Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7117|Tampa Bay Florida
If you a D+ST regular, you might've been noticing a lot of trash talk about American politics, especially in the last 6 months (because of the election, I guess).  Most of the time it's people criticizing the 2 party system, which I think is a legit, but overused argument.

My question is : Are things REALLY that bad?  I mean, sure, things would probably be a lot better with 3 or 4 major political parties, but the fact is, Democrats and Republicans are about as diverse and complex as liberals and conservatives.  A conservative Democrat is often more conservative than a liberal Republican (yeah, they have some).  It seems like sometimes people forget that we do have a process in our elections, and you can even choose to not vote at all if you want to. 

Maybe instead of asking why there are only 2 major parties in the first place, we should be asking "Why haven't the other minority parties gained more popularity?".  I know money is an issue, but if there was truly such a great party that was seperate from the 2 major parties we have today, we would've seen it by now.  Maybe the reason we only have 2 parties is because all of the other parties can't get their sh*t together.

But if you actually look at politicians in an open-minded way, you'll see that they aren't split down the line into Dems of Reps.  For example, Hillary sometimes seems shes in a totally different party than Obama.  They agree on a lot of things, but it's just their general attitude that really seperates them.  And what about the 17 or so Republicans who voted against the surge?  Are you really going to tell me they're the exact same as all the others because they're in the same party?

I think we have more options and more freedom in our election process than we give ourselves credit for.  If there was a magic candidate who had a solution to everything, we'd have seen him or her by now.  Again, there's a reason we're stuck with 2 parties in the first place.

That's all I have to say.  Thank god we can be independents, right?
Blehm98
conservative hatemonger
+150|6890|meh-land
What happened is there is no party that is conservative leaning but powerful.  Both the republicans and the democrats are left of center, which is why people complain about how there are only two parties.  They can pick the candidate that is closer to their beliefs than the other candidate and vote for that one, but neither candidate is really someone they want in office.
JimmyBotswana
Member
+82|7013|Montreal

Blehm98 wrote:

What happened is there is no party that is conservative leaning but powerful.  Both the republicans and the democrats are left of center.
uh, what?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

Blehm98 wrote:

What happened is there is no party that is conservative leaning but powerful.  Both the republicans and the democrats are left of center, which is why people complain about how there are only two parties.  They can pick the candidate that is closer to their beliefs than the other candidate and vote for that one, but neither candidate is really someone they want in office.
Left of center?  Are you nuts?  The last 2 decades have shown that even the Democrats are getting conservative.

About the only things that are left-leaning right now are the public's perception of marijuana, both party's handling of immigration, and the big government politics of things like Social Security.

Everything else has been leaning to the right....

Last edited by Turquoise (2007-02-24 19:52:41)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6956|Global Command
In part because of the comities. Nancy Pelosi wields her power ( before she became speaker of the house ) by  chairing different appropriation boards.

Yes, our system is bad.
The two party system gives us every four year two shitty choices.


The only redeeming quality is that once in a while you get a good president like Reagan.
Mr.Pieeater
Member
+116|7051|Cherry Pie
American Politics exhaust me.  Everyone is corrupted and it sucks.  Thats life though.  Too bad the country voted the dems in over the war...  They don't even have a plan other than leave and lose.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7117|Tampa Bay Florida

Blehm98 wrote:

What happened is there is no party that is conservative leaning but powerful.  Both the republicans and the democrats are left of center, which is why people complain about how there are only two parties.  They can pick the candidate that is closer to their beliefs than the other candidate and vote for that one, but neither candidate is really someone they want in office.
It could also be argued both parties are right from center.  It all depends on your definition of center in the first place........
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7117|Tampa Bay Florida

ATG wrote:

In part because of the comities. Nancy Pelosi wields her power ( before she became speaker of the house ) by  chairing different appropriation boards.

Yes, our system is bad.
The two party system gives us every four year two shitty choices.


