GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6683|Kyiv, Ukraine
If you wanted to argue against the reasons for going to war, you'd have to do so before a court, in this case probably the supreme court. But as far as I know, that hasn't happened yet.
No doubt about it, he will get convicted in military court, but then he becomes a Federal prisoner, whose appeals can indeed go to the Supreme Court.

US Army Court of Appeals => Washington DC Circuit Court => Supreme Court of US

I believe this is why Mr. Watada is choosing this exact path to protest, and why he may actually win his case despite the fact that he is doing his damndest to lose.

If the SCOTUS can choose our President, they can call off a war...or at the very least shed some more light on our international treaty obligations.
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6797|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

Also I i hear one more person say their were not WMD in Iraq, I'm going to flip:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of … estruction

Nuclear, Biological or CHEMICAL............
We found stock piles of Chemical weapons, IE WMDs, and who knows if their are nuke their or not, there are alot of holes in the desert, and alot of problems get buried in those holes.

We are still finding things today.
Dude, quit posting that Wiki link, it just proves you can't read.  It says the opposite of what you're trying to say so passionately.  It also says scientists proved that people that listen to former Senator Santorum and Fox News about WMD are idiots that hear only what they want to hear.
Terms used in a military context include atomic, biological, and chemical warfare (ABC warfare), nuclear, biological, and chemical (NBC) after the invention of the hydrogen bomb, and chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear (CBRN), recognizing the threat of non-explosive radiological weapons.

Following the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and progressing through the Cold War, the term came to refer more to non-conventional weapons.

OK.... you consider chemical weapons conventional? Well went to the UN web site and they classify Chemical weapons as WMDs
http://disarmament.un.org/wmd/
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6880|Portland, OR, USA

B.Schuss wrote:

well, as far as the legal status of the attack on Iraq is concerned, since congress approved all military action, the war is certainly legal according to US law. All constitutional requirements were fulfilled.

Even if you argue that the reasons for war were false and that congress was lied to about the WMD's, that doesn't take away the fact that due process was followed when the decision to attack Iraq was made. If you wanted to argue against the reasons for going to war, you'd have to do so before a court, in this case probably the supreme court. But as far as I know, that hasn't happened yet.


The war is certainly not legal under the UN charter, since there was no attack on US soil conducted by Iraqi forces. Arguing that Iraq posed a threat to the US is ridiculous. But the UN charter doesn't matter here, because it cannot, or rather, will not be enforced anyway. In the end, all that really matters is every nation's right to protect its interests. And if that includes war, then so be it, as long as that country's laws are obeyed when the decision is made.

In other words: A soldier cannot argue that a war is illegal if his elected government has followed due process during the decision. It is not for the soldier to decide who to fight. He follows orders issued by the elected government. Democracy is a beautiful thing, isn't it ? Everybody gets the government he/she deserves....

Thus, although I admire the man's courage to stick to what he believes in, and although I personally consider the war in Iraq illegal too, he most likely has no chance legally.
Since Congress approved it, technically the war in Iraq is legal, at least according to US law.

Illegal orders are something completely different and have nothing to do with the legal status of the war as a whole. As outlined previously, if he had received an illegal order, it would have been his right, no, his duty to disobey.
But as far as I can tell, that hasn't been the case, so his ass will most likely be locked up.

Anyone who thinks that the war is illegal or based on false information should go to the guys who approved it, not let his comrades down. As an officer, he has a responsibility towards the men under his command. It would have been his job to lead them and do all he possibly can to bring them home safely. If you ask me, he is letting them down. 'Cause lord knows, they will go...
So you're telling me that since the vietnam war was started on a lie, it was a legal war too?!


They should be convicting the president, not a soldier who can actually think for himself....
redhawk454
Member
+50|6858|Divided States of America

PluggedValve wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:


When one joins the military, you agree to shut up and follow orders, feeling are not involved. If one feels the need to express their own feeling about the war, they should become a full time war protestor, not a member of the armed forces.
Or vote.
It doesnt work when a Bush is running and the Voting machines were made by his cousin conveniently in Texas.
Oh yeah and next he's going to repeal the law that says a president can only serve 2 terms. bahahahahaa
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7078

SgtHeihn wrote:

BN wrote:

deeznutz1245 wrote:


Um news flash, they kinda did have them. Oh wait thats right, the news didn't want you to know that so therefore you dint. It must be a nice sheltered feeling, living off of what your TV and your PC tell you. If that was my source to the outside world (a computer), I would think the world was nothing but porn and hot pockets.
Um news flash...no they did not.

