No....it does not. Depending on what country you are in determines how much religion you can "display"Bubbalo wrote:
Why? Why should a religious institution be expected to pay homage to a state. Religion transcends national boundaries, and it's beliefs transcend this plain of existence.cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:
How about Tax them if they don't wave the flag? On ALL religious buildings.
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I thought Australia was formally a Christian nation =/
Uh.............allow me to clarify.usmarine2007 wrote:
No....it does not. Depending on what country you are in determines how much religion you can "display"Bubbalo wrote:
Why? Why should a religious institution be expected to pay homage to a state. Religion transcends national boundaries, and it's beliefs transcend this plain of existence.cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:
How about Tax them if they don't wave the flag? On ALL religious buildings.
If you believe in a god (any god), then worship of that god comes before patriotism, because his/her power and importance are beyond that which exists in the physical realm. Further, their existence stretches into the beyond, whereas your country's does not.
To a degree, yes. But having said that, if we are to argue that we are better than other nations, we should not have any official religion.cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:
I thought Australia was formally a Christian nation =/
What world do you live in?
Do you take issue with my statement?
All of your statements. How about all these religious fools just pray in their bedrooms and stop making a show of everything?
It sounds to me like Australia should instead just limit their immigration more. Leave the mosques alone, and deal with the ethnic conflict through more reasonable means.<BoTM>J_Aero wrote:
The idea was originally proposed by the Lebanese Muslim Association and other senior Australian Islamic clerics, including Ameer Ali, former head of the Prime Minister's Muslim reference group. It has now attracted the attention and backing of NSW Premier Morris Iemma and PM, John Howard.
The idea is centered upon the hope that flying the flag would symbolise 'Integration' and 'Pride' at being both Australian, and Muslim. The Lebanese Muslim Association says the plan should become mandatory for all new churches, mosques and other places of worship built, but that it should be funded by the Federal Government. The spokesman from the Islamic Friendship Association, Keysar Trad, said "There is no nationality before God", that this would politicise places of worship, and that there was no need for such a measure.
I personally think the plan reeks of political symbolism, and a poor attempt to cover over the cracks that are appearing between some in the Muslim community and what could loosely be called "mainstream Australia". The rule of law in Australia will always come into conflict with the more extreme branches of Islam, like Wahaabism, which dictates that listening to music and looking at photographs or drawings containing people are forbidden.
Mandating the flying of the Australian Flag at places of worship is something that would fail to develop the strong ties needed between Australians of all nationalities. Having an Australian flag flying over a church, or mosque or synagogue, has no real effect on the people that worship inside.
News Sources:
Radio National:
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/news/s … 850364.htm
SMH:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/ … 74015.html
I know of one Lebanese Australian on this forum who seems pretty reasonable to me, so hopefully, he's more representative of his community than the extremists are.
All my to rephrase:usmarine2007 wrote:
All of your statements. How about all these religious fools just pray in their bedrooms and stop making a show of everything?
Why do you take issue with my statement, and/or with which part?
*cough*Baxter*cough*Turquoise wrote:
It sounds to me like Australia should instead just limit their immigration more. Leave the mosques alone, and deal with the ethnic conflict through more reasonable means.
Haven't you heard? Lebanese people are baby-raping suicide bombers .Turquoise wrote:
I know of one Lebanese Australian on this forum who seems pretty reasonable to me, so hopefully, he's more representative of his community than the extremists are.
You're referring to the Iranian refugees, correct?Bubbalo wrote:
*cough*Baxter*cough*Turquoise wrote:
It sounds to me like Australia should instead just limit their immigration more. Leave the mosques alone, and deal with the ethnic conflict through more reasonable means.
You know, I was trying to support the notion that most Lebanese immigrants aren't extremists, but for some reason, you've decided to ridicule me for it. Are you suggesting my feelings are wrong?Bubbalo wrote:
Haven't you heard? Lebanese people are baby-raping suicide bombers .Turquoise wrote:
I know of one Lebanese Australian on this forum who seems pretty reasonable to me, so hopefully, he's more representative of his community than the extremists are.
Any refugees tend to be held for 3 years (or more). Including young children.Turquoise wrote:
You're referring to the Iranian refugees, correct?Bubbalo wrote:
*cough*Baxter*cough*Turquoise wrote:
It sounds to me like Australia should instead just limit their immigration more. Leave the mosques alone, and deal with the ethnic conflict through more reasonable means.
Forgive me, I wasn't ridiculing you, but rather Australians (or, a group of Australians who are hopefully just a vocal minority).Turquoise wrote:
You know, I was trying to support the notion that most Lebanese immigrants aren't extremists, but for some reason, you've decided to ridicule me for it. Are you suggesting my feelings are wrong?Bubbalo wrote:
Haven't you heard? Lebanese people are baby-raping suicide bombers .Turquoise wrote:
I know of one Lebanese Australian on this forum who seems pretty reasonable to me, so hopefully, he's more representative of his community than the extremists are.
