Sk
stat padding is for girls
+41|6606

RoosterCantrell wrote:

A jet must move forward to create lift.  The jet engines are creating thrust to move the plane forward.  once the plane gains enough speed, the airflow under the wings will LIFT the plane up as the plane is jet thrusted forward, The wheels are crucial, because they provide a method of moving the wieght of the plane with little energy, as opposed to being without wheels, the plane would just slowly spark across the runway.  So, a Treadmill negating the ability of the wheels to provide a energy efficient way of moving the aircraft.   

Think of a boat. water=wheels. A boat can be moved with an oar in water. But on land. the boats right there. not going anywhere. remove the water(wheels) you are screwed. ITs like rowing against the flow of the river. you need alot more energy to overcome the flow of water, more than a jet aircraft can handle. But not a rocket.

The jet engines do not fly a plane. they do not have the power alone, they need lift.  NOw, IF a rocket or missile had wheels and on a treadmill, it would launch without a problem. A rocket or missile flys soley on its boosting engine, its wings only for steering purposes.  The plane is pushed by its engines, but needs speed to take off Speed=airflow under the wings.   A treadmill is a belt, simply. anyone who has ever been around a belted machine knows that belts create limited airflow, not enough for this theroy to do any good.

A plane with its engines thrusting to make the aircraft move 250KPH ON ITS WHEELS, while the treadmill going 250KPH goingthe opposite way, negates the planes movement.  if the plane was going 249KPH, and the Treadmill was going 250KPH, the plane would move slowly backwards.   THE WHEELS ARE VITAL to roll the plane forward from the thrust of the engines forward to gain speed to create ariflow under the wings. 

PUSH A HEAVY CART! its hard to get it started, but once you do, its easy. ITS MOMENTUM,  the plane flies once the wheels have helped the plane to gather momentum at takeoff! The plane MUST HAVE FORWARD MOMENTUM to achieve sufficient airflow
but the key, and I do mean KEY, difference between a boat and a plane is this:

the boat's hull is sitting in / on the water. The hull is not able to rotate along with the flowing water.
Also, the boat is powered by the oar.. which uses friction within the water to create power.

A plane's hull is not sitting on the ground - it is sitting on wheels, which are able to rotate along with the moving treadmill.
If the plane's hull, which cannot rotate, was sitting on the treadmill, then the plane would go backwards, as the thrust required to move such a large object would be too immense.
Also, the plane is powered by it's jets, which do not use friction with the treadmill to create power.

I've not ever said it won't require MORE force, but the extra force required would not be that great, as all it would have to overcome would be the friction of the wheels rotating.
Towelly
It's A State Of Mind
+399|6808|Your attic
Does no-one else see the insanity of this topic?

Is this just one big joke that I'm not in on?

Or have you all descended into the depths of internet hell?
RoosterCantrell
Goodbye :)
+399|6697|Somewhere else

Towelly wrote:

Does no-one else see the insanity of this topic?

Is this just one big joke that I'm not in on?

Or have you all descended into the depths of internet hell?
it just wouldn't take off! It would simply stay put! Towelly, IT.WOULD.STAY.PUT.
Sk
stat padding is for girls
+41|6606

RoosterCantrell wrote:

"you push the car with exactly the same force you did previously."

And what did you use to guage this exact same force?
lol.. this isn't a scientific experiment - it's an example.

I, for one, can ROUGHLY judge how much pressure I am exerting through my fingers, much in the same way I can expect most people can.

if I could precisely use the EXACT same amount of pressure each single time I pushed the car, then I'd expect to get exactly the same results every time.
But I cant, and I dont, and I didnt.
what I DID get was ALL POSITIVE, FORWARD MOVEMENT figures in the same ballpark area.. which should be, and IS enough to prove that forward momentum is possible..

if I was only moving the car, say 5-10cm each time, then I'd say that I was wrong, and that the plane would not move.
If I was moving the car all over the place (from 0 to 30cm), then I'd say I couldn't roughly exert the same pressure more than once, and the example was pointless.


stop being pedantic and try it out yourself
Towelly
It's A State Of Mind
+399|6808|Your attic

RoosterCantrell wrote:

Towelly wrote:

Does no-one else see the insanity of this topic?

