EVieira
Member
+105|6788|Lutenblaag, Molvania

I_invented_BF2 wrote:

he has brought shame to the US military, and I hope he get treated according to that.
Bush has done much more to demoralize not just your armed forces but your entire government with this war based solely on bullcrap. Anything the US goverment says now has absolutely no credibility, at least in the international level. I hope Bush and his supporters get treated according to that.

I hope this soldier continues his protest, its good to see the liberties of your constitution are not denied even to your military personnel. Down here this guy would have been silenced a long time ago...
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
r'Eeee
That's how I roll, BITCH!
+311|6758

EVieira wrote:

I_invented_BF2 wrote:

he has brought shame to the US military, and I hope he get treated according to that.
Bush has done much more to demoralize not just your armed forces but your entire government with this war based solely on bullcrap. Anything the US goverment says now has absolutely no credibility, at least in the international level. I hope Bush and his supporters get treated according to that.

I hope this soldier continues his protest, its good to see the liberties of your constitution are not denied even to your military personnel. Down here this guy would have been silenced a long time ago...
+1
Mogura
Member
+17|6672|EUROPE

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Mogura wrote:

its like that, you are a soldier , you get payd to do something, you do it ( IT DONT HAVE TO SUIT YOU ! )
and if definitely it dont suit you , stop being / call your self a soldier.

ok we live today, not in the time of roman empire, and when you join military you sing up a contract ( a lawyers  knows importance of legaly established contracts ) for a few years, as long as contract is valid, he have to do what is asked for him, in exchange he gets his sold
Yeah, I love it how people like you think.

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Let me pose a hypothetical question to you:

Your country is involved in a war. You are winning and a number of enemy troops surrenders to your unit. They are disarmed and handcuffed when a superior officer comes, and orders you to shoot them. Do you obey the order?
yes
stkhoplite
Banned
+564|6789|Sheffield-England

I_invented_BF2 wrote:

he is a damn pussy.

the war is NOT illegal. even if the offial reason to go to war was chemical weapons plants, and they didn't find any, it isn't illegal. a nation does NOT need to file any reason, why they would want to declare war against another country. that is their right as an independant nation. the only thing they need to go to war, is the WILL to do so..

he has brought shame to the US military, and I hope he get treated according to that.
Not wanting to go to war because he thinks it's illegal doesn't make him a pussy.... He is sticking up for what he believes in.
namelostonthetoilet
Member
+2|6647
im naked
misconfiguration
GURU
+86|6706|Indianapolis, IN

namelostonthetoilet wrote:

im naked
WTF? lol it never fails, always someone to revert the topic.
aardfrith
Δ > x > ¥
+145|7102
A soldier is supposed to follow orders that are legal.  That is the judgement that came down from Nuremberg - the Nazi war trials.

If he's ordered to do something illegal, such as gas jews, he's supposed to refuse and probably report the order up the chain of command.

So this thing boils down to whether an officer's judgement of whether fighting in Iraq is legal, that's the crux of the matter.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6911|132 and Bush

stkhoplite wrote:

I_invented_BF2 wrote:

he is a damn pussy.

the war is NOT illegal. even if the offial reason to go to war was chemical weapons plants, and they didn't find any, it isn't illegal. a nation does NOT need to file any reason, why they would want to declare war against another country. that is their right as an independant nation. the only thing they need to go to war, is the WILL to do so..

he has brought shame to the US military, and I hope he get treated according to that.
Not wanting to go to war because he thinks it's illegal doesn't make him a pussy.... He is sticking up for what he believes in.
Some Men believe in raping Women, I think they're Pussies as well.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
RoofusMcDoofus
Member
+15|6885

kessel! wrote:

the war IS criminal. This man is a hero
golgoj4
Member
+51|7084|North Hollywood

Major.League.Infidel wrote:

ATG wrote:

I have just one question for him;
Blindfold, ciggerette or both?
He Doesn't get the choice to answer that.  I believe the Constitution that he swore to defend doesn't take to kindly to traitors.
Yeah well it doesnt like being tramples on by Fascists either...oh wait you support the fascism. AWSOME!
golgoj4
Member
+51|7084|North Hollywood

Mogura wrote:

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Mogura wrote:

its like that, you are a soldier , you get payd to do something, you do it ( IT DONT HAVE TO SUIT YOU ! )
and if definitely it dont suit you , stop being / call your self a soldier.

ok we live today, not in the time of roman empire, and when you join military you sing up a contract ( a lawyers  knows importance of legaly established contracts ) for a few years, as long as contract is valid, he have to do what is asked for him, in exchange he gets his sold
Yeah, I love it how people like you think.

