BF2S Forums Was Jesus the First Liberal Politician?

Serge:

You may want to form your opinions based on more detailed study of Jesus’ teachings rather than documentaries on TV.  The documentaries I have watched dripped of a specific agenda instead of a genuine search for truth and, in some cases, downright animosity towards His teachings.  I’m afraid the documentaries may have even bent your interpretation of the verses you’ve listed.  Context is very important when interpreting Scripture.  If one picks a verse out of a passage and tries to interpret it by itself, one loses the very important perspective of the verses surrounding it. 

Peacemaking/Death Penalty/Crime and Punishment/Justice: The verses in Matthew address individual  behavior towards those who do not like us.  Those who threaten our lives are addressed in other New Testament passages.  Romans 13:3-4 describes the duties of the government to bear the sword and punish evildoers.  I believe that acknowledges the need for a military and capital punishment for practical reasons.   

Corporate Greed/Religion of wealth: Good passages.  They condemn focusing on wealth above the things of God, though having wealth in and of itself is not wrong. 

Paying taxes/Separation of Church and State:  Yes, we are to pay taxes, it is our duty as citizens.  Extending the rest of that verse to cover separation of church and state is taking the verse out of context completely. The subject addressed is taxation, not removing religion from government, which is a modern concept.

Community/Equality&Social Programs:  No argument there.  The church used to take care of the truly poor.  Now with the welfare system, the government largely takes care of the poor (and those who are just plain lazy, too).  Many churches still help the poor, but the intervention of the government has caused more problems than it has solved:

Public prayer & Displays of Faith: The verses you quote are in regard to prideful display of one’s “goodness”.  Humility, a lesson of the heart, is being addressed in that passage.   If you read the whole passage, you will see that it is not teaching that prayer in public is wrong.  Instead, Jesus is criticizing the Pharisees who would parade around faking humility, when they were truly boasting about themselves and seeking praise for their actions.  They were praying so people would notice, instead of praying and focusing on God.

Strict Enforcement of Religious Laws:  Jesus was addressing the extra religious rules created by the Pharisees in these passages.  He routinely criticized them for making more rules that were above and beyond the Mosaic Law.  If you are implying that Jesus’ teachings were suggests rather than truth that we should adhere to, you’re mistaken.  Jesus consistently refers to Himself as the embodiment of truth. 

Individuality and personal experience:  Again, you must acknowledge the context and you failed to quote the whole verse.  The rest states, “ . . . a city set on a hill cannot be hidden.”  Jesus was encouraging His followers to share His teachings and not to hide their belief in Him.  Jesus taught specifically that there are not many ways to God.  John 14:6, “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”  Salvation is not by personal good works we decide to do.  Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you are saved, though faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.”

You are correct, the epistle of Romans was written by the Apostle Paul after Jesus’ death and resurrection, though I’m not certain of the exact time period.  I did not intend to attribute those verses to Jesus’ ministry.  I’m at work so the information regarding the date of Roman’s authorship is not at my fingertips.  The passages contained in Romans that address the government are a small segment of the book.  For that reason, I would not credit it’s inclusion in the Bible to a militaristic social model advocated by the Roman government.  To clarify my thoughts, the most accurate context for Romans 13 would be civil government and not specifically the military.  In my view, if the government can punish law breakers and “wield the sword” to punish murderous citizens, it would stand to reason that it can also wield the sword in military action to defend itself.

Stingray24 wrote:

Serge:

You may want to form your opinions based on more detailed study of Jesus’ teachings rather than documentaries on TV.  The documentaries I have watched dripped of a specific agenda instead of a genuine search for truth and, in some cases, downright animosity towards His teachings.  I’m afraid the documentaries may have even bent your interpretation of the verses you’ve listed.  Context is very important when interpreting Scripture.  If one picks a verse out of a passage and tries to interpret it by itself, one loses the very important perspective of the verses surrounding it. 

Peacemaking/Death Penalty/Crime and Punishment/Justice: The verses in Matthew address individual  behavior towards those who do not like us.  Those who threaten our lives are addressed in other New Testament passages.  Romans 13:3-4 describes the duties of the government to bear the sword and punish evildoers.  I believe that acknowledges the need for a military and capital punishment for practical reasons.   

Corporate Greed/Religion of wealth: Good passages.  They condemn focusing on wealth above the things of God, though having wealth in and of itself is not wrong. 

Paying taxes/Separation of Church and State:  Yes, we are to pay taxes, it is our duty as citizens.  Extending the rest of that verse to cover separation of church and state is taking the verse out of context completely. The subject addressed is taxation, not removing religion from government, which is a modern concept.

