Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|7080|United States of America
1.  The war was absolutely legit.  Saddam broke cease fire agreements and shot at our planes patrolling the no fly zone.  The US needs no International permission to protect and defend its interests.

2.  The UN and coalition policing Iraq since the early 1990's has protected the world's oil supply from that region and the people of that region.  This has protected the worlds prosperity for more than a decade.

3.  Bush made a mistake to turn the war into the poster child for fighting terrorism because the World is too stupid to separate terrorism from Al Queda, WMD, and 9-11.

4.  Bush made the mistake of thinking that the people of Iraq would embrace a "Democracy" in their country and underestimated the lengths that Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Syria would go to too stop that democracy from succeeding. 

5.  Bush is willing to bankrupt the US to rebuild and protect Iraq.

6.  Bush underestimated to what lengths the Democrats would go to use the war as a tool to destroy the Republican majority and manipulate the electorate.

7.  Bush failed to allow the military the resources and ability to fight the war in such a manner to achieve the goals that Bush has set.

8.  Democrats and Republicans have turned the war into no more than political fodder at our troops expense.  Our troops are put in very difficult situations only to have their actions tried in the court of Public/World opinion and are held to a standard of combat that is higher than any soldier could humanly live up too with out willingly sacrificing his life to protect those standards.  US soldiers are being investigate and jailed by their own congressmen that send them over their with a failed strategy imposed upon there mission.

9.  Our troop's mission has now been reduced to doing little more than protecting the enemy from itself while their government maneuvers to find the politically least expensive way to end this mission that is now clearly doomed for failure at the governments own hand.

10.  Just like Vietnam the US government has managed again to release the dogs of war still muzzled by the politics of an unrealistic nation without the resolve to actually "engage" the enemy strategically.

11.  The US government has committed treason against the US military men and women.  We are all to blame for allowing this to happen.  Fuck the two party system, only a mental midget would vote Democrat or Republican.
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|7088|USA

Major_Spittle wrote:

We are all to blame for allowing this to happen.
I can't agree with this. Michael Moore was castrated, Sheehan castrated, this new story of the soldier not wanting to go to Iraq. Soon to be castrated.

People have spoken out only to be vaerbally attacked and called unpatriotic. THe French don't want to go? Fuck thier French Fries. Freedom Fries FTW!

No bud. You can blame yourself if you like. Don't put me in that group.

Bush can live with the guilt.
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|7080|United States of America

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

Major_Spittle wrote:

We are all to blame for allowing this to happen.
I can't agree with this. Michael Moore was castrated, Sheehan castrated, this new story of the soldier not wanting to go to Iraq. Soon to be castrated.

People have spoken out only to be vaerbally attacked and called unpatriotic. THe French don't want to go? Fuck thier French Fries. Freedom Fries FTW!

No bud. You can blame yourself if you like. Don't put me in that group.

Bush can live with the guilt.
Michael Moore?  Sheehan?  Deserter? 

These people have nothing to do with what I was talking about.  The Democratic party was retarded on this subject and is a big reason why we are stuck over their now instead of done with the war.  The Dems cry assism is the muzzle on the dogs I spoke of. 

Michael Moore and France, you were the problem I spoke of.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6954|Global Command

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

Major_Spittle wrote:

We are all to blame for allowing this to happen.
I can't agree with this. Michael Moore was castrated, Sheehan castrated, this new story of the soldier not wanting to go to Iraq. Soon to be castrated.

People have spoken out only to be vaerbally attacked and called unpatriotic. THe French don't want to go? Fuck thier French Fries. Freedom Fries FTW!

No bud. You can blame yourself if you like. Don't put me in that group.

Bush can live with the guilt.
We are to blame because we haven't tarred and feathered Bush yet.

I agree with everything Spit says. You'd have to be blind not to see the legal and moral justifications for what we did; the problem has been in the execution.

As for the way forward; they obviously don't want freedom, so let them be our subjects and we can have a long term military administration in charge of Iraq. They only respond to a strongman thug like dictator; fine.

To fail is to give Iraq to Iran and that would be the stupidest act in the history of America.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7026|132 and Bush

I was pondering this the other night...
The more I think about it the more I believe there are very few Iraqi's that want US troops out... let it marinate on your mind for a little.






(Set's the trap)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7075

Kmarion wrote:

I was pondering this the other night...
The more I think about it the more I believe there are very few Iraqi's that want US troops out... let it marinate on your mind for a little.






(Set's the trap)
I suggest you stop thinking then. You'll get a better feel for reality.

