Fen321
Member
+54|6923|Singularity

Stingray24 wrote:

Fen321:
Please provide sources showing anything I posted is false.  I’m not going to waste time posting more links for you to prove the wiki info is true. Do that yourself. 

Waiting until an imminent threat materializes is foolish because by then, it’s far too late.  You honestly support letting a nation like Iran have nukes, when their leader has publicly made threats against other nations in their region?  We should wait until they have weapons grade material and a delivery system before acting?  Glad you’re not in charge of the military.  Israel taking out the ability of Iraq to even get started producing nuclear weapons makes perfect sense.   So does not allowing Iran to acquire them.  Worldwide it’s known Iran is a large sponsor of terrorism.  Even if they had no rocket delivery system (I’m not saying they don't already have one) doesn’t mean they couldn’t sell weapons grade material to other nations or to terrorists.  It’s about prudence, not fear. 

Nearly everyone who has listened to Amedinijad's statements in public agree he's nuts and deluded.  Israel does not export terrorists around the world as Iran and Syria do.  CPoe simply hates Israel and we all know that.  I thought we agreed to keep that bs in the stickied thread.
My dear friend, you fail to grasp concepts of law and order that tend to govern this somewhat crazy international system. If countries such as the U.S. and Israel can take it upon themselves to have preventative attacks and stop any other country from building weapons then you are in a sad sate of illusion of your position in this world. The U.S. is not the world police nor did anyone elect them to be the world police.

You get sources from wikipedia then have the nerve to tell me to disprove it when i can just as easily fabricate anything on the entire site. If i were to ever try to use a source such as wikipedia on any paper/research etc in college i'd fail my course miserably. Simply put its garbage.

Waiting for an imminent threat is what stop other countries from attacking others that don't share the same view as you, don't you see this? Immediate threat means they are coming to get you and its an actual possibility that will be taking place in the present moment hence your allowed to defend yourself and preemptively attack their forces. Otherwise you fall in the the gray area that yields to unabated military action justified by a whimsically usage of the term "preemptive strike" which in reality equates to preventative strikes.

Sure it makes perfect sense to attack countries before they can get an even hand in terms of military strength unfortunately that does not, i repeat does not, make it some how legal under international law. Oh but you argue they attacked on a Sunday therefore its defensive....wtfawk? How do you come to that conclusion?

Sure i support Iran having Nukes, just as much as you support destroying a countries that don't have nukes. If they were to have nuclear weapons right now do you think we would be having this discussion? No, we would be putting it on the back burner just like North Korea. What others don't seem to see is the fact that IRAN is part of the Middle East and as a consequence to their existence in that region they will evidently have more opportunities now, more so than before due to the fall of Iraq and the Taleban in Afghanistan, to push around its weight in the region.

The true bulk of your arguments are support by statements such as worldwide it is know that....
Honestly how can you be that inclusive on such a statement, but if i were to propose that world wide it is know that the United States takes unilateral action and sponsors state terrorism since the 80s you would feel hard pressed to believe me.

Here is the kicker, we know Pakistan has nuclear weapons, we also know now that they let terrorist organization function within the Pakistani/Afghan border why aren't we worried about the possible threat then that terrorist can receive armaments via this option?
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6871|The Land of Scott Walker
If you dispute the facts in 1980 and 1981 that I posted then prove them wrong instead of whining about wiki.
Fen321
Member
+54|6923|Singularity

Stingray24 wrote:

If you dispute the facts in 1980 and 1981 that I posted then prove them wrong instead of whining about wiki.
I'm disputing the source....and your just ignoring the bulk of what I've stated about the difference between preventative and preemptive strikes...

ok, all your sources are now correct...still won't change the main point.
spray_and_pray
Member
+52|6917|Perth. Western Australia

Parker wrote:

spray_and_pray wrote:

Miller wrote:


Stealth allows the thread between life and death for a pilot to stay strong.  The MiG has no hope against a modern US fighter anymore.  There is also the supperior training the US pilots get.  Once the F-22 is put into active military service, there won't be anything that can stand up to it for a long time.
So I guess you are a Russian secret services aircraft designer and know all about their stealth aircraft technology and what they plan to release? Have you ever though that maybe the only reason you don't know about any Russian stealth aircraft is because you aren't in some secret US or Russian organization that knows about it or they have never been detected?