The only redeeming quality is that once in a while you get a good president like Reagan.
But the fact is, it's not a system.  There is no rule saying that there can only be 2 parties.
13rin
Member
+977|6906

Turquoise wrote:

Blehm98 wrote:

What happened is there is no party that is conservative leaning but powerful.  Both the republicans and the democrats are left of center, which is why people complain about how there are only two parties.  They can pick the candidate that is closer to their beliefs than the other candidate and vote for that one, but neither candidate is really someone they want in office.
Left of center?  Are you nuts?  The last 2 decades have shown that even the Democrats are getting conservative.

About the only things that are left-leaning right now are the public's perception of marijuana, both party's handling of immigration, and the big government politics of things like Social Security.

Everything else has been leaning to the right....
Um. How so?  Look at Arnold.  Pro abortion.  Pro gun control. Pro gay marriage.  How about Giuliani ?  Same as Arnold.  Then look at Hillary.  Jesus -she is a fucking socialist.  If anyting, I'd claim that the Republicans have drifted left, as the left has gone off the deep end.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6821|The Gem Saloon
in his parting speech george washington warned everyone about political parties.
the people that wrote the constitution did not envision this clusterfuck.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|7117|Tampa Bay Florida

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Um. How so?  Look at Arnold.  Pro abortion.  Pro gun control. Pro gay marriage.  How about Giuliani ?  Same as Arnold.  Then look at Hillary.  Jesus -she is a fucking socialist.  If anyting, I'd claim that the Republicans have drifted left, as the left has gone off the deep end.
Arnold and Giuliani are in a minority of Republicans.  Both New York and California vote Democrat every year.  They're far from the mainstream of other republicans.
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|7099|Colorado
The problem is our system of government does not allow for people of integrity to rise.
Obama is the only one to catch my eye so far, but I'm sure they will drag out his corruption into the open as well.
It's a sad state of things but most people are their own destroyers.

Last edited by TrollmeaT (2007-03-07 22:52:17)

BVC
Member
+325|7122
Lookin in from the outside, I'd have to see you're challenged as much by monetary factors as you are by lack of choice.  It seems that an awful lot of money is thrown round come election time in the states, almost to the detriment of democracy at times.  Perhaps realistic spending caps and controls could help?
Superslim
BF2s Frat Brother
+211|7119|Calgary
Endless political chat is a function of declining or nonexistent sexual pleasure.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6832|North Carolina

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Blehm98 wrote:

What happened is there is no party that is conservative leaning but powerful.  Both the republicans and the democrats are left of center, which is why people complain about how there are only two parties.  They can pick the candidate that is closer to their beliefs than the other candidate and vote for that one, but neither candidate is really someone they want in office.
Left of center?  Are you nuts?  The last 2 decades have shown that even the Democrats are getting conservative.

About the only things that are left-leaning right now are the public's perception of marijuana, both party's handling of immigration, and the big government politics of things like Social Security.

Everything else has been leaning to the right....
Um. How so?  Look at Arnold.  Pro abortion.  Pro gun control. Pro gay marriage.  How about Giuliani ?  Same as Arnold.  Then look at Hillary.  Jesus -she is a fucking socialist.  If anyting, I'd claim that the Republicans have drifted left, as the left has gone off the deep end.
Hillary is actually a relatively conservative Democrat when it comes to foreign policy and economics.  Her husband was the same.

Arnold is the governor of one of the most liberal states in the country, and Guiliani was the mayor of one of the most liberal cities in the U.S.  So, you can't really judge either of them in terms of the typical Republican.

A better assessment of politics in America comes from the collective actions of both parties at the federal level.  Both Democrats and Republicans have served an economically conservative agenda of so-called free trade and outsourcing over the last 2 decades.  This is NOT a liberal movement.

In addition to this, interventionism (which is now a conservative view) and the pro-life movement have become more popular in America than in most previous decades.  So, in general, America is becoming more conservative in economics, foreign policy, and in several key social issues.

There are still liberal trends as well (like the growing dissent against the death penalty and the handling of illegal immigration), but most of these are outweighed by the conservatism shown in other areas.

