Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina
For those of you who don't get the reference, we've spent about $400 billion on the war with and reconstruction of Iraq.

A recent CNN article mentioned that the same amount could be spent to build 35,000 schools in America.

In economics, there is a concept known as opportunity cost.  This concept is used to measure how reasonable an expense is with reference to all the other things you could buy with the same amount of money.

My questions to all of you are...  if you support the continued operations in Iraq, then why is it worth the $400 billion we've spent and the next several hundred billion we're likely to spend in the coming years, and why shouldn't we be spending it on our own country?  Also, why isn't it better to let our citizens keep that money to spend for themselves?  Aren't the opportunity costs vast enough to warrant an end to this?

These questions are obviously aimed at those of you who still support this operation and the proposed troop increases.  If you consider yourself a conservative, then how do you justify the massive costs of this?  Isn't this equivalent to the big government schemes you dislike by liberals?

Being a Libertarian, I prefer to minimize government, but even opening up the option to bigger government, at least the liberals seem to prefer spending big bucks on America instead of Iraq.  If you consider yourself patriotic, shouldn't America come first?  If the poverty of Iraq concerns you, shouldn't the poverty here be even more compelling of an issue?

Whatever the case, I put America first, and I support withdrawing from Iraq as soon as possible.  I'd prefer the government to get smaller, but even if it doesn't, we should at least be spending the money here instead of in a country that mostly seems to not even appreciate our help.

Ok, rant over...  What do you guys think?
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6664|USA
America and Americans aren't important enough to have money spent on them by thier government.

What would the government get out of that?
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio
Dump welfare.  There...money saved.  kthx
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

usmarine2007 wrote:

Dump welfare.  There...money saved.  kthx
We spend far less on welfare than on the military and Iraq.  How is spending on Iraq any different from "welfare" to Iraq?
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Dump welfare.  There...money saved.  kthx
We spend far less on welfare than on the military and Iraq.  How is spending on Iraq any different from "welfare" to Iraq?
Do you use oil at all in your everyday life?
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Dump welfare.  There...money saved.  kthx
We spend far less on welfare than on the military and Iraq.  How is spending on Iraq any different from "welfare" to Iraq?
Do you use oil at all in your everyday life?
So, you're admitting that Iraq is about oil then?
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


We spend far less on welfare than on the military and Iraq.  How is spending on Iraq any different from "welfare" to Iraq?
Do you use oil at all in your everyday life?
So, you're admitting that Iraq is about oil then?
Nope.  I am saying that region needs to be stable in order for the world to survive....at least they way it lives right now.  Have they made it stable.....nope.
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6337|Oregon
So you're pointing out that it's a war for oil?
Isn't THAT a noble cause...

I bet that 400 billion could go towards R+D on products that are independent of oil...

EDIT:

Okay... so you're not saying its about oil... but the world does NOT need stability in the Middle East to survive. It would be great, but wasting the amount of money that we are on it right now is stupid. Very conservative thought... that we need stability there for the world to survive, because of oil...

This is why conservatives have fucked over the USA

Last edited by djphetal (2007-01-11 18:35:21)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:


Do you use oil at all in your everyday life?
So, you're admitting that Iraq is about oil then?
Nope.  I am saying that region needs to be stable in order for the world to survive....at least they way it lives right now.  Have they made it stable.....nope.
Well, here's the weird part.  Most of our oil comes from other countries.  Venezuela is our largest oil supplier.

So again...  how is Iraq relevant in the oil respect?
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio

djphetal wrote:

So you're pointing out that it's a war for oil?
Isn't THAT a noble cause...

I bet that 400 billion could go towards R+D on products that are independent of oil...
Easy to say coming from someone who gobbles down products made of oil or products that use oil, or products that are made available because they are shipped by vehicles which use oil.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

So, you're admitting that Iraq is about oil then?
Nope.  I am saying that region needs to be stable in order for the world to survive....at least they way it lives right now.  Have they made it stable.....nope.
Well, here's the weird part.  Most of our oil comes from other countries.  Venezuela is our largest oil supplier.

So again...  how is Iraq relevant in the oil respect?
I know we have enough oil here to survive.  But we do not want to use up our oil until it is critical right?
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6337|Oregon

usmarine2007 wrote:

djphetal wrote:

So you're pointing out that it's a war for oil?
Isn't THAT a noble cause...

I bet that 400 billion could go towards R+D on products that are independent of oil...
Easy to say coming from someone who gobbles down products made of oil or products that use oil, or products that are made available because they are shipped by vehicles which use oil.
read my edit above.
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6337|Oregon

usmarine2007 wrote:

But we do not want to use up our oil until it is critical right?
EXACTLY... DUR!
Let's use EVERYONE ELSE'S oil first!!!!!!!!!!

god dammit thats stupid...
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio

djphetal wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

But we do not want to use up our oil until it is critical right?
EXACTLY... DUR!
Let's use EVERYONE ELSE'S oil first!!!!!!!!!!

god dammit thats stupid...
Hopefully you have the chance to ask your future kids, kids, kids that.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:


Nope.  I am saying that region needs to be stable in order for the world to survive....at least they way it lives right now.  Have they made it stable.....nope.
Well, here's the weird part.  Most of our oil comes from other countries.  Venezuela is our largest oil supplier.