To parker the Mig 29 program was started in the 1980's what you want is a Sukhoi Su-27 or Su-33 both superior or equal to US fighter jets. The Su-30 Russia's alternative to the F-15E has thrust vectoring just like the F22 and can perform a cobra manuever. The F22 is not in service yet and wont be for a bit. You don't know what you are talking about you know about small arms you make knives and go to a pawn shop. Even though you have some sligh association with weapons what you have said so far proves you know nothing about aircraft. Sukhoi and Mig produce some of the best aircraft in the world. Thats why the F-4's had trouble with Mig-21's in Vietnam the Mig-17 was old tech. I beleive your so called invisible jet F117A was shot down by a SA-3 that thing was made in the 1970's or 60's pathetic. The Mig 29 has the capability to take off from dirt strips etc and requires very little maintenance the Russian variant can carry nuclear weapons and all the migs other countries own are Export models. You are comparing the airforce training of Iran to Russia big mistake.

Biggest and strongest submarine ever made was the kursk it was the size of 2 jumbo jets and could take 3 direct torpedo's before sinking. It sunk when a torpedo blew up inside the sub. I have a friend who worked in anti submarine warefare for the US and went down to the Philipenes and was on Patrols off the West Side of the US. Alpha sumbarines pass 100 miles off the US coast in their patrol's this was my friends largest fear the Alpha submarine is one of the fastest there is and could have engaged them from such a range and got away.

Get educated on Russian military equipment other then Kaleshnikov's grand series of weapons and you will see how wrong you are. Saying that Kaleshnikov is the only peice of Russian war technology in the world that is proper is one of the most ignorant thing I have read on these forums and proves how some people are so up themselves they manage to ignore facts and refer an aircraft not yet in service then compare it to something being used for the last 20 years.
yes the kursk was such a wonderful sub, that it carried torpedoes that lead to its demise.....so the sub was nice, but the hydrogen peroxide they used for torpedo fuel just wasnt a good idea.
dont try to lecture me on any weapons son, especially russian. your one of the people that pick facts that work for you and thats fine if thats your style.....oh and i didnt say that kalishnikovs were the ONLY.....i also mentioned early T series MBTs........


we made that country bankrupt based on a weapons program they couldnt compete with among other things.....we are the superior weapons designer because of an economy and society that doesnt hinder our designers.
thanks.


edit; i must say that you attacking my business is probably the last thing in a debate that will make you look credible......lol @ pawnshop.....you couldnt even begin to fathom the price that one of my high end knives go for. my experience with weapons STARTED with three special ops guys giving me the rundown on most small arms of the world and only expanded from there. that was six years ago, and i promise you i have only expanded my knowledge since.
you dont know me, you dont know what i study and what i do in my free time....i think maybe you should stop sucking off russia and take your head out of your ass long enough to see that the problem lies not in the designs, but when they are used............that little story about the kursk has played out with almost every other single piece of military technology to come out of russia, in one form or another.........again, thank you for your time, but your wrong.
Thats right just ignore my whole post and put me up as the bad guy. Calling you a weapons dealer is what you are you make knives not AIRCRAFT. When you wake up and realise the facts you will not be ignorant anymore what you just said makes you look quite stupid. Ok you said I use facts right? Facts are proven things such as Gravity is real. If I speak of facts you must be speaking of theories up proven thing's which may or may not work.

