BF2S Forums Convicted killer took 34 minutes to die

This thread scares me.... this shit is why I'm getting TFO of this country ASAP as soon as I have the money to

When was the last time you heard a anti-war hippy telling a general what to do?  Probably never.  And it shouldn't happen...

Likewise, people who are not involved with the system of the DEATH PENALTY cannot be expected to fully know what it's about.  Sure, it's a simple system that everyone understands... or is it?  Experts agree, and people who are actually involved in the system, that it is broken, and should ultimately be banned.

Here are some major opposing arguments :

1. If we don't execute murderers, murder rates will increase

WRONG.  It's been proven, time and time again, that the death penalty has no effect on preventing violent crimes and murders.  F*cked up people will do f*cked up things. 

Also, in addition to the above fact, it's been proven that a very good percentage of murders are spontaneous acts of violence, not premediated.  A fourth grader could comprehend that that means the murderer isn't thinking about "Oh, know, they're going to execute me 10 years from now!", they're actually thinking "Die, you motherf*cker, die...".

Making the argument that a guy DIDN'T kill his wife who cheated on him because he was scared of being executed is borderline aburdity.

2. It costs more to keep murderers alive for life sentences, than to just execute them.

WRONG.  Because of the way the system works, as people have said, it takes sometimes 20-25 years to get a prisoner executed.  Why?  Because quite frankly, there is a startling number of prisoners sentenced to death, who later end up being proven not guilty with new evidence.  Plus, paying for lawyers, judges, etc., sometimes actually makes the execution process more expensive than just throwing them away for the rest of their lives.

3. They deserve it.

Okay, so what?  Do you honestly believe that governments should be playing god with people in their own custody?  Jesus Christ, they will be locked away for the rest of their lives, and instead you want to give them the quick way out? 

Here's an idea : how about loving thy enemy?  How about treating HUMAN BEINGS in prison the same as treating HUMAN BEINGS in regular society.  Or is that too much to ask?  You say they should be put to death, because they killed, yet YOU aren't the doctor who has to inject them with poison while they're clamped to a table.  Would you want to do that for a profession?  Put other human beings to death, when they have no way of physically defending themselves? 

Conclusion : ANY person who advocates the death penalty, unless their genuinely insane, is a hypocrite.  The system is sick, and society as a whole should be moving away from it.  People who don't know, nor take the time to understand how the system works, advocate it, while people who know, and have worked for the system for years, know a lot of it is bullshit, and ultimately, what is it worth?  Is killing a killer going to help the problem?

Bottom line, this thread really does scare me.  This is one of those issues which is debated so little, you can see the effect the lack of debate and discussion is causing.  I think if more people who know how the system worked became activists, and more discussion occured between people, the facts would come out.  But this issue is just another one which probably won't change peoples minds, and it is a growing symbol of our isolation from facts, real issues, and discussion/debate with eachother about the issue itself.

WWJD?  Not murder murderers.  Again, I honestly doubt ANYONE here would want to inject poison into a prisoner who's clamped to a table.  Or, even watch it, for that matter. 

I'm sure they'd really advocate the death penalty after that [/sarcasm]

Also, I find it funny how the same people who say the government should stay out of peoples lives also advocate the government putting people to death.  What is more intrusive to a persons life than killing them?  Ignorance is bliss............ the death penalty is just another one of those shitty government attempts to treat a problem, but it doesn't work, hasn't worked, nor will ever work properly.  Instead of asking "What can we do to punish murderers?" people as a whole should be asking "What can we do to prevent PEOPLE, regular, AMERICAN citizens, just like you and me, from becoming MURDERERS in the first place?"

Last edited by Spearhead (2006-12-14 18:00:16)

I put undecided. . . .

If the death penalty were hanging or death by firing squad then I would totally support it.  However, it is done in my state(California) by lethal injection.  Lethal injection costs a lot more than a rope or a bullet, so I dont understand why those have been put aside (as a means of execution).  I find lethal injection a total "cop out", the inmate is essentially sedated and killed, they feel no pain. . . . to me that is not justice!

