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2007-01-09 16:36:26
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6556

ATG wrote:

Okay. Can somebody explain to me what would happen if we were to withdraw and how that would mak the world a safer place?

I understand what you are saying Cam, but Islamic fanatics with nuclear weapons is not acceptable.
A united Islamic world frankly is not acceptable, and that explains why we removed Saddam. A unstable Middle East, wars amongst those people, keeps them a distant low level threat. Same as when we encouraged war between Iran and Iraq, we knew they would both lose money and people and time in development.
9-11 was bad, but it was a low level event comparred to what they would like to do.
Thank god there is a Sunni/Shia rift, and for as bad as they hate us they hate each other worse.
That is the most profound part of this war imo.
OK so essentially you're advocating perpetual occupation of Iraq? So they can't exercise their will, which would likely be a closer alignment with Iran.

PS I don't see what you've got against a good nuclear missile defence shield.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-09 16:37:19)

2007-01-09 16:39:26
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

I wish it went more like, "We are redeploying our troops to our borders, and instead of investing another 100 billion dollars into Iraq we are allocating that money into our intelligence agency. Any known States supporting terrorist actions against the United States are now receiving their one and only warning." No invasions, but expect it extremely hard to walk outside without Sunglasses.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2007-01-09 16:45:58
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6492|Menlo Park, CA

{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank wrote:


There have been battles there for the past few days.
True, but I believe today was big body bag day for the insurgents!!

They had at least 50 dead apparently in street battles, which tells me we are stepping up the street cleansing!! Which needs to be done!! We need to take these miserable terrorist fuckers OUT!

Again, we need to take the powder puff gloves off and wax that ass! Launch a big MOAB on Sadr's fat ass while his is praying in his mosque! Fuck that piece of shit! Why is Malaki protecting him and his army from us?? I dont get that at all. . . .
Settle down a bit John Wayne.  Im pretty sure we cant just drop a bomb into a mosque.  If enemy combatants are using it to fire at our forces.....then yeah, I think we should be able to level that mosque, but realistically it probably wouldnt happen. 

Its a sticky situation really.  Sadr and shias are big supporters of the government, but are also causing the most trouble for Americans and allies.  I say take the chance on loosing Iraq forever, fuck Sadr.
The only reason he supports the government is because he can do what he wants. . .

I say fuck Sadr too! Its already a mess, at least we can do is take out some more insurgent ass!! What could be worse? more insurgents or less. . . .I say a dead insurgent is better than a live one stirring up more shit!
2007-01-09 18:43:15
smtt686
this is the best we can do?
+95|6632|USA

CameronPoe wrote:

OK so essentially you're advocating perpetual occupation of Iraq? So they can't exercise their will, which would likely be a closer alignment with Iran.
I think that worked in Japan and Germany pretty good. Just think, in about 50 years we will be driving arab cars and actually like to have some of what they have!

Last edited by smtt686 (2007-01-09 18:44:31)

2007-01-09 18:56:14
jonsimon
Member
+224|6496

CameronPoe wrote:

I don't agree with your hypothesis and the big question is 'why the fuck would we care if they blow the fuck out of each other - that's their prerogative'. As a west-coast American you should be content in the knowledge that that region of the world is about 15,000 miles away...

On the issue of Iraq: Iraq is a lost cause - I don't even know what the US 'cause' is anymore....!

All I know is that I'd channel most of my energy into resisting foreign influence on my country. I'm pretty sure a rather large amount of Iraqis feel similarly. The amount of ordinance you throw at them ain't gonna change that.
The US cause, through all the doubletalk and bullshit, is to control the region's negotiations with oil companies and through which regulate the trade of oil in Iraq. To do this the US needs to control the reigional violence and create a new easily manipulated puppet government to replace saddam, who we had lost our control of. As a human being, I think this cause is dispicable, and advocate an end to a war without just cause.
2007-01-09 19:00:00
jonsimon
Member
+224|6496

King_County_Downy wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

I'll put it like this:

Killing Moqtada Al-Sadr = well and truly driving the final nail in the coffin of the US 'mission' in Iraq. The man is a very popular ethnic Iraqi. Martyrise him and then you've martyred figureheads on both sides of the religious divide in Iraq. Neither Shi'as or Sunnis want US presence in their country. US citizens would not trust Russians 'rebuilding' their resource rich country, especially if Russia was allied to Iran (as USA is allied to the arch nemesis of nearly every middle eastern nation, Israel). Give it up dudes - it was game over before the whole thing started.
You act like we couldn't win against them. If it came down to it, we could. Biologically, chemically, and nuclearelerly.

