ATG
Banned
+5,233|6956|Global Command
Story

https://i1.tinypic.com/2lw3f9e.jpg


“There’s no Israeli interest being served by continued American presence in Iraq,” said Mark A. Heller, a Jaffee Center researcher who helped produce the group’s annual “Middle East Strategic Balance” report.
The Bush administration is “simply discredited in the region as a player,” Yossi Alpher said.
I dunno about that last line but as for the notion that we are destabilizing the Middle East I say, duh.
After 9-11 we faced a harsh reality; we had to face Islam, or at least the public face of it as a menace and grim enemy. I'm sorry if this seems upsetting to you, but think about it; 19 whacked out dudes took out the Trade Center, imagine what a few hundred million could do if united. We also had to face the reality that making a parking lot or field of glass out of the area was not realistic. So we turned them against one another.

One of the most profound aspects to me about the whole Middle East war is that, despite all we have done to them, the Sunnis still hate the Shiites more than they hate us. We are using that against them, and while they busy about the business of sectarian killings we will reap the profits from their oil fields.

Pretty fucked up, isn't it?
I don't advocate this, I just see it.

Isn't this a legit strategy?


Direct from the Whitehouse
American Policy In The Middle East Comes Down To A Straightforward Choice.  We can allow the Middle East to continue on the course it was headed before 9/11 – and a generation from now, our children will face a region dominated by terrorist states and radical dictators armed with nuclear weapons.  Or we can rally the world to confront the ideology of hate and give the people of the Middle East a future of hope.  That is the choice America has made.


When terror becomes error.
One aspect of the law of unintended consequences.

Unintended consequences....pffft. I think not.

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Please note that I am libertarian minded and support isolationism. I'm just trying to explain one larger rational, beyond the WMD's, for why we went to Iraq
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6988
A destabilised M.E. is terrorism's best friend.  Think about it: terrorism took hold in Lebanon when it was destabilised, and Iraq, and, whilst Afghanistan had a terrorism friendly government previously, reports suggest that they're making big bucks of of crop in the poorer regions through the depradations of warlords.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6956|Global Command
I agree.
Americas policy choices seem pretty retarded.
We should make ourselves independent of foreign oil, that'd show them
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6988
But you claim terrorism was a reason to go into Iraq when, previously, Saddam was decidedly unfriendly with the groups involved in global terrorism.  Iran would have been a better choice, or Saudi Arabia or Lebanon.  Or, better still, you could have fixed up Iraq first.
BVC
Member
+325|7123

ATG wrote:

I agree.
Americas policy choices seem pretty retarded.
We should make ourselves independent of foreign oil, that'd show them
I've long thought that would be the best way to fuck them up, you buy what 3/4 of the worlds supply?  If they don't have that income they'll be screwed.  They could sell to China, but in the face of less competition for oil they'd extract a lower price.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6956|Global Command

Bubbalo wrote:

But you claim terrorism was a reason to go into Iraq when, previously, Saddam was decidedly unfriendly with the groups involved in global terrorism.  Iran would have been a better choice, or Saudi Arabia or Lebanon.  Or, better still, you could have fixed up Iraq first.
I know longer understand exactly what we are doing in Iraq, or why we are there at all.
I'm sorry Bush lost me along the way.

I'm explaining what I see as it makes sense to me.
OmniDeath
~
+726|7071

https://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k56/Omni_Death/TryAndStopUs.jpg

I most interested in seeing how America's foreign policy and "war on terror" develops with the next presidency....
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6956|Global Command
Indeed.
Blehm98
conservative hatemonger
+150|6890|meh-land
the war on terror will most likely die and all we have done so far will be lost.  We MUST finish our job by 09 or the terrorists will be better off than they started
Jbrar
rawr
+86|6969|Winterpeg, Canada
One of the most profound aspects to me about the whole Middle East war is that, despite all we have done to them, the Sunnis still hate the Shiites more than they hate us.
Some groups of people will always hate or be against other groups of people, it's how our minds work, it's how they're brought up. The majority of the Western world doesn't realize how their cultures and traditions function and how they are taught. I have friends in India like this, they've been taught to not get to "close" to certain groups of people, and for reasons they don't know or would understand.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6988

ATG wrote:

I know longer understand exactly what we are doing in Iraq, or why we are there at all.
Then why do you constantly defend Bush and the invasion of Iraq?
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6956|Global Command
Defend Bush?
I have typed novels saying what a prick he is.