You murder people, you deserve to feel the pain of a bullet or the snapping of your neck!!! Sorry if you think thats inhumane, I dont give a shit! Inhumane things happen all the time in this world we live in, and no one does shit about it!! If a convicted serial murderer feels pain, I say GOOD!! Fuck him/her, they shouldnt be killing people in the first place, and should feel a similar pain as their victims!!!

fadedsteve wrote:

I put undecided. . . .

If the death penalty were hanging or death by firing squad then I would totally support it.  However, it is done in my state(California) by lethal injection.  Lethal injection costs a lot more than a rope or a bullet, so I dont understand why those have been put aside (as a means of execution).  I find lethal injection a total "cop out", the inmate is essentially sedated and killed, they feel no pain. . . . to me that is not justice!

You murder people, you deserve to feel the pain of a bullet or the snapping of your neck!!! Sorry if you think thats inhumane, I dont give a shit! Inhumane things happen all the time in this world we live in, and no one does shit about it!! If a convicted serial murderer feels pain, I say GOOD!! Fuck him/her, they shouldnt be killing people in the first place, and should feel a similar pain as their victims!!!

Right. 

"I don't give a shit"

"Fuck them"

If I were your head doctor I'd send you to a mental institution.  But that's just me.  I usually had the impression that sociopaths should not be a part of our society.  Maybe I was wrong...........

Last edited by Spearhead (2006-12-14 17:59:42)

Spearhead wrote:

This thread scares me.... this shit is why I'm getting TFO of this country ASAP as soon as I have the money too

When was the last time you heard a anti-war hippy telling a general what to do?  Probably never.  And it shouldn't happen...

Likewise, people who are not involved with the system of the DEATH PENALTY cannot be expected to fully know what it's about.  Sure, it's a simple system that everyone understands... or is it?  Experts agree, and people who are actually involved in the system, that it is broken, and should ultimately be banned.

Here are some major opposing arguments :

1. If we don't execute murderers, murder rates will increase

WRONG.  It's been proven, time and time again, that the death penalty has no effect on preventing violent crimes and murders.  F*cked up people will do f*cked up things. 

Also, in addition to the above fact, it's been proven that a very good percentage of murders are spontaneous acts of violence, not premediated.  A fourth grader could comprehend that that means the murderer isn't thinking about "Oh, know, they're going to execute me 10 years from now!", they're actually thinking "Die, you motherf*cker, die...".

Making the argument that a guy DIDN'T kill his wife who cheated on him because he was scared of being executed is borderline aburdity.

2. It costs more to keep murderers alive for life sentences, than to just execute them.

WRONG.  Because of the way the system works, as people have said, it takes sometimes 20-25 years to get a prisoner executed.  Why?  Because quite frankly, there is a startling number of prisoners sentenced to death, who later end up being proven not guilty with new evidence.  Plus, paying for lawyers, judges, etc., sometimes actually makes the execution process more expensive than just throwing them away for the rest of their lives.

3. They deserve it.

Okay, so what?  Do you honestly believe that governments should be playing god with people in their own custody?  Jesus Christ, they will be locked away for the rest of their lives, and instead you want to give them the quick way out? 

Here's an idea : how about loving thy enemy?  How about treating HUMAN BEINGS in prison the same as treating HUMAN BEINGS in regular society.  Or is that too much to ask?  You say they should be put to death, because they killed, yet YOU aren't the doctor who has to inject them with poison while they're clamped to a table.  Would you want to do that for a profession?  Put other human beings to death, when they have no way of physically defending themselves? 

Conclusion : ANY person who advocates the death penalty, unless their genuinely insane, is a hypocrite.  The system is sick, and society as a whole should be moving away from it.  People who don't know, nor take the time to understand how the system works, advocate it, while people who know, and have worked for the system for years, know a lot of it is bullshit, and ultimately, what is it worth?  Is killing a killer going to help the problem?

Bottom line, this thread really does scare me.  This is one of those issues which is debated so little, you can see the effect the lack of debate and discussion is causing.  I think if more people who know how the system worked became activists, and more discussion occured between people, the facts would come out.  But this issue is just another one which probably won't change peoples minds, and it is a growing symbol of our isolation from facts, real issues, and discussion/debate with eachother about the issue itself.

WWJD?  Not murder murderers.  Again, I honestly doubt ANYONE here would want to inject poison into a prisoner who's clamped to a table.  Or, even watch it, for that matter. 