Thanks for the apology, and I know what you mean.Bubbalo wrote:
Any refugees tend to be held for 3 years (or more). Including young children.Turquoise wrote:
You're referring to the Iranian refugees, correct?Bubbalo wrote:
*cough*Baxter*cough*Turquoise wrote:
It sounds to me like Australia should instead just limit their immigration more. Leave the mosques alone, and deal with the ethnic conflict through more reasonable means.Forgive me, I wasn't ridiculing you, but rather Australians (or, a group of Australians who are hopefully just a vocal minority).Turquoise wrote:
You know, I was trying to support the notion that most Lebanese immigrants aren't extremists, but for some reason, you've decided to ridicule me for it. Are you suggesting my feelings are wrong?Bubbalo wrote:
Haven't you heard? Lebanese people are baby-raping suicide bombers .
I'm sorry to hear about the refugee situation, and honestly, I don't really know how to solve that. I guess my first question is: why do so many people seek out Australia as a refuge? Iran and Lebanon are a long way away from Australia.
Many countries claim to be secular, and Australia is one of those. If the mosque (or any church, synagogue etc.) decides they want to, that is their choice, but it should not be mandatory. That would reduce any meaning it would have.
Compared to Europe or the US they don't.Turquoise wrote:
I'm sorry to hear about the refugee situation, and honestly, I don't really know how to solve that. I guess my first question is: why do so many people seek out Australia as a refuge? Iran and Lebanon are a long way away from Australia.
Having said that: what country between Iran and Australia would you feel happy in? With the possible exception of India, I'd say none.
Good point, but even if I weren't American, I'd aim for America or Canada to immigrate to if I were Iranian or some other Middle Eastern ethnicity. Race relations tend to be better in Canada and America than in Australia or Europe, at least with reference to Muslims.Bubbalo wrote:
Compared to Europe or the US they don't.Turquoise wrote:
I'm sorry to hear about the refugee situation, and honestly, I don't really know how to solve that. I guess my first question is: why do so many people seek out Australia as a refuge? Iran and Lebanon are a long way away from Australia.
Having said that: what country between Iran and Australia would you feel happy in? With the possible exception of India, I'd say none.
Last edited by Turquoise (2007-02-18 11:06:53)
Europe is not afraid of muslims you know, there already are a lot here.Turquoise wrote:
Good point, but even if I weren't American, I'd aim for America or Canada to immigrate to if I were Iranian or some other Middle Eastern ethnicity. Race relations tend to be better in Canada and America than in Australia or Europe, at least with reference to Muslims.Bubbalo wrote:
Compared to Europe or the US they don't.Turquoise wrote:
I'm sorry to hear about the refugee situation, and honestly, I don't really know how to solve that. I guess my first question is: why do so many people seek out Australia as a refuge? Iran and Lebanon are a long way away from Australia.
Having said that: what country between Iran and Australia would you feel happy in? With the possible exception of India, I'd say none.
And there's a big lebanese and iranian community in France.
Last edited by Lost Hope (2007-02-18 11:09:21)
Well, I'm just going by what I've seen in the news. Like, when those riots spread throughout France, I made the assumption that things weren't going so well between the Muslims and the "native" French.Lost Hope wrote:
Europe is not afraid of muslims you know, there already are a lot here.Turquoise wrote:
Good point, but even if I weren't American, I'd aim for America or Canada to immigrate to if I were Iranian or some other Middle Eastern ethnicity. Race relations tend to be better in Canada and America than in Australia or Europe, at least with reference to Muslims.Bubbalo wrote:
Compared to Europe or the US they don't.
Having said that: what country between Iran and Australia would you feel happy in? With the possible exception of India, I'd say none.
And there's a big lebanese and iranian community in France.
The problem with getting to the US is you need a plane: most of those who come to Australia come primarily by boat (hence the term "boat people"). As to why they don't go to Europe, maybe the routes are too clogged?
The problem in Europe is that it's really difficult to be accepted as a refugee, most EU countries are closing the borders even to people who are really in trouble.Turquoise wrote:
Well, I'm just going by what I've seen in the news. Like, when those riots spread throughout France, I made the assumption that things weren't going so well between the Muslims and the "native" French.Lost Hope wrote:
Europe is not afraid of muslims you know, there already are a lot here.Turquoise wrote:
Good point, but even if I weren't American, I'd aim for America or Canada to immigrate to if I were Iranian or some other Middle Eastern ethnicity. Race relations tend to be better in Canada and America than in Australia or Europe, at least with reference to Muslims.
And there's a big lebanese and iranian community in France.
In Belgium, some people where told to leave even when they came from Tchetchenya.
