noATG wrote:
A plane is standing on a runway that can move (like a giant conveyor
belt). This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's
speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but
in the opposite direction).
Will the plane be able to take off?
OKAY PEOPLE LISTEN
1) IF THE PLANE WAS STATIONARY, IT WOULD CREATE NO LIFT (duh)
2) THE WHEELS DONT PROVIDE THRUST(duh)
3) Since the wheels are freefloating, the treadmill will pass under the plane freely. (minimal friction)
4) the jet engines will provide thrust to counteract the minimal friction, and then once that has been passed it will provide forward movement.
5) the plane will then accelerate, and take off.
anyone that thinks the planes momentum is caused by the wheels is a fucking retard and needs to be banned asap.
1) IF THE PLANE WAS STATIONARY, IT WOULD CREATE NO LIFT (duh)
2) THE WHEELS DONT PROVIDE THRUST(duh)
3) Since the wheels are freefloating, the treadmill will pass under the plane freely. (minimal friction)
4) the jet engines will provide thrust to counteract the minimal friction, and then once that has been passed it will provide forward movement.
5) the plane will then accelerate, and take off.
anyone that thinks the planes momentum is caused by the wheels is a fucking retard and needs to be banned asap.
where the hell are you gonna get a treadmill that big and strong enough to hold a plane?
This thread is still alive... good job ATG!!
Why don't we put a fk'in Airplane on a treadmill and settle this dispute.
Why don't we put a fk'in Airplane on a treadmill and settle this dispute.
how the hell is this 15 pages anyway?
Well, i guess I was wrong... it would take off...
I think the assumption in the question is that the plane would stay stationary, where it would not.
The plane will indeed move forward, generating lift, because the momentum applied to the wheels by the treadmill will match any backwards pull by the treadmill, leaving the jets to provide extra energy, which would propel it forward.
If the treadmill were constantly accelerating, then no, the momentum would never match the backwards pull of the plane, so it wouldn't take off. The question, however is if the treadmill matched the SPEED of the plane... the speed being in relation to earth, not a position on the treadmill, or the speed of the wheels (which would be twice the speed of the plane or the treadmill).
I think the assumption in the question is that the plane would stay stationary, where it would not.
The plane will indeed move forward, generating lift, because the momentum applied to the wheels by the treadmill will match any backwards pull by the treadmill, leaving the jets to provide extra energy, which would propel it forward.
If the treadmill were constantly accelerating, then no, the momentum would never match the backwards pull of the plane, so it wouldn't take off. The question, however is if the treadmill matched the SPEED of the plane... the speed being in relation to earth, not a position on the treadmill, or the speed of the wheels (which would be twice the speed of the plane or the treadmill).
Yes the plane will move forward (and probably take off). initially I thought it wouldn't due to.
But changed my mind to it will take off after reading Heggs explanation, even though he came to a different conclusion (I really don't follow his thought process for the conclusion).
Heggs brought up the idea of bearings in the wheel with no friction, In theory if the plane was sitting on perfectly level ground and the bearings in the wheels where totally frictionless then when the ground starts to move under it, the wheels will just spin and the aircraft will stay in the same place. It doesn't matter if the ground is moving at 1 Kph or a million Kph, the plane will not move.
In the real world there is no such thing as no friction so the plane would start to move backwards with the ground and the wheels would not rotate. So to simulate zero friction the planes engines must create enough trust to break the friction with the bearings in the wheels. On a normal runway thats enough to get the plane to move. Once that is achieved it doesn't matter how fast the conveyor belt moves under the plane, all it will do is make the wheels move faster and the plane will stay in the one spot. Any extra thrust the engine creates will move the plane forward just like on a normal runway.
Try this experiment, get on a treadmill with roller blades. Now turn the treadmill on, you will start to move backwards with the treadmill. Now hold on to the side and keep your feet in the same place (this should use very little effort). Now turn turn the treadmill up slowly to max speed. You should use very little extra strength to stay in one spot. now pull yourself forward, it should be just as easy at whatever speed. In this analogy the wheels on the roller blades are the free spinning wheels of the plane, the treadmill in the conveyor belt runway, you are the plane and your arms holding on to the side and pulling you forward are the force of the engine.
After reading this you suddenly just think as much as the planes engine trust forward the conveyor will pull it back. BUT, the engines of a plane pull the aircraft through the air and the wheels just reduce to the friction with the ground until it can get airborne.ATG wrote:
tracks the plane's speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same
But changed my mind to it will take off after reading Heggs explanation, even though he came to a different conclusion (I really don't follow his thought process for the conclusion).