Country bankrupcy? What is the US after a almost 4 year war in Iraq? IRAQ!!! You also picked to ignore the facts of Sukhoi aircraft especially the Su-30 which already uses thrust vectoring. Running over it again you said the only good things the Russians made are the Kaleshnikov's and WW2 era T type tanks. You must still be ignorant after the long post of FACTS and are picking to deny them. Take your head out of your ass. Tell me what the IL-2 was? One of the most succesful medium payload bombers of WW2 made by Ilyushin (Russian) the Mig-3 the Lashin series of aircraft such as the La-5 and La-7. The RPG-7 unguided rocket launcher. The Su-27 which uses canards and has thrust vectoring. The Su-33 Russia's mainland defence aircraft. The latest T version tank.

Continue being ignorant I don't have to argue with you what so ever. I see you are highly Biased and too thick or just cant admit that you posted something wrong. I still cant beleive someone has said something like that. And someone sticks to that. Damn man there is something wrong with that. Enjoy crafting knives your work is good if you could point out where I attacked your proffesion go for it. I said making knives gives you jack shit cred in aircraft. You talked to spec ops? Great but theyr'e not involved with aircraft. I know people active in the Navy and Airforce and they said the exact opposite to you. Maybe you got your head so far up your ass you don't even realise. Cause I see everything clearely and am not highly biased you will even see me from time to time arguing for or agreeing with the opposite side. Such a thing apparently will not happen with you. Quoted "winning an argument on the internet is like coming first in the special Olympics no matter that you have won you are still retarded." And this is where I stop replying.

Pm me if you wish to continue this.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6871|The Land of Scott Walker
I'm not ignoring it, I simply disagree with you.  If we ran our military as you want us to, we'd be exposing ourselves to unnecessary danger.  Hit the enemy before they can hit back is my school of thought.

Remember when Ahmadinejad addressed the UN General Assembly in September 2006?  He said that someone present at the UN told him that a light surrounded him while he was delivering his speech to the General Assembly.   He added that he also sensed it.  "He said when you began with the words 'in the name of God,' I saw that you became surrounded by a light until the end [of the speech]," Ahmadinejad appears to say in the video. "I felt it myself, too. I felt that all of a sudden the atmosphere changed there, and for 27-28 minutes all the leaders did not blink."  Ahmadinejad adds that he is not exaggerating.  "I am not exaggerating when I say they did not blink; it's not an exaggeration, because I was looking," he says. "They were astonished as if a hand held them there and made them sit. It had opened their eyes and ears for the message of the Islamic Republic."

Let's narrow this down.  After reading that, do you think he's nuts or not?
Fen321
Member
+54|6923|Singularity
I suppose you cannot function from one view point on any given topic.

What happens when you present the same concept but place Iran as the country stating it. What then? Do you still agree that they should be allowed the same preventative strikes?

If not then you are a hypocrite, one that is fine with being the top dog just as long as we can kill all others that try to take that position from us.

They could just as easily now have a right to attack Israel and the U.S. based off that mentality.


Sure he is a "nut job" for saying he had a mystic experience.....jee I'm running scared. Needless fear controls your every move...

Answer at least the second half of my entire argument.

We know Pakistan has nuclear weapons, we also know now that they let terrorist organization function within the Pakistani/Afghan border why aren't we worried about the possible threat then that terrorist can receive armaments via this option?
spray_and_pray
Member
+52|6917|Perth. Western Australia

Stingray24 wrote:

I'm not ignoring it, I simply disagree with you.  If we ran our military as you want us to, we'd be exposing ourselves to unnecessary danger.  Hit the enemy before they can hit back is my school of thought.

Remember when Ahmadinejad addressed the UN General Assembly in September 2006?  He said that someone present at the UN told him that a light surrounded him while he was delivering his speech to the General Assembly.   He added that he also sensed it.  "He said when you began with the words 'in the name of God,' I saw that you became surrounded by a light until the end [of the speech]," Ahmadinejad appears to say in the video. "I felt it myself, too. I felt that all of a sudden the atmosphere changed there, and for 27-28 minutes all the leaders did not blink."  Ahmadinejad adds that he is not exaggerating.  "I am not exaggerating when I say they did not blink; it's not an exaggeration, because I was looking," he says. "They were astonished as if a hand held them there and made them sit. It had opened their eyes and ears for the message of the Islamic Republic."