Why not make it easier for immigrants to find work in the EU? That would probably ease some of the tensions.Lost Hope wrote:
The problem in Europe is that it's really difficult to be accepted as a refugee, most EU countries are closing the borders even to people who are really in trouble.Turquoise wrote:
Well, I'm just going by what I've seen in the news. Like, when those riots spread throughout France, I made the assumption that things weren't going so well between the Muslims and the "native" French.Lost Hope wrote:
Europe is not afraid of muslims you know, there already are a lot here.
And there's a big lebanese and iranian community in France.
In Belgium, some people where told to leave even when they came from Tchetchenya.
They are already working, illegaly or not but people are too blind, they don't see that they do the work that no one wants to do. They think that they're gonna steal their job but it won't happen unless they have more experience/diplomas. EU is leaning to the right concerning immigrants and is basically saying "get the fuck out and don't steal our jobs" when the jobs they do are the harder ones and they get badly paid for it.Turquoise wrote:
Why not make it easier for immigrants to find work in the EU? That would probably ease some of the tensions.Lost Hope wrote:
The problem in Europe is that it's really difficult to be accepted as a refugee, most EU countries are closing the borders even to people who are really in trouble.Turquoise wrote:
Well, I'm just going by what I've seen in the news. Like, when those riots spread throughout France, I made the assumption that things weren't going so well between the Muslims and the "native" French.
In Belgium, some people where told to leave even when they came from Tchetchenya.
Last edited by Lost Hope (2007-02-18 11:21:47)
so... Basically, Europe is dealing with Muslims the same way America is dealing with Mexicans?... *looks worried*Lost Hope wrote:
They are already working, illegaly or not but people are too blind, they don't see that they do the work that no one wants to do. They think that they're gonna steal their job but it won't happen unless they have more experience/diplomas. EU is leaning to the right concerning immigrants and is basically saying "get the fuck out and don't steal our jobs" when the jobs they do are the harder ones.Turquoise wrote:
Why not make it easier for immigrants to find work in the EU? That would probably ease some of the tensions.Lost Hope wrote:
The problem in Europe is that it's really difficult to be accepted as a refugee, most EU countries are closing the borders even to people who are really in trouble.
In Belgium, some people where told to leave even when they came from Tchetchenya.
It's quite a royal mess, isn't it?...
Europe is acting the same way as the US, the governments want to close the border and make a "fortress Europe" to stop the immigration (but it should be called migration), mostly the african immigration.Turquoise wrote:
so... Basically, Europe is dealing with Muslims the same way America is dealing with Mexicans?... *looks worried*Lost Hope wrote:
They are already working, illegaly or not but people are too blind, they don't see that they do the work that no one wants to do. They think that they're gonna steal their job but it won't happen unless they have more experience/diplomas. EU is leaning to the right concerning immigrants and is basically saying "get the fuck out and don't steal our jobs" when the jobs they do are the harder ones.Turquoise wrote:
Why not make it easier for immigrants to find work in the EU? That would probably ease some of the tensions.
It's quite a royal mess, isn't it?...
Muslims are just a very small part of the "problem".
But yeah, it's a big mess, mostly because the 27 countries can't agree.
Last edited by Lost Hope (2007-02-18 11:31:44)
Interesting.... I think the irony of all this is that most of Europe is aging out, so it is very necessary for younger immigrants to slowly fill a lot of jobs in Europe, since the Europeans themselves are experiencing lower population growth. Basically, the First World will eventually depend on immigrants almost completely for their labor as its "native" citizens grow elderly and dependent on social programs.Lost Hope wrote:
Europe is acting the same way as the US, the governments want to close the border and make a "fortress Europe" to stop the immigration (but it should be called migration), mostly the african immigration.Turquoise wrote:
so... Basically, Europe is dealing with Muslims the same way America is dealing with Mexicans?... *looks worried*Lost Hope wrote:
They are already working, illegaly or not but people are too blind, they don't see that they do the work that no one wants to do. They think that they're gonna steal their job but it won't happen unless they have more experience/diplomas. EU is leaning to the right concerning immigrants and is basically saying "get the fuck out and don't steal our jobs" when the jobs they do are the harder ones.
It's quite a royal mess, isn't it?...
Muslims are just a very small part of the "problem".
But yeah, it's a big mess.
Hopefully, both America and Europe will see the writing on the wall when it comes to immigration. My only concern is that these countries aren't being selective enough in who they let in. For example, we could probably export millions of Mexicans to Europe to fill these jobs, and there would be less cultural conflict between the "natives" and them than their currently is between Europeans and Muslims. Mexicans are Catholic and would probably find the cultural divide relatively easy to cross in countries like Italy and France. In Spain, it would be even easier for them to assimilate.
Last edited by Turquoise (2007-02-18 11:33:55)
All modernised nations will face the problem of an aging population at some point, and the smart fix is to allow immigration for young families.
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