I'm sure they'd really advocate the death penalty after that [/sarcasm]

Also, I find it funny how the same people who say the government should stay out of peoples lives also advocate the government putting people to death.  What is more intrusive to a persons life than killing them?  Ignorance is bliss............

First of all, I am very happy you will be leaving the country... now, on to your points.

1.  I agree, in general.  It has been debated for years and years whether capital punishment deters criminals.  No one has ever had any real conclusive answers.  I can say, however, that I don't believe it encourage criminals.

2.  It is currently much more expensive to execute someone than keep them in prison forever.  However, most of this is because they get first consideration for appeals and such.  If you stopped capital punishment, the same amount of money would be spent on criminals, it would just be spread more evenly.  In fact, it would be, overall, more expensive.  The legal overhead would be the same, and the amount of prisoners kept in prison would increase.  In reality though, the difference would be negligible.

3.  Have you ever had someone close to you murdered?  Jews believe in an eye for an eye.  Who are you to deny them that?  I have no pity for criminals.  I know several people, including myself, who grew up poor and sad and lonely and still never ended up in jail.

As a Christian, I am personally against the capital punishment.  However, I have no pity for criminals, and don't feel I have the right to deny people what they see as justice.

BTW, you might want to be careful with the way you use the word "proven."  Very, very, very few things are actually "proven."

[pt] KEIOS wrote:

RicardoBlanco wrote:

making sure the guy you kill is actually guilty. 100% certainty is hard to prove.

and is it worth the death of innocent, to get some kind of revenge on murderers? isn´t it murder, too?

you can prevent serial killers, from doing it again, by not releasing them anymore.

death penalty is a relict from the last century. get civilized and ban it! lock them up in jail, but let them live, because (for all christians) only he, who gave live, shall take it...

well actually if you are saying something about what the bible says about it, it also says that if some one sheds mans blood than by man shall his blood be shed.

but if they killed some one them they deserve to die,

• Diaz was convicted of the 1979 murder of a Miami strip club manager₁
• NEW: Angel Diaz took 34 minutes and two drug cocktails to die₂
• NEW: Witnesses believe he was mouthing a prayer as he slowly died₃

₁Had plenty of time to think about his crime against humanity.
₂Better than slowly roasting on the chair, huh?
₃For himself or for his murder victim?

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-12-14 18:48:31)

Why kill a life so young?  Before you know what will become of it. If this life becomes evil, then you should kill it.

I believe capital punshiment is a good thing in our society, but I feel that the form of death shouldn't be up to state governments, but rather a nationally set method of execution.

My problem for abolishing the death penalty is this. A: You have the fact that some crimes are so henious that simply allowing the person who commited them just isn't prudent. To suggest that someone responsible for the gas chambers and furnaces of Nazi prison camps doesn't deserve death for killing thousands of people is taking bleeding hearts to a whole new level.

B: While some suggest that life sentences give time to reflect on one's actions and serves more of a purpose than death, many of the murdurs and other henious crimes are committed by sociopaths. For those of you that don't know, a sociopath is a person who cannot feel remorse or guilt for there actions. Killing a little girl means the same to them as killing a fly. Part of prison is to give the person time to reflect and reform, but there cannot be reflection and reform in the case of a sociopath.

C: When you stick a person in prison, he still has interactions with other people. The guards, visitors and other inmates are often subjected to the individual's presence. Now, with someone so dangerous that it has been determined that they have committed crimes punishable by death, one of 2 things may very well happen in a prison environment

C1: With the case of people like child molestors, prison is a death scentence anyway. Their is a heirarchy among prisoners and baby-rapers on the bottom of the food chain. To say that life in prison is more humane in these cases are actually false, because in this scenario, the prisoner is in for a long and painful death, while if given the death penalty, they face a relatively quick and humane death. (emphasis on relatively).

C2: With the case of serial killers, sociopaths, sadists and the like, you come across an even worse problem. Whats the only thing that stops a person sentenced to life in prison from just wantonly killing people? The death penalty. If you take that away, suddenly a prison is free to kill whoever he can get his hands on, including guards and inmates incarcerated for lesser crimes, such as theft.

jonsimon wrote:

Sick people, does anyone understand what it means to be cultured or moral anymore?