Heggs brought up the idea of bearings in the wheel with no friction, In theory if the plane was sitting on perfectly level ground and the bearings in the wheels where totally frictionless then when the ground starts to move under it, the wheels will just spin and the aircraft will stay in the same place. It doesn't matter if the ground is moving at 1 Kph or a million Kph, the plane will not move.
In the real world there is no such thing as no friction so the plane would start to move backwards with the ground and the wheels would not rotate. So to simulate zero friction the planes engines must create enough trust to break the friction with the bearings in the wheels. On a normal runway thats enough to get the plane to move. Once that is achieved it doesn't matter how fast the conveyor belt moves under the plane, all it will do is make the wheels move faster and the plane will stay in the one spot. Any extra thrust the engine creates will move the plane forward just like on a normal runway.
Try this experiment, get on a treadmill with roller blades. Now turn the treadmill on, you will start to move backwards with the treadmill. Now hold on to the side and keep your feet in the same place (this should use very little effort). Now turn turn the treadmill up slowly to max speed. You should use very little extra strength to stay in one spot. now pull yourself forward, it should be just as easy at whatever speed. In this analogy the wheels on the roller blades are the free spinning wheels of the plane, the treadmill in the conveyor belt runway, you are the plane and your arms holding on to the side and pulling you forward are the force of the engine.
Nope the speed of the conveyor is inconsequential to to the entire system, No matter how fast the conveyor is traveling it will do very little to slowing the plane (some added friction but very not enough to notice). The wording of the question is only done so to confuse people (which I'll admit, did to me at first).djphetal wrote:
If the treadmill were constantly accelerating, then no, the momentum would never match the backwards pull of the plane, so it wouldn't take off. The question, however is if the treadmill matched the SPEED of the plane... the speed being in relation to earth, not a position on the treadmill, or the speed of the wheels (which would be twice the speed of the plane or the treadmill).
Last edited by DrunkFace (2006-12-28 19:28:36)
The conclusion there I bet, is the treadmill gets crushed.Executiator wrote:
This thread is still alive... good job ATG!!
Why don't we put a fk'in Airplane on a treadmill and settle this dispute.
Yea, my mind has changed as well. The question kinda confused me as well, and the general consensus (I posted this on 4 other forums to see) is that the plane will take off.
Thus, an internet ledgend is born.chaosdragon001 wrote:
(I posted this on 4 other forums to see)
This fucking topic has seen more post on more sites than anything in the history of the web.
No, I didn't start it, I was just first to post it here.
How about an analogy
A boat is trying to go upstream. The stream has a current of 5 kmh and the boat's engine can propel it at 5 kmh on calm water. The boat remains in the same place.
Change the boat to a floatplane and increase the stream's current to match the maximum speed the floatplane can achieve on calm water. The plane remains in the same place.
Now change the stream to a moving tarmac and change the floatplane to a normal plane. The plaine will remain in place.
A boat is trying to go upstream. The stream has a current of 5 kmh and the boat's engine can propel it at 5 kmh on calm water. The boat remains in the same place.
Change the boat to a floatplane and increase the stream's current to match the maximum speed the floatplane can achieve on calm water. The plane remains in the same place.
Now change the stream to a moving tarmac and change the floatplane to a normal plane. The plaine will remain in place.
No the plane wouldnt stay at the same place. A plane use the air to move : the engines suck it to make the plane move. This air is stationary.
In the case of the boat, it uses its blades to move, and its blades use the water which is moving, so the boat wont move its true, but the plane will.
BTW I 100% agree with post #357 from DrunkFace, everything is right IMO.
In the case of the boat, it uses its blades to move, and its blades use the water which is moving, so the boat wont move its true, but the plane will.
BTW I 100% agree with post #357 from DrunkFace, everything is right IMO.
No, plane doesn't move, no air flow, no suction on top of wings.
lol I like when, at the end of a discussion, someone that hasnt read 2 posts of the thread, comes and say something that bring us back again to the beginning...
Read it again the tread mill tracks the planes speed so if the plane never moves forward the tread mill will never start turning, It has been shown that the plane will take off, think about a missile being launched from a jet fighter in flight, the missile screams away it does not stay tucked up under the fighter it is pretty much the same principalATG wrote:
A plane is standing on a runway that can move (like a giant conveyor
belt). This conveyor has a control system that tracks the plane's
speed and tunes the speed of the conveyor to be exactly the same (but
in the opposite direction).