EDIT: And Spittle, surely Bush as President of the US should have US interests take priority over random ME countries? Why would he want to bankrupt the US over Iraq? That sounds too stupid even for him.

Last edited by ghettoperson (2007-01-05 11:48:15)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981
A few points:

a) The neo-conservative movement is dead, get over it. Petition for rights as a minority group or something. Even the once-hardline Francis Fukuyama concedes that their agenda has failed and have fucked up the conservative cause in general in the short term.

b) Iraqi oil was not ours or yours to 'protect'. I don't subscribe to this whole 'defending western interests abroad' BS - if we are so reliant on them then why don't we fucking come up with nuclear cars or something!!! Sheesh - I thought conservatives were 'pull yourself up by your own bootstraps' types. The oil is the property of Iraqis and they can drink the stuff as far as I'm concerned. And I haven't seen the western world plunged into recession during this Iraq debacle so your assertion that the 'oil police' were protecting our prosperity is BS.

c) The current US political set-up is designed in such a way that any war fought on questionable grounds is doomed to eventual failure. Welcome to the reality of the two party system and polarised public opinion.

My message would be: try good old fashioned isolationist conservatism!

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-05 11:56:25)

Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7026|132 and Bush

ghettoperson wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

I was pondering this the other night...
The more I think about it the more I believe there are very few Iraqi's that want US troops out... let it marinate on your mind for a little.






(Set's the trap)
I suggest you stop thinking then. You'll get a better feel for reality.

EDIT: And Spittle, surely Bush as President of the US should have US interests take priority over random ME countries? Why would he want to bankrupt the US over Iraq? That sounds too stupid even for him.
Seriously, if the terrorist insurgents had wanted us to leave surely they would allow peace, if not only temporary. Doesn't that sound logical? Maybe I give them too much credit. I'm starting to precribe to the "Much Bigger" idea now. The US is being forced into staying by the people you might think would wan't them out.(Perhaps)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|7080|United States of America

Kmarion wrote:

I was pondering this the other night...
The more I think about it the more I believe there are very few Iraqi's that want US troops out... let it marinate on your mind for a little.
I am sure that many would like a democracy, maybe even a majority of them.  This does not matter when nobody is allowed to hunt down and kill the 10% of the population that is willing to kill people who voice support for the infidels or the current government of Iraq.

4 years of martial law in that country would create 200years of freedom and the strongest economy with the best educated people in that region with the highest standard of living.
[RDH]Warlord
Quakecon Attendee
+17|7084|SLC, Utah, USA
How in the heck do you believe that it is the DEMOCRATS that are responsible for how this whole situation turned out?  They had no power what-so-ever until like the last week!
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7026|132 and Bush

Major_Spittle wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

I was pondering this the other night...
The more I think about it the more I believe there are very few Iraqi's that want US troops out... let it marinate on your mind for a little.
I am sure that many would like a democracy, maybe even a majority of them.  This does not matter when nobody is allowed to hunt down and kill the 10% of the population that is willing to kill people who voice support for the infidels or the current government of Iraq.

4 years of martial law in that country would create 200years of freedom and the strongest economy with the best educated people in that region with the highest standard of living.
I see where you are going but after the revolutionary war you did not see Americans blowing each other up. See the post above yours and "think big".

Edit:With regards to number three. The mistake was WMD's, Saddam had many ties to terrorism.

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-01-05 12:00:05)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6871|The Land of Scott Walker

CameronPoe wrote:

My message would be: try good old fashioned isolationist conservatism!
Sure, sign me up.  As long as the nutjobs worldwide have to stay at home, too.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981

Major_Spittle wrote:

4 years of martial law in that country would create 200years of freedom and the strongest economy with the best educated people in that region with the highest standard of living.
You understand foreigners very little MS. Martial law would just make the resistance more fervent - internment in Northern Ireland didn't exactly 'calm things down' to say the least! Also - Iraqis already were the best educated people in the region - up until about 2001 anyway!

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-05 11:59:54)

ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7075

Kmarion wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

I was pondering this the other night...
The more I think about it the more I believe there are very few Iraqi's that want US troops out... let it marinate on your mind for a little.






(Set's the trap)
I suggest you stop thinking then. You'll get a better feel for reality.