To put things in perspective, Nixon created the EPA and pulled us out of a war as president.  Both his foreign policies and environmental views would be considered liberal by today's standards, and he was a conservative in those days (obviously).
alpinestar
Member
+304|7023|New York City baby.
Short answer YES
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7195
lobbyists are a cancer on all politics, not just North America.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6988
Most or all democrats I have heard have been, at best, to the left hand side of right-wing.  Republicans are just further right.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7028|132 and Bush

All politics are "really that bad". America is under the microscope more.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
oChaos.Haze
Member
+90|6865

Turquoise wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Left of center?  Are you nuts?  The last 2 decades have shown that even the Democrats are getting conservative.

About the only things that are left-leaning right now are the public's perception of marijuana, both party's handling of immigration, and the big government politics of things like Social Security.

Everything else has been leaning to the right....
Um. How so?  Look at Arnold.  Pro abortion.  Pro gun control. Pro gay marriage.  How about Giuliani ?  Same as Arnold.  Then look at Hillary.  Jesus -she is a fucking socialist.  If anyting, I'd claim that the Republicans have drifted left, as the left has gone off the deep end.
Hillary is actually a relatively conservative Democrat when it comes to foreign policy and economics.  Her husband was the same.

Arnold is the governor of one of the most liberal states in the country, and Guiliani was the mayor of one of the most liberal cities in the U.S.  So, you can't really judge either of them in terms of the typical Republican.

A better assessment of politics in America comes from the collective actions of both parties at the federal level.  Both Democrats and Republicans have served an economically conservative agenda of so-called free trade and outsourcing over the last 2 decades.  This is NOT a liberal movement.

In addition to this, interventionism (which is now a conservative view) and the pro-life movement have become more popular in America than in most previous decades.  So, in general, America is becoming more conservative in economics, foreign policy, and in several key social issues.

There are still liberal trends as well (like the growing dissent against the death penalty and the handling of illegal immigration), but most of these are outweighed by the conservatism shown in other areas.

To put things in perspective, Nixon created the EPA and pulled us out of a war as president.  Both his foreign policies and environmental views would be considered liberal by today's standards, and he was a conservative in those days (obviously).
Yeah pretty crazy that Nixon might be the most liberal president we've had in the last 35 years.  He passed more (liberal) laws than Clinton, that's for sure.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6988

Kmarion wrote:

All politics are "really that bad". America is under the microscope more.
I disagree.  Strongly.
mcminty
Moderating your content for the Australian Govt.
+879|7148|Sydney, Australia
Yes, it's that bad.

I think the 2 party system leaves a political arena where the views of people become too polarised. There is no middle ground. That's just bad.


Also, the corruption involved in american politics, including the partial rigging of the first GB election (for the state of florida), and the conflicts of intrest that many influencial politicians have with major companies. I don't like how energy companies lobby to politicians, playing on their greed just to turn a buck (and fuck the world up some more).


Yes, it's that bad.

Mcminty.
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|7073
Yes, it really is that bad. A two party system is just an excuse for people to be lazy about politics.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6794|Columbus, Ohio

Bubbalo wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

All politics are "really that bad". America is under the microscope more.
I disagree.  Strongly.
Do explain.  Strongly

Last edited by usmarine2007 (2007-02-26 07:22:43)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6982
I don't think the American political system is that bad. Everyone has their democratic choice and can vote for whoever they want.

The problem is the electorate themselves, the politicians themselves and the fact that big money prevents elections from being truly pluralistic.

The problem with the electorate is that they won't vote for a third party because they see it as a 'wasted vote', given that they believe the system to be a 'two party' system which they propagate and perpetuate by continuing to vote along the traditional party lines.

In USA people need money to get elected. Lots of it. You ain't going to see no well-meaning hobo in the senate. So basically - only rich people can go up for election or people who can procure lots of money. What this means is that politicians asses are owned by their patrons and the lobby groups that fund them. So politicians do not have the electorate's interests at heart - they are only loyal to their backers, which is often counter to the interests of the electorate. Big money is not going to back a third party because they, like the electorate see that as throwing money at a lost cause.

The politicians themselves are at fault for thinking with their pockets and not with their morals or principles.

The same goes in most countries but the larger the country the worse the situation is and the USA seems to be pretty bad with respect to problems I've mentioned. Russia is probably worse again.

Personally I think a cap on election expenditure should be enforced in all countries to ensure equality between the various candidates. Money seems to be ruining democracy.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-02-26 07:58:42)

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