Let's narrow this down.  After reading that, do you think he's nuts or not?
LOL he is nuts having that guy as a president no way. Pre emptive strikes are a bad idea.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6871|The Land of Scott Walker
This is not a zero sum game and you know it, Fen.  Iran does not function under the ideals that the US does and you cannot logically compare the two.  We have only used atomic weapons in WW2 when it was absolutely necessary to prevent huge casualties that would have resulted from invading mainland Japan.  We could have easily vaporized all of Japan if that was our goal.  In contrast, Iran's goal is the complete annihilation of Israel - wiping them off the map by nuclear means.  It is aggressively seeking nuclear weapons to accomplish that goal.  In light of that, it's hard to believe that you still support Iran's nuclear aspirations. 

If a pre-emptive strike was realistic, it should be carried out, not to destroy Iran, but to remove their nuclear developments.  I do not think an air strike would be used in this case because of the underground bunkers and the new AA defenses put in place.  If it can be accomplished by some other means, I support it. 

Pakistan has nukes which I think does worry us and I’m not sure how we will address it.  However, Iran has been more aggressive in it’s stance against Israel and the Western world than has Pakistan.  It would be nice if the rest of the world would get off its rear and help if they too have recognized nations who actively support terrorism.  Unfortunately, the US will have to keep being the world police because few other nations have the balls to step up and take care of business.
Fen321
Member
+54|6923|Singularity
See now here is an easy way to look at this, why would Iran want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? If you say its because they simply don't like them then well...i guess your overlooking all of the threats being thrown their way.

You infuse idealism into the equation, but I'm trying to operate outside of that. I've been trying for the past couple of post to operate in the realm where action is taking place regardless of the ideology that is prompting the action. Since once again I'm mostly trying to stick to the legality of the action that we take for granted here. You obviously can't accept that Iran should not have a preemptive strike on any other country for the very same reason you seek to strike them. Hence why its essentially a mute point for you to argue since its obvious you will not allow all people to play at the same level of aggression Israel and the US are pretty much known for.

Right now the game is on, its a bluffing mans game and the Iranian's are winning so far since they know very will that if the US/Israel wanted to attack they would have done so by now and all this talk of placing a 2nd carrier and the like in the region is simple saber raddling, but i implore you to realize that we have a man here whom wants his political regime to survive, so essentially what this is doing is empowering him more and more to seek a deterrent to the threat. So, why not confront this diplomatically where you have the ability to defuse the situation, since essentially he doesn't have the weapons right now, but no this was not the route we chose to take hence the UN sanctions etc etc its kinda obvious that neither party wants to really compromise. You have the US giving preconditions of stoppage prior to negations which ultimately break down since stopping is not an option that can be taken prior to negotiating.

In all honesty a strike on key elements to the Iranian nuclear facilities is going to accomplish what? The replacement of the facility elsewhere AND who is to know that they don't already have a second facility functioning. Its all a guessing game right now, granted i don't know anywhere as near as the intelligence agencies.  Yet I'm highly skeptical that we will be able to control the situation as much as the Iraqi incident for this country again is significantly larger and already expecting a strike of the sort.

I support their nuclear aspirations only to the point that it will deter military action and cause untold thousands of deaths for either side. Their actions once acquired is speculative at best, and unfortunately does not take into consideration the length of time it will take for such weapons to be made and who knows what the political scene in Iran could be by then.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6871|The Land of Scott Walker
You’ve been trying to operate in the realm where action is taking place regardless of ideology.  However, it’s not possible to separate Amedinijad from his idealogy – that is the only reason for his actions. 

I’ve already explained why Iran does not have the ability to function the way the US can.  The US has not used our nuclear arsenal against anyone.  However, it is clear more unstable nations would us their nuclear arsenal once acquired, with horrible consequences.  At least you’ve admitted Iran does want nukes, which you would not do in the beginning. 