So long as abortion is morally acceptable, so should execution remain.

Spearhead wrote:

1. Conclusion : ANY person who advocates the death penalty, unless their genuinely insane, is a hypocrite.  The system is sick, and society as a whole should be moving away from it.  People who don't know, nor take the time to understand how the system works, advocate it, while people who know, and have worked for the system for years, know a lot of it is bullshit, and ultimately, what is it worth?  Is killing a killer going to help the problem?

2. WWJD?  Not murder murderers.  Again, I honestly doubt ANYONE here would want to inject poison into a prisoner who's clamped to a table.  Or, even watch it, for that matter. 

I'm sure they'd really advocate the death penalty after that [/sarcasm]

3. Also, I find it funny how the same people who say the government should stay out of peoples lives also advocate the government putting people to death.  What is more intrusive to a persons life than killing them?  Ignorance is bliss............ the death penalty is just another one of those shitty government attempts to treat a problem, but it doesn't work, hasn't worked, nor will ever work properly.  Instead of asking "What can we do to punish murderers?" people as a whole should be asking "What can we do to prevent PEOPLE, regular, AMERICAN citizens, just like you and me, from becoming MURDERERS in the first place?"

Ok, I was a little dense earlier to your questions re: faith/death penalty, but I knew this was coming.  I'm an advocate of the death penalty because someone has done the ultimate wrong - purposeful death, with malice, without just cause.  That's beyond reproach in my book.

I labeled the above for convenience.
1) Killing the killer provides some peace for the others who have suffered a loss.  The death penalty is levied for a set of criteria, which when met is dealt out.  Specifically, its the law.  Advocating against it is fine, but arguing the faith angle gets a bit muddled.  "If Jesus says we should forgive everyone, why do we need jails at all?"  Eventually a statement like that is going to show up, using the same logic.

Advocating the reentry of a convicted first degree murderer into society is not something I would like to see happen.  So instead it's death or a life sentence.  Is a life sentence more humane in my opinion?  No, its the same.  So cook them, because it's benefiting society any, and since it's a life sentence, you've just sentenced them to death...50 years from now.  And that's cruel.

2) I would if I knew the victim.  And then there would be therapy...but it would be a lot less therapy then the other way around, with no sense of closure.  I know the families of two victims.  The only one I'm going to talk about is:

My friend was driving drunk.  Scrapes another car.  The man gets out and yells at her.  She flees the scene.  He chases her down.  According to his lawyer, he tries to shoot her tires out.  They found his prints on her car door.  His lawyer said he got scared and fled the scene.  So she drowned when her lungs filled with blood.  Had the a-hole called the ambulance, she might have lived.  Instead, it took about 45 minutes.

Does he deserve the death penalty?  I don't think so.  But I do know that her parents wanted it.  Eye for and eye.

3) Doesn't apply to me.  I'm pro government.  I'm glad people are making hard choices for me.  I unfortunately has some trust and faith in the systems and processes within our country.


And lastly, you said "moving out of the country".  Just pick another state without the death penalty.  It's not legislated at the national level.  PS.  It's not Texas.

Has anyone read The Innocent Man by John Grisham?  That's one story (a true one) about the death penalty that really pisses me off.  Glad we don't have it in Australia.

Last edited by some_random_panda (2006-12-14 19:40:18)

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:

The_Shipbuilder wrote:

Do Christians believe that those crimes deserve the death penalty?

If not, why not?

Because we have advanced 2,000 years, even though religion is stupid, and this topic has already become to religious, I dont think anyone believes that those things deserve death.

Thanks, but again, I'm interested to hear from Christians. Yes, 2,000 years have passed, but does time dilute the direct instructions of God to Moses?

Is there a statute of limitations on God's word?

If not, why SHOULDN'T real Christians kill adulterers, gays, people who swear at their parents, or women who have sex before marriage?

The Old testament is just that.  The side that the Jews use, and Christians put in to learn.  However, do remember that Jesus (I'm trying hard not to sound religious, just pointing this out) wanted others to forgive.  That was in the New Testament, the side about Jesus and his teachings.  Thus I'd say that the death penalty, from a Christian's view, is not really appropriate.