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Let me pose a hypothetical question to you:

Your country is involved in a war. You are winning and a number of enemy troops surrenders to your unit. They are disarmed and handcuffed when a superior officer comes, and orders you to shoot them. Do you obey the order?
yes
are you currently in? I hope not because its non thinking morons like you that gave us pix like Abu Grabass. Last time I checked UCMJ says u dont have to follow an unlawful order.
{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank
U.S. > Iran
+497|6888|Florida

ATG wrote:

There are a bunch like him, people who joined hoping for some education and what they got instead was a war.

We have a army of free people who are not conscripts, but once they sign up I don't think they should be able to say what they are going to do or not.

If he just wanted out he could just say he was gay, or sucker punch another trooper one time too many, but no, the coward wants his army college fund money.

I have just one question for him;
Blindfold, ciggerette or both?


kessel! wrote:

the war IS criminal. This man is a hero
pfft, go eat snow you silly Canuck, thats just ignorant.
The guy signed up for the Army.  Maybe he signed up for education or the cool boots or something I dunno.  But he obviously forgot that the Army is a branch of our military.....they fight wars.  I dont know if this slogan is in other branches, but for the AF its "Service Before Self".  Hence he is a soldier before hes a student/truck driver/gate keeper/phone operator/etc/etc/etc.  The guy may be against the war, and he may not want to go to Iraq.....but he signed up for the military.

Im honestly kind of speechless about it.  The guy just pisses me off.
PluggedValve
Member
+17|6650

I_invented_BF2 wrote:

he is a damn pussy.

the war is NOT illegal. even if the offial reason to go to war was chemical weapons plants, and they didn't find any, it isn't illegal. a nation does NOT need to file any reason, why they would want to declare war against another country. that is their right as an independant nation. the only thing they need to go to war, is the WILL to do so..

he has brought shame to the US military, and I hope he get treated according to that.
So it WAS legal for Saddam to invade Kuwait???  He didnt have to file a reason. 
The International community called it illegal because they had no VALID grounds.  That is why GW made the "coalition of the willing" made up primarily of US sattelite states like Peurto Rico and Myanmar, because everyone else saw it as an illegal war. 

By the way, no offense to the good hearted soldier whos too stupid to know whats right and wrong, but the US military has brought more shame upon itself than anyone else.  See Vietnam lies, JFK assassination, 9/11, Panama, Contra wars, giving Saddam chemical weapons to use agaist Iran, putting the Taliban in power because "they're better than the Russians", War on Drugs. etc....

If a firefighter fights fires, and a crime fighter fights crime, what do freedom fighters fight????
PluggedValve
Member
+17|6650

SgtHeihn wrote:

This man, I use the term liberally, is a pussy. When you join the military...... wait, MILITARY IE war fighting force. Oh wait, he just joined for the college money. He should be stripped of his bars and sent to prison and get a dishonorable discharge. I didn't want to go to Iraq but I followed orders and went.

Edit: If he didn't want to fight, then why did he join the Infantry???
Maybe he thought he was protecting his country and not attacking and controlling others. 

IMO all conflicts should be fully optional to the soldier.  That way the government would really have to convince their soldiers that what they are doing is right.  It would help with keeping imperialistic countries inside there own borders.
PluggedValve
Member
+17|6650

Kmarion wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

ryan_14 wrote:

What, you get sent to jail if you have your own feelings about the war? That's BS right there.
When one joins the military, you agree to shut up and follow orders, feeling are not involved. If one feels the need to express their own feeling about the war, they should become a full time war protestor, not a member of the armed forces.
Or vote.
It doesnt work when a Bush is running and the Voting machines were made by his cousin conveniently in Texas.
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6797|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

BN wrote:

deeznutz1245 wrote:

BN wrote:


How was invading Iraq protecting the USA? They didn't have the weapons the government spoke of.

This is an occupation now.
Um news flash, they kinda did have them. Oh wait thats right, the news didn't want you to know that so therefore you dint. It must be a nice sheltered feeling, living off of what your TV and your PC tell you. If that was my source to the outside world (a computer), I would think the world was nothing but porn and hot pockets.
Um news flash...no they did not.