NO WMD's, NO links to Al Qaeda, NO mobile weapon labs, NO buying yellow cake uranium from Niger.

If they have WMD'S Fox News, Republican Propaganda Machine, would have been dancing in the streets.

US found some weapons but not the ones mentioned in the cases stated before the UN & Congress.

If you are going to make a comment at least be informed of the facts.
I guess you did not read my post earlier so I will refresh on the WMD thing

SgtHeihn wrote:

Also I i hear one more person say their were not WMD in Iraq, I'm going to flip:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of … estruction

Nuclear, Biological or CHEMICAL............
We found stock piles of Chemical weapons, IE WMDs, and who knows if their are nuke their or not, there are alot of holes in the desert, and alot of problems get buried in those holes.

We are still finding things today.
Did you read my post? the case for war was WMD's, links to Al Qaeda,  mobile weapon labs,  buying yellow cake uranium from Niger. None of these  have appeared. All lies and more bullshit.

Perhaps ask Tenet or Rice or Rummy where these things are.

To quote Rummy "we know there they are...in and around Tikrik, north east, west and south." Not sure if he was referring to WMD's or sand particles.

This has been debated and talked about at length and if you believe that WMD's were found then you are in a very small majority.
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6797|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
I guess you can't read, look at both links I posted. Also an Iraqi General died from a Sarin gas shell, plus it's never been debated that Iraq had chemical weapons, a Weapon of Mass Destruction.
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6683|Kyiv, Ukraine
I guess you can't read, look at both links I posted. Also an Iraqi General died from a Sarin gas shell, plus it's never been debated that Iraq had chemical weapons, a Weapon of Mass Destruction.
Iraq had them and DISPOSED of them LONG BEFORE our invasion with the intention of never using them again.  This makes invading them for reasons of imminent WMD attack null and void by any stretch of logic.  Why did they have them in the first place? WE SOLD THEM to Saddam during the Reagan administration.  Why did we still believe he had them, because Rummy created his own intelligence service from scratch to make intel match policy instead of the other way around.
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6797|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Ira … sified.pdf

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/displ … m0.1464655

All destroyed? If your country has the ability to make fertilizer you can make Nerve Gas, hell mix house hold chemicals and you can make chlorine gas
acEofspadEs6313
Shiny! Let's be bad guys.
+102|7003|NAS Jacksonville, Florida

SgtHeihn wrote:

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Iraq_WMD_Declassified.pdf

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/displ … m0.1464655

All destroyed? If your country has the ability to make fertilizer you can make Nerve Gas, hell mix house hold chemicals and you can make chlorine gas
You have WMD's. I'm going to come invade your house!
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6683|Kyiv, Ukraine
Exactly, by that logic everyone has a WMD factory hidden under their kitchen sink...
Sgt.Todd_3465
Member
+22|6814

I_invented_BF2 wrote:

he is a damn pussy.

the war is NOT illegal. even if the offial reason to go to war was chemical weapons plants, and they didn't find any, it isn't illegal. a nation does NOT need to file any reason, why they would want to declare war against another country. that is their right as an independant nation. the only thing they need to go to war, is the WILL to do so..

he has brought shame to the US military, and I hope he get treated according to that.
Wow.. no reason to go to war? Wow, really glad you said so..

Wait 10-20 years when CHINA becomes the NEW super power of the world and decides the United States of America is a NATIONAL threat and invades\destroys\takes over.. then you will be crying that the had to "reason".

I do not speak much on bf2s, but the IGNORANCE of that post just struck a nerve.
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7078

SgtHeihn wrote:

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Iraq_WMD_Declassified.pdf

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/displ … m0.1464655

All destroyed? If your country has the ability to make fertilizer you can make Nerve Gas, hell mix house hold chemicals and you can make chlorine gas
I don't need to rebut your posts. You seem to shoot yourself in the foot every time.
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6797|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

acEofspadEs6313 wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Iraq_WMD_Declassified.pdf

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/displ … m0.1464655

All destroyed? If your country has the ability to make fertilizer you can make Nerve Gas, hell mix house hold chemicals and you can make chlorine gas
You have WMD's. I'm going to come invade your house!
Come on up I live about a half an hour north of you
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7151|Cologne, Germany

CommieChipmunk wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

well, as far as the legal status of the attack on Iraq is concerned, since congress approved all military action, the war is certainly legal according to US law. All constitutional requirements were fulfilled.