We're the big dogs, remember? We got the cool weapons. They throw rocks...maybe have one or two nukes. meh
So what happens after we ravage and destroy the oil fields that fuel our war machine and whose trade in US dollars fuels our economy? They have the greatest tactical advantage, we need them.
2007-01-09 19:08:12
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6530|Global Command

smtt686 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

OK so essentially you're advocating perpetual occupation of Iraq? So they can't exercise their will, which would likely be a closer alignment with Iran.
I think that worked in Japan and Germany pretty good. Just think, in about 50 years we will be driving arab cars and actually like to have some of what they have!
Exactly right!

Are we still in charge of Japan? German?
What wild eyed mad dog imperialistic scheme is this, to take military action, rebuild the nations and then give it back of our free will to the people.

lofuckingl
2007-01-09 19:09:52
jonsimon
Member
+224|6496

ATG wrote:

smtt686 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

OK so essentially you're advocating perpetual occupation of Iraq? So they can't exercise their will, which would likely be a closer alignment with Iran.
I think that worked in Japan and Germany pretty good. Just think, in about 50 years we will be driving arab cars and actually like to have some of what they have!
Exactly right!

Are we still in charge of Japan? German?
What wild eyed mad dog imperialistic scheme is this, to take military action, rebuild the nations and then give it back of our free will to the people.

lofuckingl
Right, because the berlin wall was definetly the best possible scenario after WWII. Everyone thought it was a very pretty wall.
2007-01-09 19:24:53
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|6656|United States of America
Gradual Pull out of Iraq.  Make the Iraq government take care of the terrorist and its borders.  Give the Iraqi people a common Enemy (that isn't the US).  If Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia keep interferring just air strike their leaders palaces and all air ports (military or otherwise).

Secure the US borders.
2007-01-09 19:56:57
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6530|Global Command
Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia, amongst a rogues gallery are using Iraq as a battle ground against each other as well as against us.
http://wpherald.com/articles/2484/1/Fea … -Iran.html
2007-01-09 20:01:35
-=CB=-krazykarl
not always PWD, but usually.
+95|6537|Carlsbad, CA, USA

King_County_Downy wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Yeah - but that's exactly it. The only thing the US could do is turn the place into a desolate lifeless wasteland. Would that be 'mission accomplished'?
Fuck yeah, the oil would be just fine. And I could fill my tank for about 20 bucks again! $50 is way too much. Pisses me off everyday I have to fill up. I say LETS GO!
qft
2007-01-09 20:08:34
jonnykill
The Microwave Man
+235|6681
We should have put Saddam Husein back in the presidency, say we are sorry and pull out of Iraq immediately lol . Iran sees an opportunity to attack Iraq considering the chaos and loss of mass troops after the US invasion. Iran and Iraq go to war. Iran in this position, running a war, would not have the time nor recourse to develop nuclear weapons.Witch means we wouldn't have to deal with a nuclear Iran today. Iran and Iraq will fight for 10 more years. Saddam could have wiped out the Iranians with WMD but he didn't have any ( yuck , yuck , yuck ) Then we could focus on North Korea properly with our soldiers back home at full shtremph lol . I doubt they would have made the choices they have made if we were at full military posture if you know what I mean.

 
Another thing to consider is that George Bush has labeled 3 countries ( North Korea, Syria, and Iran ) the "Axis of Evil " 2 of those countries have flipped the bird to the UN and it's counterparts without any punishment for quite some time by building nuclear weapons. North Korea surprised the world with it's first nuclear detonation not too long ago. Just 3 days ago reports of another blast look to be ready. My only question left is wtf dose Syria have going on behind closed doors? I remember a report 4 years ago. It was a small report about how 3 men riding in an 18 Wheller crossed the boarder of Syria , from Iraq, and got busted with 2000 pounds of XV nerve agent. They confiscated it. Witch means they still have it ............