NO WMD's, NO links to Al Qaeda, NO mobile weapon labs, NO buying yellow cake uranium from Niger.

If they have WMD'S Fox News, Republican Propaganda Machine, would have been dancing in the streets.

US found some weapons but not the ones mentioned in the cases stated before the UN & Congress.

If you are going to make a comment at least be informed of the facts.
I guess you did not read my post earlier so I will refresh on the WMD thing

SgtHeihn wrote:

Also I i hear one more person say their were not WMD in Iraq, I'm going to flip:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of … estruction

Nuclear, Biological or CHEMICAL............
We found stock piles of Chemical weapons, IE WMDs, and who knows if their are nuke their or not, there are alot of holes in the desert, and alot of problems get buried in those holes.

We are still finding things today.
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6797|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

PluggedValve wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

This man, I use the term liberally, is a pussy. When you join the military...... wait, MILITARY IE war fighting force. Oh wait, he just joined for the college money. He should be stripped of his bars and sent to prison and get a dishonorable discharge. I didn't want to go to Iraq but I followed orders and went.

Edit: If he didn't want to fight, then why did he join the Infantry???
Maybe he thought he was protecting his country and not attacking and controlling others. 

IMO all conflicts should be fully optional to the soldier.  That way the government would really have to convince their soldiers that what they are doing is right.  It would help with keeping imperialistic countries inside there own borders.
Wow you just solved the worlds problems
namelostonthetoilet
Member
+2|6647
Once upon a time a great leder took his army to a battle and won a great victory, the soldiers raped and pillaged the enemy land and after 2days all inhabitants where dead.
Then the army attacked another country and raped and pillaged for a entire month and  all inhabitants died.
Then the army moved to the last country, but what they didnt know was that a great disease was infecting their bodies when they raped, after a month or so the army of ten tousend men died in their beds because of the disease, AIDS.
The once a great nation struggled to keep their land but the enemys splited the country between eachother and our story of heroes and gentlemens are at the end.

The moral in this story is to ALWAYS where the condom when you rape in a foreign country.
Lets send the troops down there a box of strawberry flavoured condoms so they can have some fun!

Cheers.
Mogura
Member
+17|6672|EUROPE

aardfrith wrote:

A soldier is supposed to follow orders that are legal.  That is the judgement that came down from Nuremberg - the Nazi war trials.

If he's ordered to do something illegal, such as gas jews, he's supposed to refuse and probably report the order up the chain of command.

So this thing boils down to whether an officer's judgement of whether fighting in Iraq is legal, that's the crux of the matter.
BUSH IS THE UPPER MOST CHIEF OF US MILITARY. AND HE SAYS ITS LEGAL....
Mogura
Member
+17|6672|EUROPE

golgoj4 wrote:

Mogura wrote:

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Mogura wrote:

its like that, you are a soldier , you get payd to do something, you do it ( IT DONT HAVE TO SUIT YOU ! )
and if definitely it dont suit you , stop being / call your self a soldier.

ok we live today, not in the time of roman empire, and when you join military you sing up a contract ( a lawyers  knows importance of legaly established contracts ) for a few years, as long as contract is valid, he have to do what is asked for him, in exchange he gets his sold
Yeah, I love it how people like you think.

yes
are you currently in? I hope not because its non thinking morons like you that gave us pix like Abu Grabass. Last time I checked UCMJ says u dont have to follow an unlawful order.
who decide what order is lawfull and what order is not ? and if that / those persons , who decide about lawfullnes say that order i just recieve is lawfull ?
joker8baller
Member
+68|6977

Mogura wrote:

aardfrith wrote:

A soldier is supposed to follow orders that are legal.  That is the judgement that came down from Nuremberg - the Nazi war trials.

If he's ordered to do something illegal, such as gas jews, he's supposed to refuse and probably report the order up the chain of command.

So this thing boils down to whether an officer's judgement of whether fighting in Iraq is legal, that's the crux of the matter.
BUSH IS THE UPPER MOST CHIEF OF US MILITARY. AND HE SAYS ITS LEGAL....
... It's Bush.

A person decides legality, if it's against their belief... why should they do it?

