So are you saying that abortions don't leave physical, social, or psychological scars?soldevilla13 wrote:
...they have seen many 13-18 year olds that, if they had children, would have the rest of thier life destroyed. Thier life would be physically, socially, and psychologically scarred if they didnt have an abortion...
Pages: 1 2
- Index »
- Community »
- Debate and Serious Talk »
- The Soon-to-be Infamous Abortion Thread....
I agree with you for the most part (I'm pro-choice), but the point of this thread was not to debate whether abortion is right or wrong. We're discussing what would have to happen to have a functional society without the legal option of abortion....soldevilla13 wrote:
First of all, i'm democrat (bite me), Second of all, i do believe that most democrats believe that abortion should not be outlawed. Third of all, my parents were both doctors, and they have seen many 13-18 year olds that, if they had children, would have the rest of thier life destroyed. Thier life would be physically, socially, and psychologically scarred if they didnt have an abortion. I feel that it is the choice of the girl and the doctor to decide whether the girl should have an abortion. We have given up enough freedoms already, that if we don't draw a line somewhere, the government will get farther and farther out of control. As one of the smartest men once said, "A nation that gives up a little freedom to gain a little security will deserve niether, and lose both." (benjamin franklin); our counrty has already given up a little freedom... is it safe to say that we will lose both security and freedom? is it safe to say that a funny little quip thought up around 200 years ago will actaully come true (reminiscent of the guy who foretold 9/11,sry blanking on that name).
MY POINT IS THAT IF WE GIVE UP THIS FREEDOM, HOW MANY FREEDOMS WILL THEN BE TAKEN FROM US?
Well, they can hope all they wan't, they just fail.san4 wrote:
I'm sure the people who want abortion banned don't think it will increase the number of unwanted children. They hope it will stop people from having sex.
What about the social impact of the heartless slaughter that is modern whimsical abortion?Point&Shoot wrote:
Another point to consider is all the women who could require an abortion as a medical necessity where carrying the pregnancy to term could be fatal. Then of course there is rape and incest pregnancies to consider. The repercussions of an abortion ban would also have further social impact other than more babies put up for adoption.
A bit on the defensive, are we?soldevilla13 wrote:
First of all, i'm democrat (bite me)
Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-12-14 22:41:36)
I love living in Europe where abortion is not even a political issue. It is what it should be, a routine medical procedure for under 3 months pregnant and only performed for life and death situations after 3 months. Europeans, especially Eastern Europeans, got some very hard lessons learned about this during the reign of various dictators. In Romania especially, an total abortion ban was imposed in the late 1960's, along with a ban on birth control (the right-wing fundie dream).
Result #1 - For about 2 years, the abortion rate went way down. The birth rate ballooned. Orphanages were FLOODED and to this day there is an underclass of people that were only raised in horrific orphanages that are now age 30 to 32, they are generally criminals and/or day laborers with no basic human sense.
Result #2 - After 2 years, the birth rate returned to normal. The population adapted. Abortions were now performed in secret and under horrific conditions AND even married couples stopped having sex so often so as to avoid this. Suicide rates among men sky-rocketed as well as women, dying mysteriously. Older people here still talk about this. Everybody has a friend or relative that this happened to or was effected by this...rendered infertile by excessive dirty abortions, depression and alcoholism due to miserable marriage with no sex, etc.
Result #3 - Because safe-sex and abortion became taboo topics for their parents' generation, Romanian kids today have absolutely no clue or moral compass regarding this. Dialogue between parents and children regarding sex and sexual behavior is nil. Despite virulent marketing, condom use is still extremely low and the abortion rate is now higher than ever, being at the top of the menu for around $60 at most ob-gyn clinics.
Compare this to my experience living in Germany, where they have always been "liberal" with sexuality, abortions are possible but nearly unheard of, kids talk (almost too honestly) with their parents about sex, condom use was never an issue, birth control pills are taken religiously, almost all pregnancies are "planned" and therefore "wanted" leading to generally a very healthy family dynamic.
I guess the bottom line is this, the reality check:
1) People choose when and how many children they want to have, one way or another they will find a way.
2) Some teenagers will become sexually active no matter what you tell them.
3) No parent can be forced to care for a child they didn't want. Yes, there are women that don't want kids and don't think they are "precious gifts from God". Get over it.
4) Honest dialogue and education encourages and reinforces responsible sexual behavior. Using outright lies and false statements to coerce responsible sexual behavior fails as soon as it hits the first reality barrier.
5) Sex is part of a healthy marriage no matter how religious or conservative you are. Penalizing sex or framing it for ONLY reproductive purpose is very unwise and not pro-family.
6) Any government policy to control population by forcing abortions (like China) or banning abortions (like some US states) is morally reprehensible and generally not enforceable anyways, all you can effectively control this way is the safety of the procedure.
Any policy or mindset that does not take the above into account is doomed to failure.