EDIT: And Spittle, surely Bush as President of the US should have US interests take priority over random ME countries? Why would he want to bankrupt the US over Iraq? That sounds too stupid even for him.
Seriously, if the terrorist insurgents had wanted us to leave surely they would allow peace, if not only temporary. Doesn't that sound logical? Maybe I give them too much credit. I'm starting to precribe to the "Much Bigger" idea now. The US is being forced into staying by the people you might think would wan't them out.(Perhaps)
Wait, you're saying that the insurgents are attacking the troops because they want them there? Or you're saying the Iraqi people like the US so much that they are posing as insurgents and attacking them in order to get them to stay? To me it seems like; you are in there country, they don't want you in their country, therefore, they attack you in the hope that you will leave their country.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981

Stingray24 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

My message would be: try good old fashioned isolationist conservatism!
Sure, sign me up.  As long as the nutjobs worldwide have to stay at home, too.
The fact of the matter is you've only had two attacks on home soil in the entire history of your country: which is surprising given the fact that 20m Mexicans have casually strolled across your southern border! The terrorism threat is waaayyyyy over-hyped. Close your borders, work on your missile shield and sit back and relax.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7026|132 and Bush

ghettoperson wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

I suggest you stop thinking then. You'll get a better feel for reality.

EDIT: And Spittle, surely Bush as President of the US should have US interests take priority over random ME countries? Why would he want to bankrupt the US over Iraq? That sounds too stupid even for him.
Seriously, if the terrorist insurgents had wanted us to leave surely they would allow peace, if not only temporary. Doesn't that sound logical? Maybe I give them too much credit. I'm starting to precribe to the "Much Bigger" idea now. The US is being forced into staying by the people you might think would wan't them out.(Perhaps)
Wait, you're saying that the insurgents are attacking the troops because they want them there? Or you're saying the Iraqi people like the US so much that they are posing as insurgents and attacking them in order to get them to stay? To me it seems like; you are in there country, they don't want you in their country, therefore, they attack you in the hope that you will leave their country.
So what you are saying is they are not intelligent to understand that the quickest way for the US to leave is through peace.. even if it is a false peace. Let me ask you, where is this endless supply of weapons and funding coming from for the insurgency?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Major_Spittle
Banned
+276|7080|United States of America

CameronPoe wrote:

A few points:

a) The neo-conservative movement is dead, get over it. Petition for rights as a minority group or something. Even the once-hardline Francis Fukuyama concedes that their agenda has failed and have fucked up the conservative cause in general in the short term.

b) Iraqi oil was not ours or yours to 'protect'. I don't subscribe to this whole 'defending western interests abroad' BS - if we are so reliant on them then why don't we fucking come up with nuclear cars or something!!! Sheesh - I thought conservatives were 'pull yourself up by your own bootstraps' types. The oil is the property of Iraqis and they can drink the stuff as far as I'm concerned. And I haven't seen the western world plunged into recession during this Iraq debacle so your assertion that the 'oil police' were protecting our prosperity is BS.

c) The current US political set-up is designed in such a way that any war fought on questionable grounds is doomed to eventual failure. Welcome to the reality of the two party system and polarised public opinion.

My message would be: try good old fashioned isolationist conservatism!
a)"neo-conservative" is made up by people even dumber than you and thus has no real meaning and makes your statement pointless.

b)Much oil in the whole ME and if Saddam invaded Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Kwait you would be drive your fart powered car to work.

c)Not just the political set up, the people of America are spoiled and raised on shows like "Bambi".  Basically, Americans have turned into pussys unwilling face the realities of War.  Thus we engage in what I call pussy wars that need grandious visions of moral greatness sprinkled with appeasement of our enemy's needs for being defeated with kids gloves and painless bullets.  We now fight war against just the "Government" of the country and Not the Military, Not the People, and certainly not the country itself.  Then everyone will like us and we will be the good guy like in the movies, right?
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|7075

Kmarion wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Seriously, if the terrorist insurgents had wanted us to leave surely they would allow peace, if not only temporary. Doesn't that sound logical? Maybe I give them too much credit. I'm starting to precribe to the "Much Bigger" idea now. The US is being forced into staying by the people you might think would wan't them out.(Perhaps)
Wait, you're saying that the insurgents are attacking the troops because they want them there? Or you're saying the Iraqi people like the US so much that they are posing as insurgents and attacking them in order to get them to stay? To me it seems like; you are in there country, they don't want you in their country, therefore, they attack you in the hope that you will leave their country.
So what you are saying is they are not intelligent to understand that the quickest way for the US to leave is through peace.. even if it is a false peace. Let me ask you, where is this endless supply of weapons and funding coming from for the insurgency?
I would guess at Iran and possibly Syria, however I don't know for sure without checking. Enlighten me.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7026|132 and Bush

ghettoperson wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:


