seem to be trying to convert you. Pretty ironic...

Last edited by EVieira (2007-02-26 11:42:05)

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-02-26 11:39:17
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6615|132 and Bush

jonsimon wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

It might be hard to believe for IRONCHEF, with him being from America where Christianity is quite strong, but the sad truth of the matter is that over here in Europe people are embarrassed to say that they're religious for fear of being laughed at or lambasted. It is almost regarded as being a little backward.
Cam it almost seems as if people here are afraid to claim their faith as well. It's the guys slamming science down their throat that belittles their faith. I think it's wrong. I would say nearly half my friends are "non-believers" aging from 25-35, yet people like my father read from the bible every morning. I think it is more of a generation thing rather than locations.
I don't really agree. In my life no one really cares about religion. Some people practice it, some people don't, some people do one thing, some people do another. It's possible the youth in Dearborn and the surrounding areas are somehow more nonchalant about religion because of the Arab population, though I doubt the effect would be significant.
It's all relevant to individual experiences I guess. I can only speak of my own.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-02-26 11:41:31
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6575

CameronPoe wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

Goes to show there's no such thing as an atheist.  If you are an athiest, you shouldn't know so much about God, or the lack thereof.  You should keep to the things you know...not things you are professing to not know.  But as it is, most athiests seem to know more about religion than those professing to live one.
I was raised as a Catholic, what was I gonna do: ask my parents to 'stop with the indocrination please' at age 3? Not to mention that the Vatican funds the Irish primary school system - not really much chance of escaping Catholicism now was there?
"You can lose faith in everything except God and you lose nothing. But if you lose faith in God you've lost everything."- unknown
2007-02-26 11:42:22
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6615|132 and Bush

EVieira wrote:

Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with proving the bible is wrong. It has to with either not believing in god or believing that there is no god. Anyway you put it, it is also a belief. But allot of atheists seem to miss that, which makes them look alot more lost than anything else...
Ah.. but you see this is the battle we find ourselves in. Some people find it hard to allow another view in without comparing it to their own and considering it an attack. Saying how you feel without trying to convince others to believe the same is a possibility that eludes many.

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-02-26 11:42:56)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-02-26 11:45:44
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6570

rawls2 wrote:

"You can lose faith in everything except God and you lose nothing. But if you lose faith in God you've lost everything."- unknown
Well speaking from experience, I haven't lost jackshit. My life is neither better nor worse than it was before I abandoned any kind of belief in a hypothetical higher being. I am more content in that my mind no longer has to reconcile illogical concepts and doctrine with logic, reality and the world I see before me with my own two eyes.
2007-02-26 11:46:32
EVieira
Member
+105|6493|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Kmarion wrote:

EVieira wrote:

Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with proving the bible is wrong. It has to with either not believing in god or believing that there is no god. Anyway you put it, it is also a belief. But allot of atheists seem to miss that, which makes them look alot more lost than anything else...
Ah.. but you see this is the battle we find ourselves in. Some people find it hard to allow another view in without comparing it to their own and considering it an attack. Saying how you feel without trying to convince others to believe the same is a possibility that eludes many.
Eludes many, but only those weak of faith. And I'm including religious, atheists, agnostics, whatever. When you truly believe in something, through faith, facts, personal experiences, or other, you don't need to convince others to feel secured in your own belief. You have faith.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-02-26 11:47:37
Fen321
Member
+54|6512|Singularity
Faith in what exactly are you referring to?
2007-02-26 11:48:33
EVieira
Member
+105|6493|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Fen321 wrote:

Faith in what exactly are you referring to?
Your personal belief, whatever it may be
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-02-26 11:49:08
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6615|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

"You can lose faith in everything except God and you lose nothing. But if you lose faith in God you've lost everything."- unknown
Well speaking from experience, I haven't lost jackshit. My life is neither better nor worse than it was before I abandoned any kind of belief in a hypothetical higher being. I am more content in that my mind no longer has to reconcile illogical concepts and doctrine with logic, reality and the world I see before me with my own two eyes.
Awww Cam you bit. Rawls obviously didn't get the point of the OP.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-02-26 11:49:16
jonsimon
Member
+224|6510

Kmarion wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Cam it almost seems as if people here are afraid to claim their faith as well. It's the guys slamming science down their throat that belittles their faith. I think it's wrong. I would say nearly half my friends are "non-believers" aging from 25-35, yet people like my father read from the bible every morning. I think it is more of a generation thing rather than locations.
I don't really agree. In my life no one really cares about religion. Some people practice it, some people don't, some people do one thing, some people do another. It's possible the youth in Dearborn and the surrounding areas are somehow more nonchalant about religion because of the Arab population, though I doubt the effect would be significant.
It's all relevant to individual experiences I guess. I can only speak of my own.
Yeah, unfortunantly we here at DST don't have the means to make a comprehensive nation-wide study.
2007-02-26 11:49:44
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6575