Even if you argue that the reasons for war were false and that congress was lied to about the WMD's, that doesn't take away the fact that due process was followed when the decision to attack Iraq was made. If you wanted to argue against the reasons for going to war, you'd have to do so before a court, in this case probably the supreme court. But as far as I know, that hasn't happened yet.


The war is certainly not legal under the UN charter, since there was no attack on US soil conducted by Iraqi forces. Arguing that Iraq posed a threat to the US is ridiculous. But the UN charter doesn't matter here, because it cannot, or rather, will not be enforced anyway. In the end, all that really matters is every nation's right to protect its interests. And if that includes war, then so be it, as long as that country's laws are obeyed when the decision is made.

In other words: A soldier cannot argue that a war is illegal if his elected government has followed due process during the decision. It is not for the soldier to decide who to fight. He follows orders issued by the elected government. Democracy is a beautiful thing, isn't it ? Everybody gets the government he/she deserves....

Thus, although I admire the man's courage to stick to what he believes in, and although I personally consider the war in Iraq illegal too, he most likely has no chance legally.
Since Congress approved it, technically the war in Iraq is legal, at least according to US law.

Illegal orders are something completely different and have nothing to do with the legal status of the war as a whole. As outlined previously, if he had received an illegal order, it would have been his right, no, his duty to disobey.
But as far as I can tell, that hasn't been the case, so his ass will most likely be locked up.

Anyone who thinks that the war is illegal or based on false information should go to the guys who approved it, not let his comrades down. As an officer, he has a responsibility towards the men under his command. It would have been his job to lead them and do all he possibly can to bring them home safely. If you ask me, he is letting them down. 'Cause lord knows, they will go...
So you're telling me that since the vietnam war was started on a lie, it was a legal war too?!


They should be convicting the president, not a soldier who can actually think for himself....
where did I mention Vietnam ? I was refering to the current war in Iraq and its legal status with regard to US law.

Vietnam is a different story. If we started that discussion now, we'd be heading straight off topic...
arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6991|Colorado Springs, CO

B.Schuss wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

well, as far as the legal status of the attack on Iraq is concerned, since congress approved all military action, the war is certainly legal according to US law. All constitutional requirements were fulfilled.

Even if you argue that the reasons for war were false and that congress was lied to about the WMD's, that doesn't take away the fact that due process was followed when the decision to attack Iraq was made. If you wanted to argue against the reasons for going to war, you'd have to do so before a court, in this case probably the supreme court. But as far as I know, that hasn't happened yet.


The war is certainly not legal under the UN charter, since there was no attack on US soil conducted by Iraqi forces. Arguing that Iraq posed a threat to the US is ridiculous. But the UN charter doesn't matter here, because it cannot, or rather, will not be enforced anyway. In the end, all that really matters is every nation's right to protect its interests. And if that includes war, then so be it, as long as that country's laws are obeyed when the decision is made.

In other words: A soldier cannot argue that a war is illegal if his elected government has followed due process during the decision. It is not for the soldier to decide who to fight. He follows orders issued by the elected government. Democracy is a beautiful thing, isn't it ? Everybody gets the government he/she deserves....

Thus, although I admire the man's courage to stick to what he believes in, and although I personally consider the war in Iraq illegal too, he most likely has no chance legally.
Since Congress approved it, technically the war in Iraq is legal, at least according to US law.

Illegal orders are something completely different and have nothing to do with the legal status of the war as a whole. As outlined previously, if he had received an illegal order, it would have been his right, no, his duty to disobey.
But as far as I can tell, that hasn't been the case, so his ass will most likely be locked up.

Anyone who thinks that the war is illegal or based on false information should go to the guys who approved it, not let his comrades down. As an officer, he has a responsibility towards the men under his command. It would have been his job to lead them and do all he possibly can to bring them home safely. If you ask me, he is letting them down. 'Cause lord knows, they will go...
So you're telling me that since the vietnam war was started on a lie, it was a legal war too?!


They should be convicting the president, not a soldier who can actually think for himself....
where did I mention Vietnam ? I was refering to the current war in Iraq and its legal status with regard to US law.