It’s unwise to advocate nukes for unstable nations on the basis of deterring military action.  Read Ahmedinejad’s own statements - this is not about a man trying to keep his political regime going, it’s about a desire to use his nuclear power as soon as he can obtain it.  The threat you think he's trying to deter has been brought on by himself.  In light of his threats against Israel and aggressively developing nuclear weapons, the carrier moved.  I also think it is saber rattling.  However, Ahmedinejad has already made his move and not moving the carrier would do nothing to motivate him to back off from nuclear weapons. 

I don't want Iran to have nukes for any reason, the least among them deterring military action that would not have to occur if they'd abandon their pursuit of said nukes.  Their actions after acquiring nukes have been made quite clear by Iran's leader and they are purely offensive in nature.  No speculation needed.
Fen321
Member
+54|6923|Singularity
But the catch is they aren't admitting they are developing nukes, so until we can catch them actually making them what can you really do?

The area that i was trying to discuss was the legality of the action of two states. This does not need to be interpreted ideologically since the action will either be aggression from one or aggression from another. Once you move past motivation its still an act of aggression.

You favor a preemptive strike, i counter by saying why can't they (Iran) preemptive strike. The reason being is that any country could simply state they have a threat from a foreign country then decide to do so. As a consequence its illegal and the international community frowns upon this. To be perfectly honest this isn't even debatable check out the internet and you'll come to see that over the past 100 years this type of action has been frowned upon and codified into international law.

Honestly though North Korea, whom technically is still at war with South Korea, is not getting half of the lime light we have been pressing towards Iran.  My issue is that we are making a big issue out of a puppet named Ahmadinejad, his government from what it looks like is having internal issues which eventually it will have to address. I understand how you could be afraid of Iran if you were some how living in the Middle East, but outside of that you really have no immediate threat from him. He doesn't have ICBM nor does he have the nuclear grade  fuel for them.  Hence why pushing for diplomacy is the best route, but none of this diplomacy can happen unless the people of that region are actually taken accounted for in terms of securing Iraq. The reason i say this is due to the instability caused by this war has left a power vacuum which due to Iran's proximity it will not in the least mind to fill that void.

In all honesty the threat is only as real as you want to make it, instigating a situation will not lead to a favorable outcome, and creating more enemies from any sort of preemptive strike just puts us at more risk for reciprocity. Hell, Ahmadinejad would love you to strike at him, he knows the mess in Iraq has got us worn out to some extent and he's betting all his chips that we will not do anything in return.

as for the actions if he did get the nukes what makes you think that they will risk losing it all by launching any kind of nuclear strike anywhere?

Last edited by Fen321 (2007-01-17 16:37:09)

UON
Junglist Massive
+223|7079

Stingray24 wrote:

The US has not used our nuclear arsenal against anyone.
?

Did I read that right?
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7007|SE London

UON wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

The US has not used our nuclear arsenal against anyone.
?

Did I read that right?
lol
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6945|Πάϊ

Bertster7 wrote:

UON wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

The US has not used our nuclear arsenal against anyone.
?

Did I read that right?
lol
L O L
ƒ³
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7027|132 and Bush

oug wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

UON wrote:


?

Did I read that right?
lol
L O L
What he should have said was the US has not threatened to wipe entire nations off the planet if they don't bow before them and surrender.

Ahmadinejad... you silly bitch.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6871|The Land of Scott Walker

UON wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

The US has not used our nuclear arsenal against anyone.
?

Did I read that right?
Yes, besides WW2, we have not.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7007|SE London

Stingray24 wrote:

UON wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

The US has not used our nuclear arsenal against anyone.
?

Did I read that right?
Yes, besides WW2, we have not.
Nor has anyone else. It's hardly a great claim.
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6871|The Land of Scott Walker

Bertster7 wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

UON wrote:


?