CameronPoe wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

"You can lose faith in everything except God and you lose nothing. But if you lose faith in God you've lost everything."- unknown
Well speaking from experience, I haven't lost jackshit. My life is neither better nor worse than it was before I abandoned any kind of belief in a hypothetical higher being. I am more content in that my mind no longer has to reconcile illogical concepts and doctrine with logic, reality and the world I see before me with my own two eyes.
You won't know if your life was better or not till the day your dying and you look back and say "Life was good, I can die with no regrets."
2007-02-26 11:50:14
Fen321
Member
+54|6512|Singularity

EVieira wrote:

Fen321 wrote:

Faith in what exactly are you referring to?
Your personal belief, whatever it may be
oh, but isn't that the crux of it all....its a belief therefore a baseless assumption.
2007-02-26 11:51:08
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6570

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

"You can lose faith in everything except God and you lose nothing. But if you lose faith in God you've lost everything."- unknown
Well speaking from experience, I haven't lost jackshit. My life is neither better nor worse than it was before I abandoned any kind of belief in a hypothetical higher being. I am more content in that my mind no longer has to reconcile illogical concepts and doctrine with logic, reality and the world I see before me with my own two eyes.
Awww Cam you bit. Rawls obviously didn't get the point of the OP.
It wasn't an attack on anyone else's beliefs but rather a statement of my situation, but I see what you're getting at. This thread is not the forum in which to open up a 'here's what I think', 'well, this is what I think' tit-for-tat postathon. I won't respond to further flame-bait (although I'm sorely tempted after seeing rawls response...).

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-02-26 11:52:03)

2007-02-26 11:52:24
jonsimon
Member
+224|6510

EVieira wrote:

Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with proving the bible is wrong. It has to with either not believing in god or believing that there is no god. Anyway you put it, it is also a belief. But allot of atheists seem to miss that, which makes them look alot more lost than anything else...

Kamrion was right on, though. Many of the atheists, agnostics, etc, here seem to be trying to convert you. Pretty ironic...
Most atheism. There is actually a group of 'super-atheists' I believe called the "New Atheists"(?) that believe in the active conversion of agnostics and non-practicing christians (and muslims etc) to open atheism. There's an interesting article about them in on of last year's issues of wired. They seem to be a pretty small minority of just university types/writers though.
2007-02-26 11:53:55
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6575

Kmarion wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

"You can lose faith in everything except God and you lose nothing. But if you lose faith in God you've lost everything."- unknown
Well speaking from experience, I haven't lost jackshit. My life is neither better nor worse than it was before I abandoned any kind of belief in a hypothetical higher being. I am more content in that my mind no longer has to reconcile illogical concepts and doctrine with logic, reality and the world I see before me with my own two eyes.
Awww Cam you bit. Rawls obviously didn't get the point of the OP.
I get the point. I just heard that saying the other day and couldn't resist. I have never pushed religion on anyone only when it was relevant. BTW, agree with you totally that being atheist is fad, a lifestyle if you wish that seems more popular today than ever. Off topic, when I was just out of high school the fad was being bi-sexual-go figure.
2007-02-26 11:54:05
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6505|Northern California
kmarion,

good thread.  sorry for bringing my typical stlye of debate to it.  I"m impressed by the various responses and judging from the acceleration of religious topics over the past 2 months or so, it's easy to see religion is on the minds of many, if not most. 

I would add something else to religious debate that I haven't seen mentioned.  One thing that's very much missed in religious debate is that religion is NOT a scholastic, academic, or easily defined topic that can be measured for what it's worth except by the individual and their OWN faculties to measure it.  And since pretty much everyone measures their religious or non-religious beliefs on "truths" "facts" or other influences not of their own procurement, it becomes a misunderstood debate imo.  For example, I've learned personally of the things I believe in throughout my life because I'm aware that I alone am accountable for them...well, most of them.  But when you have people, for example some high school aged kid, who is soooo heavily influenced by his friends/peers/parents and various media sources (games, print, news, etc) that says they're atheist, or they're christian...you just have to laugh when you hear them defend their adopted belief that hasn't an ounce of support by their actions. 

For those who hate on me for my opinions, please note that I have openly disgraced professed "christians" as equally as I've made fun of atheists I've known who have baseless belief structures.  Actually, I've railed on american "christian" people as being some of the most unchristian people I've ever seen.  not that this is important since our opinions are protected and honored as such on these forums!
2007-02-26 11:59:10
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6544|Global Command

EVieira wrote:

Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with proving the bible is wrong. It has to with either not believing in god or believing that there is no god. Anyway you put it, it is also a belief. But allot of atheists seem to miss that, which makes them look alot more lost than anything else...

Kamrion was right on, though. Many of the atheists, agnostics, etc, here seem to be trying to convert you. Pretty ironic...
And what do agnostics try to get you to believe?

That there is no rational sense in believing. Perhaps being religious is a enviromental thing, that is, a thing born of many people gathering together, needing guidance.