Is this just one big joke that I'm not in on?

Or have you all descended into the depths of internet hell?
it just wouldn't take off! It would simply stay put! Towelly, IT.WOULD.STAY.PUT.
I couldn't give two shits if it stood up and started humping the nearest Learjet.

Last edited by Towelly (2006-12-28 16:51:44)

Sk
stat padding is for girls
+41|6606
heh.. and ANOTHER analogy for you to read and hopefully, finally, get it

imagine you're on a skateboard, at the top of a steep hill.
one side of the hill is made of one big treadmill, which is rotating in such a way as to pull objects up the hill.
the other side, at exactly the same gradient, is just made of normal, none-moving concrete.

As you skate down the concrete side, your wheels achieve a maximum speed of 20mph and you eventually come to a halt at the bottom after 60 seconds.

you climb back up and this time go down the treadmill side.
your wheels reach a speed of 600mph, and you hit the bottom after 63 seconds.

The three second difference has been added by the increase in friction the skateboard wheels were creating as you went down the hill.
The reason your wheels hit 600mph, is because the treadmill increased it's rotational speed as your skateboard wheels did.

but how did you get down? Gravity pulled you down.
But why, as the treadmill should have pushed me back up? The force of Gravity is not affected by the treadmill in the slightest.


the thrust of the aircraft is affected in exactly the same way the force of gravity was effected in the above example.... IT WASNT.... so the damn plane would move, just like the skateboard did!


physics 101
RoosterCantrell
Goodbye :)
+399|6697|Somewhere else

Sk wrote:

stop being pedantic and try it out yourself
Im looking into it at this moment.  Perhaps I am wrond I'll admit if I am, but I feel I am not

MY doubts, and my reasons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_%28force%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_equation

you must be moving forward to create lift. Speed + direction.


EDIT AND!:

http://home.comcast.net/~clipper-108/lift.htm

Last edited by RoosterCantrell (2006-12-28 17:02:02)

l41e
Member
+677|6865

https://mijnposter.nl/thumbs/496/044s.jpeg

Planes on an aircraft carrier catapult. Without the catapult, the planes would flop off the end of the carrier and go splash. The surface from which a fixed-wing aircraft is launched affects its lift.
Sk
stat padding is for girls
+41|6606

RoosterCantrell wrote:

Sk wrote:

stop being pedantic and try it out yourself
Im looking into it at this moment.  Perhaps I am wrond I'll admit if I am, but I feel I am not

MY doubts, and my reasons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_%28force%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli%27s_equation

you must be moving forward to create lift. Speed + direction.


EDIT AND!:

http://home.comcast.net/~clipper-108/lift.htm
you don't need to be moving forward to create lift at all..
you need air flowing over an object faster than it is flowing under it (roughly speaking).
you can create lift by holding a model aircraft wing perfectly still in a wind tunnel.

BUT...
in this example, I've not said the plane will not be moving forward.
Quite the opposite....

what I am stating is that the plane WILL move forward, as it is powered by the jet engines, which do not generate forward momentum by turning the aircraft wheels.

the aircraft wheels are free to rotate on their own.

this is the key bit of physics that so many people here are just not grasping. the treadmill has no direct affect on the thrust generated by the jet.. so it cannot, and does not affect how quickly the jet will move forward.
YES, the wheels will generate SOME friction force, but it'll be so negligable, it'll be just the same as tying a plane to a stationary runway with a few bits of twine!
l41e
Member
+677|6865

Sk wrote:

in this example, I've not said the plane will not be moving forward.
ATG, the thread creator, did and that's what we're talking about. Not your example.
Sk
stat padding is for girls
+41|6606

k30dxedle wrote:

http://mijnposter.nl/thumbs/496/044s.jpeg

Planes on an aircraft carrier catapult. Without the catapult, the planes would flop off the end of the carrier and go splash. The surface from which a fixed-wing aircraft is launched affects its lift.
no.. the airspeed over it's wings affects it's lift.

the reason they flop over the edge is because they are not generating enough lift.
to help them achieve this goal, they are assited by a catapult.