All of this bullshit weather we stay or leave is going to spiral out of control and just when we fix it..... an asteroid hits the earth and we start all over. Life's a bitch aye mate ???
2007-01-09 20:28:04
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6530|Global Command

jonnykill wrote:

We should have put Saddam Husein back in the presidency, say we are sorry and pull out of Iraq immediately lol . .
Why is it that so many liberals think we can pretend we never invaded and walk away?
Like Colen Powel said, we break it we bought. Iraq may as well be a state.
2007-01-09 20:53:29
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6676|Canberra, AUS

fadedsteve wrote:

{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:


True, but I believe today was big body bag day for the insurgents!!

They had at least 50 dead apparently in street battles, which tells me we are stepping up the street cleansing!! Which needs to be done!! We need to take these miserable terrorist fuckers OUT!

Again, we need to take the powder puff gloves off and wax that ass! Launch a big MOAB on Sadr's fat ass while his is praying in his mosque! Fuck that piece of shit! Why is Malaki protecting him and his army from us?? I dont get that at all. . . .
Settle down a bit John Wayne.  Im pretty sure we cant just drop a bomb into a mosque.  If enemy combatants are using it to fire at our forces.....then yeah, I think we should be able to level that mosque, but realistically it probably wouldnt happen. 

Its a sticky situation really.  Sadr and shias are big supporters of the government, but are also causing the most trouble for Americans and allies.  I say take the chance on loosing Iraq forever, fuck Sadr.
The only reason he supports the government is because he can do what he wants. . .

I say fuck Sadr too! Its already a mess, at least we can do is take out some more insurgent ass!! What could be worse? more insurgents or less. . . .I say a dead insurgent is better than a live one stirring up more shit!
Sure, kill one and get hundreds taking his place
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2007-01-10 00:28:05
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6556

smtt686 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

OK so essentially you're advocating perpetual occupation of Iraq? So they can't exercise their will, which would likely be a closer alignment with Iran.
I think that worked in Japan and Germany pretty good. Just think, in about 50 years we will be driving arab cars and actually like to have some of what they have!
I don't think you quite understand the religion of islam, the mentality of arabs and the perceived 'righteousness' of the Iraq war as against WWII. Britain occupying Ireland lasted, ooooh, 800 years and where did that lead: Ireland having to drag itself out of the middle ages from the 1920s to the present day after mucho violencia pre-1920 leading to the ousting of the invaders from the majority of our land. We all have analogies buddy.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-10 00:30:44)

2007-01-10 01:55:31
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6773|PNW

CameronPoe wrote:

As a west-coast American you should be content in the knowledge that that region of the world is about 15,000 miles away...
250 years ago that might've meant something. And as I've noticed, Americans have received criticism for not paying attention to anything outside their city or state (if even that).

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2007-01-10 01:56:27)

2007-01-10 02:37:22
EVieira
Member
+105|6479|Lutenblaag, Molvania

smtt686 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

OK so essentially you're advocating perpetual occupation of Iraq? So they can't exercise their will, which would likely be a closer alignment with Iran.
I think that worked in Japan and Germany pretty good. Just think, in about 50 years we will be driving arab cars and actually like to have some of what they have!
Nothing can be more naive than comparing WW2 Japan and Germany to Iraq. Japan and Germany were highly industrialized and organized civilizations at that time, the complete opposite of today's Iraq.

But the biggest difference is that in those times America had MacArthur. Now it has a president that listens to his gut...
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-10 02:39:48
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6556

EVieira wrote:

smtt686 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

OK so essentially you're advocating perpetual occupation of Iraq? So they can't exercise their will, which would likely be a closer alignment with Iran.
I think that worked in Japan and Germany pretty good. Just think, in about 50 years we will be driving arab cars and actually like to have some of what they have!
Nothing can be more naive than comparing WW2 Japan and Germany to Iraq. Japan and Germany were highly industrialized and organized civilizations at that time, the complete opposite of today's Iraq.

But the biggest difference is that in those times America had MacArthur. Now it has a president that listens to his gut...
Did you know that there are more nerve endings in your gut than there are in your head? You can look it up.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-10 02:40:11)

2007-01-10 03:39:10
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6492|Menlo Park, CA

Spark wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank wrote:


Settle down a bit John Wayne.  Im pretty sure we cant just drop a bomb into a mosque.  If enemy combatants are using it to fire at our forces.....then yeah, I think we should be able to level that mosque, but realistically it probably wouldnt happen. 