Result #1 - For about 2 years, the abortion rate went way down. The birth rate ballooned. Orphanages were FLOODED and to this day there is an underclass of people that were only raised in horrific orphanages that are now age 30 to 32, they are generally criminals and/or day laborers with no basic human sense.
Result #2 - After 2 years, the birth rate returned to normal. The population adapted. Abortions were now performed in secret and under horrific conditions AND even married couples stopped having sex so often so as to avoid this. Suicide rates among men sky-rocketed as well as women, dying mysteriously. Older people here still talk about this. Everybody has a friend or relative that this happened to or was effected by this...rendered infertile by excessive dirty abortions, depression and alcoholism due to miserable marriage with no sex, etc.
Result #3 - Because safe-sex and abortion became taboo topics for their parents' generation, Romanian kids today have absolutely no clue or moral compass regarding this. Dialogue between parents and children regarding sex and sexual behavior is nil. Despite virulent marketing, condom use is still extremely low and the abortion rate is now higher than ever, being at the top of the menu for around $60 at most ob-gyn clinics.
Compare this to my experience living in Germany, where they have always been "liberal" with sexuality, abortions are possible but nearly unheard of, kids talk (almost too honestly) with their parents about sex, condom use was never an issue, birth control pills are taken religiously, almost all pregnancies are "planned" and therefore "wanted" leading to generally a very healthy family dynamic.
I guess the bottom line is this, the reality check:
1) People choose when and how many children they want to have, one way or another they will find a way.
2) Some teenagers will become sexually active no matter what you tell them.
3) No parent can be forced to care for a child they didn't want. Yes, there are women that don't want kids and don't think they are "precious gifts from God". Get over it.
4) Honest dialogue and education encourages and reinforces responsible sexual behavior. Using outright lies and false statements to coerce responsible sexual behavior fails as soon as it hits the first reality barrier.
5) Sex is part of a healthy marriage no matter how religious or conservative you are. Penalizing sex or framing it for ONLY reproductive purpose is very unwise and not pro-family.
6) Any government policy to control population by forcing abortions (like China) or banning abortions (like some US states) is morally reprehensible and generally not enforceable anyways, all you can effectively control this way is the safety of the procedure.
Any policy or mindset that does not take the above into account is doomed to failure.
Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2006-12-15 01:18:01)
Develop a 'rapid aging' technology and get them out on the battlefields of Iraq ASAP.
As an aside. Abortion is completely illegal in the Republic of Ireland and doesn't seem like it will ever be legalised. We've had several referendums on the issue.
As an aside. Abortion is completely illegal in the Republic of Ireland and doesn't seem like it will ever be legalised. We've had several referendums on the issue.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-12-15 01:35:46)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4350259.stm
In regards to Ireland's neighbors...
http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/hist.html
It seems quite clear that a woman can anonymously and easily travel to Britain to obtain an abortion if desired. Cases do come before Irish courts when she is found out and challenged by a 3rd party, but I'm assuming this is quite rare in practice. From the summary, I can safely conclude that Irish stance on abortion, though a bit backwards, is not heavily enforced as I believe anyone can freely travel across the border (or to the other island, if you will) to obtain one if so desired. A woman's right to do so has only been challenged 6 times in the course of almost 20 years, and I have a real difficult time believing that only 6 Irish women in 20 years desired to have abortions.
By making it illegal in your home turf, while knowing full well that a neighboring area allows it, and then allowing free and practical travel to and from said neighbor, the politicians have effectively washed their hands of the entire issue and kept everyone relatively happy. Case X being especially telling in this policy:
In regards to Ireland's neighbors...
And here it can be found about Ireland's history in regards to abortion -Does the law apply in Northern Ireland?
The Act does not extend to Northern Ireland, where the law has been less clear. Many women travel to Britain for abortions.
http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/hist.html
It seems quite clear that a woman can anonymously and easily travel to Britain to obtain an abortion if desired. Cases do come before Irish courts when she is found out and challenged by a 3rd party, but I'm assuming this is quite rare in practice. From the summary, I can safely conclude that Irish stance on abortion, though a bit backwards, is not heavily enforced as I believe anyone can freely travel across the border (or to the other island, if you will) to obtain one if so desired. A woman's right to do so has only been challenged 6 times in the course of almost 20 years, and I have a real difficult time believing that only 6 Irish women in 20 years desired to have abortions.
By making it illegal in your home turf, while knowing full well that a neighboring area allows it, and then allowing free and practical travel to and from said neighbor, the politicians have effectively washed their hands of the entire issue and kept everyone relatively happy. Case X being especially telling in this policy:
This, unfortunately, isn't effective in the US, as fundies in one area may get a ban in their state, but people can freely travel to a neighboring state to obtain one...leaving the grand theocratic prize still at the national level.- 1992 (Feb) | The X Case
Costello J. granted an injunction in the High Court preventing a pregnant 14-year-old rape victim from leaving Ireland to have an abortion in England. Amid public outcry, the Supreme Court overturned his decision two weeks later to allow her to go, ruling that "if it is established . . . that there is a real and substantial risk to the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother, which can only be avoided by the termination of her pregnancy, such termination is permissible."