I saw a rational for going to Iraq, but nothing we've done after has made any sense.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6988
Unfortunately it seems to have disappeared, but I think we all remember your thread about the US soldier given and award by Bush.......................
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6956|Global Command

Bubbalo wrote:

Unfortunately it seems to have disappeared, but I think we all remember your thread about the US soldier given and award by Bush.......................
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=60455&p=1

What about it?
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6988
Other than the depths you went to in order to support him?
|BFC|Icenflame
Member
+11|6904|Cape Town - South Africa
Israelis are only putting the spot light on the US because it suites them.. If they where to ever say the the US is destabilizing the Middle East its just because they need a scape goat and an excuse to crack down on Palestinians but thats not on debate here is it!

Look some of us agree with the US policy and some of us don't me being the latter.... In terms of the US using its own oil well I think the US demand out strips the supply by thousands of gallons/litters. Thus the move for the US to secure the oil reserves around the world.

It kinda back fired when the US government tried to get rid of the Chavez in South America because the Anti-American president was out spoken about US foreign policy and threatened to take its oil some where else.

In early 2000 I'm not to sure if any of you remember what the price of Oil was per barrel something like $24 or so a barrel ? now whats the price? $64 odd? thats quite a large increase isn't it?

Now with most of the Oil suppliers or petroleum companies are American they stood to benefit a lot from a destabilized Middle Eastern Region. Unfortunately the affects of a destabilized Middle East is felt else where in the world except America in fact the American people luckily haven't had any "major" effects of the War on Iraq however this turmoil has caused major issues in developing countries in fact it c has had major finical implications to developing countries.

Remember that the Oil is sold in the US currency now at $64 dollars a barrel its pretty steep price for most developing countries and the exchange rate really starts to take effect.

South Africa has been suffering the effects of this war for the past 4 years with constant petrol price increases this effects the entire economy as we all know petrol makes the world go round! In 2000 the average price for petrol was round about  $1.91 for a Gallon apposed to America's price of $1.77 a Gallon our current price is not at $4.23 a gallon and America's are paying about $2.95 a gallon so we are paying double the amount for per gallon than our American counterparts. Now add that to an inflation rate of say about 11% and you can see that it affects us rather drastically in fact as soon as we get petrol hikes our interest rate goes up.

As you can see this vast difference in price causes tremendous stress on our inflation rate and not only in South Africa but these effects are felt in every developing country in the world.
So the destabilization of the Middle East is having wider felt repercussions and those that are suffering are not the Americans but the rest of the world.

Look we all know America has a tremendous amount to gain from spreading its "wings" so to speak but at what price complete and utter alienation from the rest of the world?

As soon as you start pointing fingers and say its the Muslims that are the trouble and forget that there are Christian fanatics and I think America has had the brunt of "crazy suicide Christians " well the most publicized anyway.
JahManRed
wank
+646|7055|IRELAND

ATG wrote:

I dunno about that last line but as for the notion that we are destabilizing the Middle East I say, duh.
After 9-11 we faced a harsh reality; we had to face Islam, or at least the public face of it as a menace and grim enemy. I'm sorry if this seems upsetting to you, but think about it; 19 whacked out dudes took out the Trade Center, imagine what a few hundred million could do if united. We also had to face the reality that making a parking lot or field of glass out of the area was not realistic. So we turned them against one another.
After 9-11 you should have stopped taken a breath and firstly analyzed, why did they attack us? Find the answer to that. Look inwards on your own foreign policies for answers.
Then how did they attack us? And act on homeland security. Tighten immigration, boarders and airport security.
Then ask, why didn't we know they were going to attack us? Start implanting moles and informants through the Islamic fundamentalists.
Yes go into Afghanistan to over throw the harborers of Al Queda. But stay and do it right, not spread yourself too thin.
There was no need to go into Iraqi. Saddam despised Al Queda, he was worried that Al Queda would grow powerful and threaten his own Regine. Bush Co took their eye of the ball. They abandoned their pledge to protect the American people, instead using the Attack as a pretext to invading Iraqi to secure its vast oil reserves. Putting thousands of the people they swore to protect in the firing line. Many reasons for invading Iraqi are slung about. One of which was the fact that Iraqi fired Scud missiles down on Israel during GW1 and was invaded to protect Israel. Israel have now stated that the opposite is in fact the case. The middle east is only big enough for one group of rich westerners to bully the locals.