Vietnam is a different story. If we started that discussion now, we'd be heading straight off topic...
LOL, you said UN! . They are a f'ing joke to the world.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6805

I_invented_BF2 wrote:

he is a damn pussy.

the war is NOT illegal. even if the offial reason to go to war was chemical weapons plants, and they didn't find any, it isn't illegal. a nation does NOT need to file any reason, why they would want to declare war against another country. that is their right as an independant nation. the only thing they need to go to war, is the WILL to do so..

he has brought shame to the US military, and I hope he get treated according to that.
OMG he has morals what a pussy!!!!111lolololo we shud hang ppl lyke him 4 havig pussy morals becuz they dont want to kil all the A-rabs lol

Thats what most of you bleeding heart patriots sound like right now.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6911|132 and Bush

jonsimon wrote:

I_invented_BF2 wrote:

he is a damn pussy.

the war is NOT illegal. even if the offial reason to go to war was chemical weapons plants, and they didn't find any, it isn't illegal. a nation does NOT need to file any reason, why they would want to declare war against another country. that is their right as an independant nation. the only thing they need to go to war, is the WILL to do so..

he has brought shame to the US military, and I hope he get treated according to that.
OMG he has morals what a pussy!!!!111lolololo we shud hang ppl lyke him 4 havig pussy morals becuz they dont want to kil all the A-rabs lol

Thats what most of you bleeding heart patriots sound like right now.
Hang him now, no. Should he be dealt with in our justice system and receive the proper punishment for breaching a contract he volunteered himself to, yes. He put himself in this moral dilemma with his own free will. It's very simple, if there is any chance you may find yourself in a situation that would not allow yourself to do the duty you pledged to do you do not enlist.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Hurricane
Banned
+1,153|6940|Washington, DC

I don't blame him for not wanting to go fight a stupid war, but he signed up for the military. I'm sure if there are forms you have to sign, at least one of them says "By signing this I acknowledge that I may deployed to war at any time".
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6911|132 and Bush

Hurricane wrote:

I don't blame him for not wanting to go fight a stupid war, but he signed up for the military. I'm sure if there are forms you have to sign, at least one of them says "By signing this I acknowledge that I may deployed to war at any time".
More specifically they ask you if you are a conscientious objector.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
acEofspadEs6313
Shiny! Let's be bad guys.
+102|7003|NAS Jacksonville, Florida

Kmarion wrote:

Hurricane wrote:

I don't blame him for not wanting to go fight a stupid war, but he signed up for the military. I'm sure if there are forms you have to sign, at least one of them says "By signing this I acknowledge that I may deployed to war at any time".
More specifically they ask you if you are a conscientious objector.
Indeed they do. I enlisted in the Navy this past November, and I was asked that question frequently, and I believe I signed a form about it.

Last edited by acEofspadEs6313 (2007-01-06 21:51:24)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6985|Canberra, AUS

fadedsteve wrote:

Court Martial/dishonerable discharge! The stiffest penalty/punishment should be sought by the government! 

Yellow bellies like this don't belong amongst heroes who fight/die for their country!

Shameful. . . . absolutely shameful!

Moreover, FUCK THAT GUY! You don't want to fight in a war, THEN DON'T SIGN UP FOR THE FUCKING MILITARY! CUFF AND STUFF THAT TRAITOR!!
For once I agree.

Fucking hell. If it was a compulsary draft and he refused on grounds of conscientious objector/pacifist then that's OK. But goddamn, you joint the military to fight a war, not to get some handout.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
D00MSAYER
Member
+5|6992|Austria
Dunno if you know Crimson Tide (Movie):

Capt. Ramsey: "We're here to preserve democracy, not practice it."

If you are not able to follow simple commands, you are not qualified for military.
Nothing else to say.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7151|Cologne, Germany

arabeater wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

CommieChipmunk wrote:


So you're telling me that since the vietnam war was started on a lie, it was a legal war too?!


They should be convicting the president, not a soldier who can actually think for himself....
where did I mention Vietnam ? I was refering to the current war in Iraq and its legal status with regard to US law.

Vietnam is a different story. If we started that discussion now, we'd be heading straight off topic...
LOL, you said UN! . They are a f'ing joke to the world.
well, I hope you realize that the US, as a permanent member on the security council, is just as responsible for the failures of the UN as any other member state. The UN is only as strong as its members allow it to be.
arabeater
Do you have any idea how fooking busy I am?
+49|6991|Colorado Springs, CO

B.Schuss wrote:

arabeater wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:


where did I mention Vietnam ? I was refering to the current war in Iraq and its legal status with regard to US law.

Vietnam is a different story. If we started that discussion now, we'd be heading straight off topic...
LOL, you said UN! . They are a f'ing joke to the world.
well, I hope you realize that the US, as a permanent member on the security council, is just as responsible for the failures of the UN as any other member state. The UN is only as strong as its members allow it to be.
We should leave the UN then. Hell we only approve shit when it is in our best intrest anyways. Who has veto power on the council?
StokoE
Losers-Server
+51|7151|UK
They should send the guy anyway.. Hawaians should be forced into war.. ho ho ho

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