Here, the Court held that there was a real and substantial risk of suicide if the pregnancy continued; thus the termination was permissible, even in Ireland. However, where no such risk existed, both information and possibly travel could be prevented in the interest of safeguarding the right to life of the 'unborn'. The Government then entered a Declaration to the Protocol, saying that they would not use it to restrict travel or information.
if the US were to ban abortions I'm sure Mexico would be happy to legalise it, and tourists would sink the country
ƒ³
No, they think it will stop people from being total morons, fucking each other without using the pill or a condom, at least thats what I think. Im more against abortion unless the mother is in danger or the child is proven to have a mental disease before birth.san4 wrote:
I'm sure the people who want abortion banned don't think it will increase the number of unwanted children. They hope it will stop people from having sex.
Banning the legal use of abortion results in the use of this:
Increased social programs means stripping funding off of other programs, such as the resource hog Defense. The tide of unwanted children would be extremely resource heavy, and would cause all of the controlling politicians and treasurers to really reflect on monetary management, rather than just calling up new bonds and budgets and worrying about paying it all off later (or in our case, leaving all the expenditures to Us while they go off and retire and die without ever having to pay a cent of the cost of what they lobbied for).
Increased social programs means stripping funding off of other programs, such as the resource hog Defense. The tide of unwanted children would be extremely resource heavy, and would cause all of the controlling politicians and treasurers to really reflect on monetary management, rather than just calling up new bonds and budgets and worrying about paying it all off later (or in our case, leaving all the expenditures to Us while they go off and retire and die without ever having to pay a cent of the cost of what they lobbied for).
cannon fodder in future wars
I honestly don't think there will be any children added to the system. A ban on abortion will force women who do not want to complete their pregnancy to go to any tom, dick and harry that thinks they know how to abort a baby. A ban on abortion will end up killing more than it saves. My two cents.
You guys see that movie Soldier with Kurt Russell? Make them all super soldiers. Problem solved, America takes over the world and then the galaxy.
......Dare I say it?....Yeah....
With all those extra orphans, the government could sweep them all up and start....The SPARTAN project.
With all those extra orphans, the government could sweep them all up and start....The SPARTAN project.
I think he's pointing out a lesser of two drastic evils. Most teenagers arn't physically mature enough to safely carry a healthly baby to term, even with the correct supplements (Protein pills, vitamin pills etc). I'm pro-abortion on this delicate topic, but I still think that as a casual choice it is a highly irreponsible course of action to take. I'm against the 'OMG I'm pregnant, oh well, I'll just nip down and get an abortion' route that some have been known to take, but if the mother was going to have an because of something that wasn't her fault, like being raped, or something medical, then I believe that would be a better reason for abortion than the 'Im invincible' attitude to sex some younger teens have.Point&Shoot wrote:
So are you saying that abortions don't leave physical, social, or psychological scars?soldevilla13 wrote:
...they have seen many 13-18 year olds that, if they had children, would have the rest of thier life destroyed. Thier life would be physically, socially, and psychologically scarred if they didnt have an abortion...
Ask Ceaucescu how that worked out for Romania...or himself.......Dare I say it?....Yeah....
With all those extra orphans, the government could sweep them all up and start....The SPARTAN project.
The "Christian Right" has a complete agenda and the leadership of the movement is more than happy to talk about it. Bans on abortion, removal and replacement of science in schools, and relegating homosexuals to 2nd-class citizen status is just the beginning. They really do want a theocracy in America with a legion of God's soldiers ready for the apocalypse (sic). In just the sexual arena, they want these things not necessarily in this order -
1) Legal ban on all abortions.
2) Legal ban on all sexual relations that doesn't lead to pro-creation.
3) Legal ban on all forms of birth control.
4) Legal ban on porn and sex toys because of the belief that they detract from marriage.
5) Legal ban on sex outside of marriage.
6) Legal ban on all sexual education that is not church mandated.
7) Legal ban on divorce except in extraordinary circumstances.
They have succeeded on each and every one of these points in at least 1 or more states. The point is that they have a very methodical, long-term, and easy to understand agenda. The rapture is coming and they need as many Christian soldiers for the big showdown with Satan as they can get. Little brown heathens the world over are out-reproducing us good Christian white folks.
They might think that.....san4 wrote:
I'm sure the people who want abortion banned don't think it will increase the number of unwanted children. They hope it will stop people from having sex.
Pages: 1 2
- Index »
- Community »
- Debate and Serious Talk »
- The Soon-to-be Infamous Abortion Thread....