BF2S Forums A soldiers refusal to go to war

the war IS criminal. This man is a hero

he is a damn pussy.

the war is NOT illegal. even if the offial reason to go to war was chemical weapons plants, and they didn't find any, it isn't illegal. a nation does NOT need to file any reason, why they would want to declare war against another country. that is their right as an independant nation. the only thing they need to go to war, is the WILL to do so..

he has brought shame to the US military, and I hope he get treated according to that.

commissargizz wrote:

He did sign up, but we do live in a democracy. So not sure what to think.

In the miltary you can not have democracy.  Think about it for a second, if there was a vote to go to war, everyone would say no about it.

As ATG stated, there are a lot of people who join for an education, but when it comes to war they do not want to go.

I think he should voice his discontent with his right to vote, just like every other American. Other than that he should do the job he committed to do.

ATG wrote:

There are a bunch like him, people who joined hoping for some education and what they got instead was a war.

We have a army of free people who are not conscripts, but once they sign up I don't think they should be able to say what they are going to do or not.

If he just wanted out he could just say he was gay, or sucker punch another trooper one time too many, but no, the coward wants his army college fund money.

I have just one question for him;
Blindfold, ciggerette or both?

kessel! wrote:

the war IS criminal. This man is a hero

pfft, go eat snow you silly Canuck, thats just ignorant.

almost poetic...

First Lieutenant Ehren Watada wrote:

Sure. I think that in March of 2003 when I joined up, I, like many Americans, believed the administration when they said the threat from Iraq was imminent — that there were weapons of mass destruction all throughout Iraq; that there were stockpiles of it; and because of
Saddam Hussein's ties to al-Qaeda and the 9/11 terrorist acts, the threat was imminent and we needed to invade that country immediately in order to neutralize that threat.

You fucking panzy who gives a shit what you think! This   is    the  kind   of   metality   that is going to make us lose this war.  I

I suprised he made it through basic training. Mission before the man, that's the way it is, and anybody with two ounces of common sense can see how it may be that the people in charge may know more about whats going on with those WMD's than the local evening news tells.
God, this guy is so tedious.

ATG wrote:

kessel! wrote:

the war IS criminal. This man is a hero

pfft, go eat snow you silly Canuck, thats just ignorant.

How is that ignorant?  And why do you result to flaming to state your belief?  The war in Iraq was founded under lies and misconceptions.  It's been admitted by the president.  There can be no doubt.  It's time for America to smarten up and get the hell out of there!  "But then there will be chaos..." says the war advocate.  Don't you think there's chaos right now?  It's war.  War is chaos.  I don't have to be a soldier on the front line to know this. 

People are dying in Iraq daily by car-bombs or other acts of destruction.  And if we get out they will probably stop.  The people who are blowing themselves up are the people who's families we destroyed in carpet bombings, and they want revenge.  War doesn't kill terrorists, it creates them.  If we leave, they can't extract revenge on us.  No more death.  Will Iran take over Iraq if we leave?  Maybe.  Will the world be better off now that Saddam is 6 feet under?  Maybe.  Does loitering around in a country, trying to establish a government modeled on our own that is greatly opposed by the people who live there, all the while losing innumerable soldiers to an unjust cause make sense?  No.  It doesn't.

How many of you in this forum have lost family members in either 9/11 or in the recent wars?  Probably not too many, but for those few who were unfortunate enough to lose an irreplaceable part of their families, they're upset.  And it's not hard to figure out why.  You wanted revenge.  And we went to Afghanistan seeking it.  But I almost guarantee that at least 75% of the people who died in the Afghan/Iraqi wars were mere civilians such as yourselves, not those responsible for your families injuries.  They feel the exact same way you do, maybe worse because a family in Iraq may not make enough income to survive if the lead male in the picture is killed.  Would you want to feel responsible for allowing your troops, the defenders of freedom, to kill innocent civilians as a misguided revenge plot?