Perhaps we postulate that it is a colossal waste of energy, and a argument in search of a point. How many people in just the last ten years had their lifes extinguished by some true believer? Too many. A rational person can look at a vial of medicine and determine that drinking too much may be bad, and therefor keep it out of the reach of children. Religion should be like that.
2007-02-26 11:59:39
EVieira
Member
+105|6493|Lutenblaag, Molvania

Fen321 wrote:

EVieira wrote:

Fen321 wrote:

Faith in what exactly are you referring to?
Your personal belief, whatever it may be
oh, but isn't that the crux of it all....its a belief therefore a baseless assumption.
They may be baseless to you, but not to the person who belives. What the OP very well pointed out is that others peoples beliefs (referring to religious beliefs) must be respected, and I totally agree with that.

BTW, belief does not mean baseless assumption. Allot of people believe in the Big Bang theory, but it is far from being baseless. But it is nevertheless a belief, since it has yet to be completely proven. Hence the term theory.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-02-26 12:01:40
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6596|SE London

IRONCHEF wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

Wow!  Maybe I'm quite ignorant, but where would you have learned such a number?  Do atheists all band together and keep registered as such?  Last I heard, 95% of the world population believes in a supreme being.  So if there's 6 billion people in the world and 1.1b of them don't believe in a supreme being.  As for that 95% stat I've always heard, I would guess it's probably not accurate.  Speaking as a christian, it is prophesied in our scriptural works that in the last days, that divide between believers and unbelievers would grow considerably.
You're right there. Sort of. Atheists comprise between 4 and 5% of the worlds population, with approximately a further 10% being unreligious.

1.1 billion is right out.
Not arguing, but would you have a source for that number?  Hard to believe that there's as many atheists as there are Muslims.  It's not that I don't believe that number, but it would give room for greater debate as to why there's so many atheists.  Thanks.
What?

That equates to about 300 and something million (based on a global population of 6.5 billion). Not 1.1 billion, that was my whole point.

There are about 1.5 billion Muslims, which is far more.

I don't understand what you're disputing here.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2007-02-26 12:03:41)

2007-02-26 12:05:05
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6570

rawls2 wrote:

I get the point. I just heard that saying the other day and couldn't resist. I have never pushed religion on anyone only when it was relevant. BTW, agree with you totally that being atheist is fad, a lifestyle if you wish that seems more popular today than ever. Off topic, when I was just out of high school the fad was being bi-sexual-go figure.
I hardly think atheism is a fad. I am an atheist and I'm a 27 year old, highly educated, worldy-wise person. There are many like me and the number is growing here in Europe. I do agree that peer pressure will bring an influence to bear on young impressionable minds and that atheism is in the ascendancy in this regard but to dismiss all atheists with that argument is ridiculous to say the least.

We are just seeing the intellectual progression predicted by Sigmund Freud in his essay 'Religion: The Future of an Illusion'.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-02-26 12:06:42)

2007-02-26 12:05:23
EVieira
Member
+105|6493|Lutenblaag, Molvania

ATG wrote:

EVieira wrote:

Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with proving the bible is wrong. It has to with either not believing in god or believing that there is no god. Anyway you put it, it is also a belief. But allot of atheists seem to miss that, which makes them look alot more lost than anything else...

Kamrion was right on, though. Many of the atheists, agnostics, etc, here seem to be trying to convert you. Pretty ironic...
And what do agnostics try to get you to believe?

That there is no rational sense in believing. Perhaps being religious is a enviromental thing, that is, a thing born of many people gathering together, needing guidance.

Perhaps we postulate that it is a colossal waste of energy, and a argument in search of a point. How many people in just the last ten years had their lifes extinguished by some true believer? Too many. A rational person can look at a vial of medicine and determine that drinking too much may be bad, and therefor keep it out of the reach of children. Religion should be like that.
True, ATG, I guess I need to complement my post. Allot of "church-goers" are hypocrites, studying the bible and listening to the preacher but inside are as rotten and corrupted as any. Terrorist use peoples ignorance to manipulate people and say they should blow themselves up to go to "heaven". These are truly much more lost than any atheist or agnostic desperate to prove Noah's Ark never existed.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-02-26 12:06:34
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6505|Northern California
I think people take upon themselves religion for many different reasons.  Some just like happy people around them, some like to "belong," some think one church's building is more impressive than another church's building, some want to belong to the most populated church, some the smallest, some based on how much they can get away with, some based on how strict the code is.  But every now and then, you get the seekers of truth...those that ask the real life questions of "why am I here, where am i going?" etc.  some avoid religious people and simply ponder the idea of a supreme being, maybe talk to it, maybe act according to the feelings they get.  Some of those people then advance their beliefs by thinking they need to "investigate" the doctrines of various religious bodies so as to pick which one best coincides with their feelings and personal understandings of what religion is. 

All of these people mentioned above come from every type of environment, every country, and come from families with every religious indoctrination.  POint being, EVERYONE asks those questions, but not all at the same time..hence the varying degree of religious thought and presumably non-religious thought.

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