Did I read that right?
Yes, besides WW2, we have not.
Nor has anyone else. It's hardly a great claim.
It comes into play when the leader of Iran repeatedly threatens to wipe a nation of the map and then proceeds to develop weapons capable of just that.  Their use by Iran is much more likely given the circumstances.
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|7007|SE London

Stingray24 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:


Yes, besides WW2, we have not.
Nor has anyone else. It's hardly a great claim.
It comes into play when the leader of Iran repeatedly threatens to wipe a nation of the map and then proceeds to develop weapons capable of just that.  Their use by Iran is much more likely given the circumstances.
Much more likely than definite?

There is little real evidence that Iran are in fact developing nuclear weapons. That is all speculation. They are developing nuclear power for civil use. I admit that this may well be a cornerstone on their path to obtaining nuclear weapons. But I doubt Iran currently has a serious nuclear weapons program. It's all just show. Much like North Korea, who I doubt actually possess nuclear weapons, they just want people to think they do (the analysis of their 'nuclear' test showed it was probably not a nuclear explosion and could have been produced by regular explosives).

I think it is far more likely that Iran are developing nuclear power so it looks like they have the capability to produce nuclear weapons, so that they don't get attacked or so they can lure Israel into some sort of attack against Iran which would be massively condemned by the rest of the world and give Iran much more leverage on the world stage. Any attack by Israel would probably help Iran with their nuclear aspirations rather than hindering them and the US is very unlikely to get involved.
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|7101|Belgium
Back on topic...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6274147.stm

"Washington 'snubbed Iran offer' 

Iran offered the US a package of concessions in 2003, but it was rejected, a senior former US official has told the BBC's Newsnight programme.  Tehran proposed ending support for Lebanese and Palestinian militant groups and helping to stabilise Iraq following the US-led invasion.
Offers, including making its nuclear programme more transparent, were conditional on the US ending hostility.

But Vice-President Dick Cheney's office rejected the plan, the official said.

...

One of the then Secretary of State Colin Powell's top aides told the BBC the state department was keen on the plan - but was over-ruled.

"We thought it was a very propitious moment to do that," Lawrence Wilkerson told Newsnight.  "But as soon as it got to the White House, and as soon as it got to the Vice-President's office, the old mantra of 'We don't talk to evil'... reasserted itself."

Observers say the Iranian offer as outlined nearly four years ago corresponds pretty closely to what Washington is demanding from Tehran now."


The sooner these idiots leave the White House, the better.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6793|Columbus, Ohio

Pierre wrote:

The sooner these idiots leave the White House, the better.
You do know that because of Carter and Regan, the Taliban became who they are/were.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7027|132 and Bush

usmarine2007 wrote:

Pierre wrote:

The sooner these idiots leave the White House, the better.
You do know that because of Carter and Regan, the Taliban became who they are/were.
The political world is ever evolving. Enemies become allies, allies become enemies. It has happened since the beginning of mankind. A nations role or interaction with the world can change suddenly and drastically.

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-01-18 06:50:24)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
psH
Banned
+217|6809|Sydney
ill c0m3 and ub3r wh0r3 ir4n wif my 1337 G36E if th3y 8omB teh_w0Rld
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6793|Columbus, Ohio

Doms wrote:

ill c0m3 and ub3r wh0r3 ir4n wif my 1337 G36E if th3y 8omB teh_w0Rld
fail
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|7101|Belgium

usmarine2007 wrote:

Pierre wrote:

The sooner these idiots leave the White House, the better.
You do know that because of Carter and Regan, the Taliban became who they are/were.
I know, I'm not saying former administrations (since the 70's) did all good and nothing wrong, e.g. Clinton should have taken care of OBL after the attacks in Africa, but the current administration has absolutely no clue about foreign politics and behave like John Wayne with the sensitivity of Rambo.

I also wanted to point out that Iran in the past has offered possibilities to settle some disputes or difficulties peacefully, but they were neglected by ol' Dick.

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