Community/Equality&Social Programs:  No argument there.  The church used to take care of the truly poor.  Now with the welfare system, the government largely takes care of the poor (and those who are just plain lazy, too).  Many churches still help the poor, but the intervention of the government has caused more problems than it has solved:

Public prayer & Displays of Faith: The verses you quote are in regard to prideful display of one’s “goodness”.  Humility, a lesson of the heart, is being addressed in that passage.   If you read the whole passage, you will see that it is not teaching that prayer in public is wrong.  Instead, Jesus is criticizing the Pharisees who would parade around faking humility, when they were truly boasting about themselves and seeking praise for their actions.  They were praying so people would notice, instead of praying and focusing on God.

Strict Enforcement of Religious Laws:  Jesus was addressing the extra religious rules created by the Pharisees in these passages.  He routinely criticized them for making more rules that were above and beyond the Mosaic Law.  If you are implying that Jesus’ teachings were suggests rather than truth that we should adhere to, you’re mistaken.  Jesus consistently refers to Himself as the embodiment of truth. 

Individuality and personal experience:  Again, you must acknowledge the context and you failed to quote the whole verse.  The rest states, “ . . . a city set on a hill cannot be hidden.”  Jesus was encouraging His followers to share His teachings and not to hide their belief in Him.  Jesus taught specifically that there are not many ways to God.  John 14:6, “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”  Salvation is not by personal good works we decide to do.  Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you are saved, though faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.”

QFE. Excelent post, I'll probably be coming back to this in future religion threads.

Stingray24 wrote:

Serge:

You may want to form your opinions based on more detailed study of Jesus’ teachings rather than documentaries on TV.  The documentaries I have watched dripped of a specific agenda instead of a genuine search for truth and, in some cases, downright animosity towards His teachings.  I’m afraid the documentaries may have even bent your interpretation of the verses you’ve listed.  Context is very important when interpreting Scripture.  If one picks a verse out of a passage and tries to interpret it by itself, one loses the very important perspective of the verses surrounding it. 

Peacemaking/Death Penalty/Crime and Punishment/Justice: The verses in Matthew address individual  behavior towards those who do not like us.  Those who threaten our lives are addressed in other New Testament passages.  Romans 13:3-4 describes the duties of the government to bear the sword and punish evildoers.  I believe that acknowledges the need for a military and capital punishment for practical reasons.   

Corporate Greed/Religion of wealth: Good passages.  They condemn focusing on wealth above the things of God, though having wealth in and of itself is not wrong. 

Paying taxes/Separation of Church and State:  Yes, we are to pay taxes, it is our duty as citizens.  Extending the rest of that verse to cover separation of church and state is taking the verse out of context completely. The subject addressed is taxation, not removing religion from government, which is a modern concept.

Community/Equality&Social Programs:  No argument there.  The church used to take care of the truly poor.  Now with the welfare system, the government largely takes care of the poor (and those who are just plain lazy, too).  Many churches still help the poor, but the intervention of the government has caused more problems than it has solved:

Public prayer & Displays of Faith: The verses you quote are in regard to prideful display of one’s “goodness”.  Humility, a lesson of the heart, is being addressed in that passage.   If you read the whole passage, you will see that it is not teaching that prayer in public is wrong.  Instead, Jesus is criticizing the Pharisees who would parade around faking humility, when they were truly boasting about themselves and seeking praise for their actions.  They were praying so people would notice, instead of praying and focusing on God.

Strict Enforcement of Religious Laws:  Jesus was addressing the extra religious rules created by the Pharisees in these passages.  He routinely criticized them for making more rules that were above and beyond the Mosaic Law.  If you are implying that Jesus’ teachings were suggests rather than truth that we should adhere to, you’re mistaken.  Jesus consistently refers to Himself as the embodiment of truth. 

Individuality and personal experience:  Again, you must acknowledge the context and you failed to quote the whole verse.  The rest states, “ . . . a city set on a hill cannot be hidden.”  Jesus was encouraging His followers to share His teachings and not to hide their belief in Him.  Jesus taught specifically that there are not many ways to God.  John 14:6, “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”  Salvation is not by personal good works we decide to do.  Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you are saved, though faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Well, without any doubt you are more qualified than me to talk about Jesus and the Bible.  I talk for the knowledge I get from the mentioned documentaries or personal reading, but never went to a church or study religion deeply.  I don't know any of those verses, I just searched the net and tried to build a description using some of the verses. 
But I still think Jesus was some kind of socialist/liberal politician/activist, whatever you want to call him.  At least I think Jesus did exist, lol.
Anyway, good post m8.