Its a sticky situation really.  Sadr and shias are big supporters of the government, but are also causing the most trouble for Americans and allies.  I say take the chance on loosing Iraq forever, fuck Sadr.
The only reason he supports the government is because he can do what he wants. . .

I say fuck Sadr too! Its already a mess, at least we can do is take out some more insurgent ass!! What could be worse? more insurgents or less. . . .I say a dead insurgent is better than a live one stirring up more shit!
Sure, kill one and get hundreds taking his place
I knew someone would put that. . . doesnt mean that someone can keep the Mahdi army together like he can!!!
2007-01-10 03:45:45
fadedsteve
GOP Sympathizer
+266|6492|Menlo Park, CA

EVieira wrote:

smtt686 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

OK so essentially you're advocating perpetual occupation of Iraq? So they can't exercise their will, which would likely be a closer alignment with Iran.
I think that worked in Japan and Germany pretty good. Just think, in about 50 years we will be driving arab cars and actually like to have some of what they have!
Nothing can be more naive than comparing WW2 Japan and Germany to Iraq. Japan and Germany were highly industrialized and organized civilizations at that time, the complete opposite of today's Iraq.

But the biggest difference is that in those times America had MacArthur. Now it has a president that listens to his gut...
Are you high? The middle east has some of the most advanced oil manufacturing facilities in the world!! Have you ever seen the buildings in the U.A.E or Saudi Arabia?? I can tell you they arent lacking in industry or organization!

They (middle eastern nations) have primarily been ruled by dictators who have squanderd their countries resources, which in turn snubbed their full potential! Hence the reason why we are staying the course in Iraq to stop the purpetual cycle of a savage dictator followed by squanderd resources.

Look AT Japan, they werent some industrial kingpin they are today. . . .that took the USA to help guide them in that direction! The Germans have always been good engineers etc, but we sure as hell helped them rebuild what they now call home today!
2007-01-10 04:27:15
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6556

fadedsteve wrote:

Are you high? The middle east has some of the most advanced oil manufacturing facilities in the world!! Have you ever seen the buildings in the U.A.E or Saudi Arabia?? I can tell you they arent lacking in industry or organization!

They (middle eastern nations) have primarily been ruled by dictators who have squanderd their countries resources, which in turn snubbed their full potential! Hence the reason why we are staying the course in Iraq to stop the purpetual cycle of a savage dictator followed by squanderd resources.

Look AT Japan, they werent some industrial kingpin they are today. . . .that took the USA to help guide them in that direction! The Germans have always been good engineers etc, but we sure as hell helped them rebuild what they now call home today!
1) 'Lacking in industry and organisation': please explain the chronic levels of unemployment then. Flashy buildings do not a good country make.
2) Those same dictators of which you speak keep a lid on the true desires of the people and are sponsored by the US to keep said lid firmly on. 'Snubbing their full potential'? LOL
3) Japan was a fully westernised nation that had imperial dabblings long before WWII, a prime example being their tete-a-tete's with Russia. The Japanese are far more committed, advanced and industrious than the US, if you think you are 'leading' then I suggest you order a reality check.

WWII-Iraq comparisons are fatuous.
2007-01-10 04:52:26
EVieira
Member
+105|6479|Lutenblaag, Molvania

CameronPoe wrote:

fadedsteve wrote:

Are you high? The middle east has some of the most advanced oil manufacturing facilities in the world!! Have you ever seen the buildings in the U.A.E or Saudi Arabia?? I can tell you they arent lacking in industry or organization!

They (middle eastern nations) have primarily been ruled by dictators who have squanderd their countries resources, which in turn snubbed their full potential! Hence the reason why we are staying the course in Iraq to stop the purpetual cycle of a savage dictator followed by squanderd resources.

Look AT Japan, they werent some industrial kingpin they are today. . . .that took the USA to help guide them in that direction! The Germans have always been good engineers etc, but we sure as hell helped them rebuild what they now call home today!
1) 'Lacking in industry and organisation': please explain the chronic levels of unemployment then. Flashy buildings do not a good country make.
2) Those same dictators of which you speak keep a lid on the true desires of the people and are sponsored by the US to keep said lid firmly on. 'Snubbing their full potential'? LOL
3) Japan was a fully westernised nation that had imperial dabblings long before WWII, a prime example being their tete-a-tete's with Russia. The Japanese are far more committed, advanced and industrious than the US, if you think you are 'leading' then I suggest you order a reality check.