It's late where I'm located and I'm probably rambling, but do you get the point?  The people of Iraq that attack our soldiers are the ones that lost everything of value in their lives.  They have nothing to lose.  They hold strong to their religious beliefs because that's all they have to keep hope in their lives.  They're not barbaric animals who despise freedom, they're distraught fighters that are just trying to defend their country from a foreign invader.  This man who is going to be the first of many is ahead of his time.  He sees the bigger picture that most Americans do not.  He does not see the senseless violence in Iraq as something necessary in his life.  I think what he's doing is right.  And besides, he admitted in the article that when he joined the military, he was under the belief that Iraq was a threat to the world.  This man supports humanity, which is why he wanted to defend it from a potential threat.  Once the smoke cleared and the true motives revealed themselves, he no longer had the will to take part in the senseless military flop that is now known as Iraq.

(Sorry that was so long.  Have a cookie if you read it all.)

I_invented_BF2 wrote:

he is a damn pussy.

the war is NOT illegal. even if the offial reason to go to war was chemical weapons plants, and they didn't find any, it isn't illegal. a nation does NOT need to file any reason, why they would want to declare war against another country. that is their right as an independant nation. the only thing they need to go to war, is the WILL to do so..

he has brought shame to the US military, and I hope he get treated according to that.

How can you justify attacking a nation with the most advanced military strength in the world for reasons that were lies?  Would you like to go fight in Iraq right now?  Go ahead.  It's not clean violence like BF2...

fadedsteve wrote:

Court Martial/dishonerable discharge! The stiffest penalty/punishment should be sought by the government! 

Yellow bellies like this don't belong amongst heroes who fight/die for their country!

Shameful. . . . absolutely shameful!

Moreover, FUCK THAT GUY! You don't want to fight in a war, THEN DON'T SIGN UP FOR THE FUCKING MILITARY! CUFF AND STUFF THAT TRAITOR!!

He's not a traitor because he didn't hinder his own nation in any way.  I think people such as yourself (forgive me for the stereotype but you sound like a redneck) should take a look at the world and how it works.  This man used his free will and logic to see that the cause is unjust and he does not want to be part of it.  I believe he has the right to exercise his right to publicly announce his disapproval of the war an dact upon his beliefs accordingly.  If he does receive the 6 years in prison, there will be much more discussion on the war.

ATG wrote:

First Lieutenant Ehren Watada wrote:

Sure. I think that in March of 2003 when I joined up, I, like many Americans, believed the administration when they said the threat from Iraq was imminent — that there were weapons of mass destruction all throughout Iraq; that there were stockpiles of it; and because of
Saddam Hussein's ties to al-Qaeda and the 9/11 terrorist acts, the threat was imminent and we needed to invade that country immediately in order to neutralize that threat.

You fucking panzy who gives a shit what you think! This   is    the  kind   of   metality   that is going to make us lose this war.  I

I suprised he made it through basic training. Mission before the man, that's the way it is, and anybody with two ounces of common sense can see how it may be that the people in charge may know more about whats going on with those WMD's than the local evening news tells.
God, this guy is so tedious.

He had the motivation to fight when the cause was just; take out the WMD's that were supposedly stockpiled in locations in Iraq.  He later discoverred that this reason was a lie and the war became unjust.  And how can you say we're winning the war?  We caught Saddam and killed him....so what?  How does that make our country stronger and the world a better place?  It doesn't.  All it means is that there is one less man in the world who had the ability to control a chaotic nation.

ATG wrote:

Fredrik wrote:

kessel! wrote:

the war IS criminal. This man is a hero

And some of the Americans here scares me.

Do you seriously mean this:

I_invented_BF2 wrote:

a nation does NOT need to file any reason, why they would want to declare war against another country. that is their right as an independant nation. the only thing they need to go to war, is the WILL to do so..

??

I believe so.
What reason did Iraq give when they invaded Kuwait, or Soviet Union for Afganistan?


Moral, better not lose a war as ye will be hung by the neck 'till you are _dead dead dead!

Sometimes undeclared wars happen. Big ones.