Last edited by joker8baller (2007-01-05 10:42:34)

Sorcerer0513
Member
+18|6852|Outer Space

Mogura wrote:

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Mogura wrote:

its like that, you are a soldier , you get payd to do something, you do it ( IT DONT HAVE TO SUIT YOU ! )
and if definitely it dont suit you , stop being / call your self a soldier.

ok we live today, not in the time of roman empire, and when you join military you sing up a contract ( a lawyers  knows importance of legaly established contracts ) for a few years, as long as contract is valid, he have to do what is asked for him, in exchange he gets his sold
Yeah, I love it how people like you think.

Sorcerer0513 wrote:

Let me pose a hypothetical question to you:

Your country is involved in a war. You are winning and a number of enemy troops surrenders to your unit. They are disarmed and handcuffed when a superior officer comes, and orders you to shoot them. Do you obey the order?
yes
WOW, just wow.

http://www.army.mil/references/UCMJ/ucmj2.html
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/punitive … /mcm90.htm

(2) Disobeying superior commissioned officer.

(a) Lawfulness of the order.

(i) Inference of lawfulness. An order requiring the performance of a military duty or act may be inferred to be lawful and it is disobeyed at the peril of the subordinate. This inference does not apply to a patently illegal order, such as one that directs the commission of a crime.
War crime definition according to wiki

Lol, upon reading this:

Mogura wrote:

BUSH IS THE UPPER MOST CHIEF OF US MILITARY. AND HE SAYS ITS LEGAL....
I get the feeling you're just trolling.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6911|132 and Bush

PluggedValve wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

When one joins the military, you agree to shut up and follow orders, feeling are not involved. If one feels the need to express their own feeling about the war, they should become a full time war protestor, not a member of the armed forces.
Or vote.
It doesnt work when a Bush is running and the Voting machines were made by his cousin conveniently in Texas.
Oh god Science,
Xbone Stormsurgezz
GorillaTicTacs
Member
+231|6683|Kyiv, Ukraine

SgtHeihn wrote:

Also I i hear one more person say their were not WMD in Iraq, I'm going to flip:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of … estruction

Nuclear, Biological or CHEMICAL............
We found stock piles of Chemical weapons, IE WMDs, and who knows if their are nuke their or not, there are alot of holes in the desert, and alot of problems get buried in those holes.

We are still finding things today.
Dude, quit posting that Wiki link, it just proves you can't read.  It says the opposite of what you're trying to say so passionately.  It also says scientists proved that people that listen to former Senator Santorum and FoxNews about WMD are idiots that hear only what they want to hear.
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7151|Cologne, Germany

well, as far as the legal status of the attack on Iraq is concerned, since congress approved all military action, the war is certainly legal according to US law. All constitutional requirements were fulfilled.

Even if you argue that the reasons for war were false and that congress was lied to about the WMD's, that doesn't take away the fact that due process was followed when the decision to attack Iraq was made. If you wanted to argue against the reasons for going to war, you'd have to do so before a court, in this case probably the supreme court. But as far as I know, that hasn't happened yet.

The war is certainly not legal under the UN charter, since there was no attack on US soil conducted by Iraqi forces. Arguing that Iraq posed a threat to the US is ridiculous. But the UN charter doesn't matter here, because it cannot, or rather, will not be enforced anyway. In the end, all that really matters is every nation's right to protect its interests. And if that includes war, then so be it, as long as that country's laws are obeyed when the decision is made.

In other words: A soldier cannot argue that a war is illegal if his elected government has followed due process during the decision. It is not for the soldier to decide who to fight. He follows orders issued by the elected government. Democracy is a beautiful thing, isn't it ? Everybody gets the government he/she deserves....

Thus, although I admire the man's courage to stick to what he believes in, and although I personally consider the war in Iraq illegal too, he most likely has no chance legally.
Since Congress approved it, technically the war in Iraq is legal, at least according to US law.

Illegal orders are something completely different and have nothing to do with the legal status of the war as a whole. As outlined previously, if he had received an illegal order, it would have been his right, no, his duty to disobey.
But as far as I can tell, that hasn't been the case, so his ass will most likely be locked up.

Anyone who thinks that the war is illegal or based on false information should go to the guys who approved it, not let his comrades down. As an officer, he has a responsibility towards the men under his command. It would have been his job to lead them and do all he possibly can to bring them home safely. If you ask me, he is letting them down. 'Cause lord knows, they will go...

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