Wait, you're saying that the insurgents are attacking the troops because they want them there? Or you're saying the Iraqi people like the US so much that they are posing as insurgents and attacking them in order to get them to stay? To me it seems like; you are in there country, they don't want you in their country, therefore, they attack you in the hope that you will leave their country.
So what you are saying is they are not intelligent to understand that the quickest way for the US to leave is through peace.. even if it is a false peace. Let me ask you, where is this endless supply of weapons and funding coming from for the insurgency?
I would guess at Iran and possibly Syria, however I don't know for sure without checking. Enlighten me.
I'm not claiming to know.... food for thought.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
SlightlySto0pid
Member
+7|6875|New York
Just because the ME people live on top of the oil, it doesn't belong to them.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7026|132 and Bush

SlightlySto0pid wrote:

Just because the ME people live on top of the oil, it doesn't belong to them.
lol
Xbone Stormsurgezz
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6981

Major_Spittle wrote:

[
c)Not just the political set up, the people of America are spoiled and raised on shows like "Bambi".  Basically, Americans have turned into pussys unwilling face the realities of War.  Thus we engage in what I call pussy wars that need grandious visions of moral greatness sprinkled with appeasement of our enemy's needs for being defeated with kids gloves and painless bullets.  We now fight war against just the "Government" of the country and Not the Military, Not the People, and certainly not the country itself.  Then everyone will like us and we will be the good guy like in the movies, right?
Basically you live in a society, social climate and culture that is never going to be likely to endorse your strongarm theory on how things should be done. Maybe you should move somewhere more totalitarian and join the main political party there. Either that or get a box of kleenex and cry yourself to sleep.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-01-05 12:18:53)

Fen321
Member
+54|6923|Singularity
1.  The war was absolutely legit.  Saddam broke cease fire agreements and shot at our planes patrolling the no fly zone.  The US needs no International permission to protect and defend its interests.

What part about fabricating the information, IE the reason, to going to war do you fail to see? A break in a cease fire which is placed over your COUNTRY, which is now restricting the same sovereignty that they seek to protect and you know damn well you would not allow another country to have a no fly zone over the Mid-West. Now imagine one over your southern portion of your country. Not only that but even the UN itself cannot escape from the damages inflicted on Iraq, the amount of people starved due to Sanctions is well documented, and as a result  it started a movement into when applications of sanctions and just how far they can be placed on other countries.

The US needs no International permission? So have you been hiding in an underground bunker since the beginning of WWII, the entire reason for the founding of the UN is to AVOID more conflicts such as this one, but unfortunately its people such as yourself that believe our actions have no need to be justified by the majority of the world?

Protect your interest fine I’ll buy that for one second IF and ONLY IF you apply that some logic to your enemy, if not then you’re just full of shit and want to do whatever you want and don't want others taking an inch of your "power".



What Moral justification do you use to override the majority of the UN? -ATG

As for legal you are sadly mistaken for military actions such as the one taken place in Iraq that, of which does not have UN approval, is tantamount  to violations of the UN charter itself, and among other International laws such as violation of sovereign rights, and self determination to name a few.

Morals are obviously not in our favor just take a brief look of 2006 headlines with regards to US acts of torture through out the world and not only that take a brief look at why Bush passed the Military Commissions Act of 2006.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7026|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:

Major_Spittle wrote:

[
c)Not just the political set up, the people of America are spoiled and raised on shows like "Bambi".  Basically, Americans have turned into pussys unwilling face the realities of War.  Thus we engage in what I call pussy wars that need grandious visions of moral greatness sprinkled with appeasement of our enemy's needs for being defeated with kids gloves and painless bullets.  We now fight war against just the "Government" of the country and Not the Military, Not the People, and certainly not the country itself.  Then everyone will like us and we will be the good guy like in the movies, right?
Basically you live in a society, social climate and culture that is never going to be likely to endorse your strongarm theory on how things should be done. Maybe you should move somewhere more totalitarian and join the main political party there. Either that or get a box of kleenex and cry yourself to sleep.
I think what he is trying to say is to win a war you must cause pain. Today we use smart bombs and do everything we can to not upset anything that might not be "Tactical". Right or wrong unless a person truly suffers long durations of ugly warfare that persons will is not going to be reduced enough to accept defeat. It's a nasty side effect of becoming civilized .

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-01-05 12:27:28)

Xbone Stormsurgezz
Fen321
Member
+54|6923|Singularity

SlightlySto0pid wrote:

Just because the ME people live on top of the oil, it doesn't belong to them.
Finally someone understands!! Just because US interest are threatened doesn't mean you can invade a COUNTRY !

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