So again...  how is Iraq relevant in the oil respect?
I know we have enough oil here to survive.  But we do not want to use up our oil until it is critical right?
Well, what if we spend another $400 billion on alternative energy research so that it's not an issue?  That would surely be more productive than another $400 billion on Iraq.
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6337|Oregon

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Well, here's the weird part.  Most of our oil comes from other countries.  Venezuela is our largest oil supplier.

So again...  how is Iraq relevant in the oil respect?
I know we have enough oil here to survive.  But we do not want to use up our oil until it is critical right?
Well, what if we spend another $400 billion on alternative energy research so that it's not an issue?  That would surely be more productive than another $400 billion on Iraq.
yes, thank you.... It's rather simple to see.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Well, here's the weird part.  Most of our oil comes from other countries.  Venezuela is our largest oil supplier.

So again...  how is Iraq relevant in the oil respect?
I know we have enough oil here to survive.  But we do not want to use up our oil until it is critical right?
Well, what if we spend another $400 billion on alternative energy research so that it's not an issue?  That would surely be more productive than another $400 billion on Iraq.
I agree.  First step is with the American people.  Get rid of SUV's and pick-up trucks unless they are needed for work, and then I will take this debate seriously.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6531|Global Command
Its worth the cost if it pays off in the long run by the area being A) more prosperous and democratic, b) having a functioning economy with respect for property rights and rights based not on sectarian divides but by common grounds.

The area being stable, the people having access to goods and services and quality of life will ultimately bring peace and stability to the region. Or at least it wont hurt.

People say they don't want our style of government. Fine, but we've gone ahead and done it anyway.

In the years to come one of two things will happen; Americans will be departed and oil independant of the region, and Islamic tribal rule shall prevail, or, the changes we have initiated will succeed and the surrounding peoples of other nations shall demand the same freedoms and commerce.

The former dooms the people of the region to suffering and lack of development, and the latter may help the people to have a fair share of the worlds bounty once again.
( the more beer I drink the thinkier I get)
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6337|Oregon

usmarine2007 wrote:

djphetal wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:

But we do not want to use up our oil until it is critical right?
EXACTLY... DUR!
Let's use EVERYONE ELSE'S oil first!!!!!!!!!!

god dammit thats stupid...
Hopefully you have the chance to ask your future kids, kids, kids that.
Sorry, but 3 generations from now, we'd have better found an alternative energy source or we're all fucked.

Check that... we're all fucked already, and our best bet is to find alternative energy ASAP so we can spare as many lives and as much of the environment as possible...
Executiator
Member
+69|6422
plastic comes from oil.


doesn't the US import a larger portion of their oil from the US and territories?
jonsimon
Member
+224|6497
You could spend it supporting the US economy using a plethera of automatic stabilizers to bolster the economy against the inevitable fall of the oildollar. Or you could spend it hopelessly trying to set up a puppet government in a country that made the switch. We already know which one bush chose.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

usmarine2007 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:


I know we have enough oil here to survive.  But we do not want to use up our oil until it is critical right?
Well, what if we spend another $400 billion on alternative energy research so that it's not an issue?  That would surely be more productive than another $400 billion on Iraq.
I agree.  First step is with the American people.  Get rid of SUV's and pick-up trucks unless they are needed for work, and then I will take this debate seriously.
True...  that's why many European countries tax the hell out of gas and spend the money on metropolitan transport.

Of course, I'm not suggesting we do that, but we should certainly repeal the tax breaks for purchasing SUV's.
usmarine2007
Banned
+374|6369|Columbus, Ohio

jonsimon wrote:

You could spend it supporting the US economy using a plethera of automatic stabilizers to bolster the economy against the inevitable fall of the oildollar. Or you could spend it hopelessly trying to set up a puppet government in a country that made the switch. We already know which one bush chose.
Look.  Why is it just Bush?  Why did Clinton send troops to the Kuwait/Iraq border in 1998 if that region was not important to the US?
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6337|Oregon

usmarine2007 wrote:

Get rid of SUV's and pick-up trucks unless they are needed for work, and then I will take this debate seriously.
The problem is not with the end user, because they have been supplied no options or been given any tools to make certain things work. I agree that there is an excess of useless vehicles, and that only very few people need pickups or SUVs, but if people were to revolt, we'd fall into anarchy and that would be awful. We need the powers that be to initiate change, because the powers that be won't deal with people initiating the change.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6497

usmarine2007 wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

You could spend it supporting the US economy using a plethera of automatic stabilizers to bolster the economy against the inevitable fall of the oildollar. Or you could spend it hopelessly trying to set up a puppet government in a country that made the switch. We already know which one bush chose.
Look.  Why is it just Bush?  Why did Clinton send troops to the Kuwait/Iraq border in 1998 if that region was not important to the US?
I chose bush because he was in power when the US invaded Iraq to the ends of establishing a puppet government to protect the trade of oil in the US dollar. Clinton didn't do that, so I didn't include him.

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