Do we have to be like other countries or generals?  Being America, we tend to try to influence our self-proclaimed awesomeness and perfection on almost every nation in the world.  Think Cold War.  If we're so great and perfect, why don't we act like it?  In my opinion, every action and/or belief needs a reason.  Otherwise, its useless and/or pointless.

Last edited by Havok (2007-01-03 23:29:49)

kessel! wrote:

the war IS criminal. This man is a hero

I'm curious of your "ideas" as to why this war is criminal. I don't mean that liberal bullshit that everybody and their sister can spout at the drop of a coin. I want an actual reason. Not "George Bush said there's oil", etc. We removed a dictatorship and are attempting to restore order, anti-insurgency wars can take well over 15 years to accomplish. It is people like you that caused us to lose Korea and are going to cause us to lose this.

http://www.thankyoult.org/
lol  asshole

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehren_Watada
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh … army22.xml

Last edited by Kmarion (2007-01-03 23:38:55)

His soul better belong to Jesus, cause his ass belongs to Uncle Sam.

Soldiers are not allowed to reject orders of deployment, only to request their modification.

He signed up being told he should, could, and would die for his country if needed.  Several thousands of troops over 200 years of our history have gone to their graves knowing that in their final battle, they would die trying to slow or divert an enemy... This guy doesn't even want to set foot on the LZ?

He'll do his time in the sandbox, or he'll do it in the brig- one or the other.

Once you sign your papers to join the military, YOUR ASS IS THEIRS!!

You cant start talking shit, making up your own rules as to where you serve. . . You sure as hell dont refuse your assigned deployment! If he was a civilian(which he isn't) he can make these comments as a result of our free speech ammendment. However, he has signed papers authorizing the military to send him wherever they need him.  If he refuses to go, that is a court martial/dishonerable discharge that will probably follow jail time. 

Like I have said before, if he didnt want to potentially go to Iraq, he never should have signed up.  Now that he has, he is a day late and a dollar short . . . . .strap a sack and do your duty just like everyone else in the military!!!

He is a traitor and should be treated/dealt with as such!

I remember a lesson we were taught in basic training in Ft. Leonard Wood in '95.  Not sure if they still teach it the same way...but it was only for about 10 minutes while we were waiting to get smoked again for some stupid shit.  The idea is basically "Do the right thing."  If you are given an order that you feel is illegal, ask for clarification.  If the clarification still sounds like an illegal order you have an obligation to disobey unless lives are in immediate danger if that order is not followed.

In WW2 we established during the Nuremburg trials that an "aggressive war" is a war crime of the highest degree.  Simultaneously, we established that "following orders" is NOT a defense of any kind for a soldier.  We, as Americans, set that standard.  Before Bush took office, any numbnuts going through basic training was given this instruction as well as a 5 minute blurb on how to deal with it.  I don't think that's the case anymore, unfortunately, but I can't say for sure.

Second is this soldier's oath, which ALL soldiers, public servants, and politicians take prior to performing their jobs.  They swear only to uphold the Constitution, with its implied values and principles and directly stated laws.  No more, no less.  They further swear to protect this set of laws and principles with their lives against all enemies foreign and domestic, no more, no less.  If you were paying any sort of attention in the last 6 years, you can see who those enemies are.  I'll give you a hint, it isn't some neutered tin pot dictator half-way around the world or the several million little brown people he ruled over.  It is our domestic terrorists in the administration, using fear tactics to goad a scared American people with bogeymen to accomplish the dismantling of our Constitution piece by piece as well as establish laws that would plunder our natural resources and enrich those that would perpetuate war.

This officer did something more ballsy than I could or did, and I admire his courage.  I simply refused to be promoted in order not to take any larger role in a war that I knew was clearly illegal, which resulted in me getting kicked out with a nice pension.  This was my protest.  Cowardly, yes I sometimes feel that way, but I'm not sitting in a jail cell and I'm free to write my congressmen regularly as well as blurbs in other sites.  I picked my battles, he is choosing his.

From 'They Thought They Were Free'
Full text here - http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote.  All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.  And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

Never again...yeah, right.