WWII-Iraq comparisons are fatuous.
Complementing Cameron's post:

1) Downtown high-rises doesn't say much about industrialization when they are mostly built by a single industry: oil. But anyway, I don't remember seeing even that in Iraq...
2) By all means, stay on course in Iraq. Just don't think doing the same to Iraq as was done to Japan and Germany will work. Totally diferent times, places, needs, cultures, etc...
3) USA sure helped alot, but the foundation to build upon was already there. These countries were full of scientists, engineers, etc. They were building battleships, rockets and developing nuclear tecnology. Does Iraq build anything besides Scuds? And as far as leading them, get real. Japanese and German industries are still today teaching lessons to the entire world. Ever heard of JIT? Kanban? Thats just two examples I can think of right now...

Last edited by EVieira (2007-01-10 04:54:17)

"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-10 06:29:05
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|6842|Cologne, Germany

CameronPoe wrote:

WWII-Iraq comparisons are fatuous.
agreed. Germany and Japan raised the white flag and accepted defeat. No guerilla war, no insurgency. No religiously or historically motivated aggression towards the occupying forces. Also, there was hardly any ethnic divide among japanese or germans.

The current war in Iraq is a stalemate at best. Both parties keep sending more troops into this modern-day meatgrinder, and I see no one raising a white flag any time soon.
To make things even worse, Iraqis keep killing each other along the lines of sectarian violence.

There is no winning this conflict. You can either destroy the country completely or get out and let the Iraqis figure out for themselves what the future holds for them. You have removed Saddam, and given the Iraqis a chance for democracy. Fine. I say it's time for them to find out if they are ready for the challenge.
2007-01-10 07:27:51
EVieira
Member
+105|6479|Lutenblaag, Molvania

B.Schuss wrote:

There is no winning this conflict. You can either destroy the country completely or get out and let the Iraqis figure out for themselves what the future holds for them. You have removed Saddam, and given the Iraqis a chance for democracy. Fine. I say it's time for them to find out if they are ready for the challenge.
You should have thought of that BEFORE going in and toppling their former government, ruthless or not. Now you destabilize a country and just take-off leaving the people to kill each other until someone takes power? Thats giving democracy a chance?

You (US government, Bush, whoever...) made this mess, now you suck it up and fix it. You decided to put democracy in place in Iraq, now you better damn well stay there and fight until it is definitely in place. Use the troops, weapons, tactics, necessary to do so. I always though the invasion of Iraq was precipitated, but now thats its done it needs to go all the way.

The last option should be accepting defeat and go running home leaving Iraq at the mercy of al-Sadr, Iran, Syria or anyone else interest in a piece of oil-rich land.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2007-01-10 07:53:02
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6556

EVieira wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

There is no winning this conflict. You can either destroy the country completely or get out and let the Iraqis figure out for themselves what the future holds for them. You have removed Saddam, and given the Iraqis a chance for democracy. Fine. I say it's time for them to find out if they are ready for the challenge.
You should have thought of that BEFORE going in and toppling their former government, ruthless or not. Now you destabilize a country and just take-off leaving the people to kill each other until someone takes power? Thats giving democracy a chance?

You (US government, Bush, whoever...) made this mess, now you suck it up and fix it. You decided to put democracy in place in Iraq, now you better damn well stay there and fight until it is definitely in place. Use the troops, weapons, tactics, necessary to do so. I always though the invasion of Iraq was precipitated, but now thats its done it needs to go all the way.

The last option should be accepting defeat and go running home leaving Iraq at the mercy of al-Sadr, Iran, Syria or anyone else interest in a piece of oil-rich land.
Schuss is from Germany btw Vieira, not USA. What you are suggesting is controlling the direction of Iraq - if that is against the will of the people of Iraq then it will never work. What is needed is for everybody to step back so that they can have their civil war and determine their own direction(s). Also - some nations are just not ready for democracy - the arbitrary borders defning Iraq give the false impression that it is a homogenous country, which is simply not true. You can't have a democracy when three large and distinct ethnic groups want to kill each other.

Nations need to be built from the bottom up, by the people of the region in question. Arbitrarily drawing lines on a map, as the Brits did post-war when defining Iraq, does not constitute 'nation-building'.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-10 07:55:51)

 

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