However, you cannot bring this to the table, as it is totally irrelavent.
Sk
stat padding is for girls
+41|6606

k30dxedle wrote:

Sk wrote:

in this example, I've not said the plane will not be moving forward.
ATG, the thread creator, did and that's what we're talking about. Not your example.
point me to the comment where ATG states that the plane will not be moving forward?

All I can see is that he says the conveyor belt will be moving at the same speed as the jet... which has no bearing on the forward momentum of the jet.... BECAUSE IT DOESNT USE ITS WHEELS TO MOVE FORWARD!
parth
Member
+10|6645

Dezerteagal5 wrote:

If you melt dry ice can you swim without getting wet??
1. You'd freeze solid.
2. Yes. Water is adhesive, so it clings to you (it is a polar molecule), while CO2 is nonpolar and therefore Cohesive, so it wouldn't stay on you when you left.
Towelly
It's A State Of Mind
+399|6808|Your attic
I would give my left pinky for ATG to delete this post.

I'll mail it to you in a cooler as well.
Sk
stat padding is for girls
+41|6606
....no-ones forcing you to read it.....
l41e
Member
+677|6865

Forget it. I'm going to leave it at "it depends" and leave this thread. Go call the MythBusters if you think you're right and want proof.
Towelly
It's A State Of Mind
+399|6808|Your attic

Sk wrote:

....no-ones forcing you to read it.....
It being on the frontpage (which I do full well realise I am furthering by posting) forces me to read it.

Everything you say will be ignored by people that think otherwise and you will ignore everyone that differs from your own viewpoint.

This already pointless thread has now become a rather sick puppy, and deserves to be put down.
Sk
stat padding is for girls
+41|6606
good night
heggs
Spamalamadingdong
+581|6605|New York
we've only got a couple hundred more pages to go, lets keep it going.

i for one, changed my mind, after thinking it through and being adamately opposed to the idea of the plane flying. try a couple experiments out to prove to yourself that it will move forward and will get airspeed and ultimately, lift.

edit: i also want to thank everyone for keeping things civil and not tossing names at one another. i gotta say i'm impressed.

Last edited by heggs (2006-12-28 17:22:41)

Remember Me As A Time Of Day
Sk
stat padding is for girls
+41|6606

heggs wrote:

edit: i also want to thank everyone for keeping things civil and not tossing names at one another. i gotta say i'm impressed.
shut it cockend!


Last edited by Sk (2006-12-28 17:24:30)

RoosterCantrell
Goodbye :)
+399|6697|Somewhere else

k30dxedle wrote:

Forget it. I'm going to leave it at "it depends" and leave this thread. Go call the MythBusters if you think you're right and want proof.
OOOOH I seriously like that idea!
l41e
Member
+677|6865

heggs wrote:

edit: i also want to thank everyone for keeping things civil and not tossing names at one another. i gotta say i'm impressed.
That's rarely ever happened. I as well am impressed.

Oh, and I take back my comment about leaving this thread. I'll be back tomorrow.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6746|Global Command

Towelly wrote:

I would give my left pinky for ATG to delete this post.

I'll mail it to you in a cooler as well.
Send me a certified letter, notorized, that your finger has been severed, along with a doctors note and video of the act and consider it done.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6746|Global Command

Valium500mg. wrote:

I just had an epiphany, ATG said the tread mill would respond to forward momentum of the plane so if the plane could never move forward the tread mill would never start!! is that smoke coming from your ears
Actually, the point many seem to miss is that the treadmill is timed to match the speed of the airplanes wheels, no matter how fast the accelerate.
confused
Member
+10|6611|British Columbia
Has anyone ever been able to run off the front of a treadmill?

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