Will the plane be able to take off?
Conclusion: The plane will take off, given that the tires won't tear up due to the double "ground" speed. Or.. ..we go back to page 9 and try my theory. Either way the plane will fly. With supadupa tires that won't break at 400+mph (take off speed of e.g an MD-11 is ~200mph)
Last edited by DonFck (2006-12-29 00:53:38)
I need around tree fiddy.
Jesus christ 5 pages in this damn thread? (high pagination, anything over 1 page is incredulous)
ATG, correct me if I'm wrong, but:
ATG, correct me if I'm wrong, but:
I actually quoted it from here, and well... apparently some of the members have already discussed this on 150+ page threads, with no answer. So this isn't that bad.ATG wrote:
Thus, an internet ledgend is born.chaosdragon001 wrote:
(I posted this on 4 other forums to see)
This fucking topic has seen more post on more sites than anything in the history of the web.
No, I didn't start it, I was just first to post it here.
Heres a funny one... have fun.
http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthr … =treadmill
Last edited by chaosdragon001 (2006-12-29 01:32:31)
tomato?Coolbeano wrote:
Jesus christ 5 pages in this damn thread? (high pagination, anything over 1 page is incredulous)
ATG, correct me if I'm wrong, but:
http://img4.picsplace.to/img4/27/staionary.GIF
http://img4.picsplace.to/img4/27/TOMATo.GIF
im gonna keep posting this til everyone actually reads it and stops being dumbnorge wrote:
OKAY PEOPLE LISTEN
1) IF THE PLANE WAS STATIONARY, IT WOULD CREATE NO LIFT (duh)
2) THE WHEELS DONT PROVIDE THRUST(duh)
3) Since the wheels are freefloating, the treadmill will pass under the plane freely. (minimal friction)
4) the jet engines will provide thrust to counteract the minimal friction, and then once that has been passed it will provide forward movement.
5) the plane will then accelerate, and take off.
anyone that thinks the planes momentum is caused by the wheels is a fucking retard and needs to be banned asap.
Yes, my point is that the point is that the plane doesn't move, so it might as well be 'would a plane on a tomato generate any lift'. Of course a very heavy, large tomato strong enough to keep the plane in place.<<<FTDM>>>Gen.Raven wrote:
tomato?Coolbeano wrote:
Jesus christ 5 pages in this damn thread? (high pagination, anything over 1 page is incredulous)
ATG, correct me if I'm wrong, but:
http://img4.picsplace.to/img4/27/staionary.GIF
http://img4.picsplace.to/img4/27/TOMATo.GIF
THAT'S NOT AN AIRPLANE, IT'S A CAR WITH WINGS.viper313 wrote:
I can't believe this is still being discussed. I have already proven it. See the link above!viper313 wrote:
OK here it is. Proof of the airplane on a treadmill.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … &hl=en
If you don't understand my point in saying that then you can't understand the whole concept.
You are flawed whoever taught you that there is suction in producing lift is wrong unless it is the suction of a propeller which drives air over a wing which produces the smallest amount of lift. The wing is pushed up not sucked up.greenhaven wrote:
No, plane doesn't move, no air flow, no suction on top of wings.
You yourself are being dumb by spamming a topic and are ignoring other peoples point of view. You FAIL at proper discussion . Keep it nice and responsible or people wont take you seriously.norge wrote:
im gonna keep posting this til everyone actually reads it and stops being dumbnorge wrote:
OKAY PEOPLE LISTEN
1) IF THE PLANE WAS STATIONARY, IT WOULD CREATE NO LIFT (duh)
2) THE WHEELS DONT PROVIDE THRUST(duh)
3) Since the wheels are freefloating, the treadmill will pass under the plane freely. (minimal friction)
4) the jet engines will provide thrust to counteract the minimal friction, and then once that has been passed it will provide forward movement.
5) the plane will then accelerate, and take off.
anyone that thinks the planes momentum is caused by the wheels is a fucking retard and needs to be banned asap.
yeah....DrunkFace wrote:
Nope the speed of the conveyor is inconsequential to to the entire system, No matter how fast the conveyor is traveling it will do very little to slowing the plane (some added friction but very not enough to notice). The wording of the question is only done so to confuse people (which I'll admit, did to me at first).
i'm so confused.
But it could take off.
Last edited by djphetal (2006-12-29 02:06:33)