Reasons to go to war in Iraqi.
Stop the proliferation of WMD's---------------No WMD's factories found.Iran, threatened, started to develop nukes.-----negative.
Stop the 'immanent' use of WMD's.--------------No WMD's found--------negative.
Protect Israel-----------------------------------See above--------------negative.
Free the Iraqi People--------------------------100murders a day, still little water or power-------negative.
Stabilize the region---------------------------Turn on your TV.-------negative.
Get the oil--------------------------------------Being pumped out throughout the conflict---------Positive.

At the end of the day the people dying in Iraqi, American and Iraqi are far removed for the rich white oil men sitting in the clean A/C oval office making the decisions. Decisions which place profit and economics over human life...shame on them.
So are the American foreign policy supporters on these boards finally ready to admit that the single reason for invading Iraqi was to in stow an American friendly government, willing to export its oil?


A few thousand men created havoc in Ireland and the UK for thirty years. The UK government at the start used the same tactics the US is using in Iraqi. All they did was recruit more terrorists and make themselves look extremely bad on the world stage. Snap and Snap!
Counter insurgency, intelligence, informers were all much more successful. But ultimately didn't work either. What did work however was diplomacy. People sat down and talked and concessions were traded on both sides. Yeah it took 15 years but we are nearly there.
The reality of Iraqi and its problems can only be solved over time. There is no quick solution. Throwing more troops in won't work. Being more brutal won't work, flying DC-10's ladened with cash in won't work either.
If the US is serious about freedom and democracy in Iraqi they need to be looking at a 15-20 year plan. Can you imagine congress approving such a plan? I can't, but its the only solution if you look from the Iraqi peo-peoples point of view. So the only thing to do is pull the hell out ASAP. Yes their will be a blood bath, yes governments will be over thrown, yes a dictator will end up back in power, but unless the coalition comes out and openly puts forward some kind of plan that isn't a quick fix to 'their' oil problem, the people will have no confidence in America,UK or the new Iraqi government.

Oh and hopefully the American people will see Israel for what it really is. Ready to switch sides at a moments notice to further her own shady causes. Remember the King David Hotel?
Skorpy-chan
Member
+127|6772|Twyford, UK
An unstable middle east and high oil prices are probably good for the developing world; soon everyone and their mother in places like Africa or Brazil will have cars running on ethanol or cow shit. That will make the oil price either drop with demand, or shoot way up as people try to shaft developed countries.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7028|132 and Bush

Iraq was in fact writing checks to the families of suicide bombers. That would have been a much greater case to take action against Saddam in my mind.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7163|Salt Lake City

Canada has huge oil reservers, but it's shell and sand oils.  The best thing we could do would be to partner with them on ways to extract that oil more cost effictively and environmentally freidly.
Fen321
Member
+54|6925|Singularity
Hey ATG, if we went and attacked Iraq for Oil and previously we had attacked Afghanistan, which we surprisingly want to build a pipeline through, what possible reasons would we then have for invading Iran? I wonder...

Sounds to me like we want a trifecta oil grab here.

Its evident by our lack of foresight in how to handle a post-Saddam Iraq that there was no real merit in the reasons stated to the American public, and to the rest of the world for that matter. Its just an example of the dictatorship that exist within America, its only a matter of time before people realize the seriously flaws within this style of governance.

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