In which case they could still choose not to fight: or, conversely, they could fight the government attempting to force them. Further, saying you ought be excused criticism for doing something voluntarily because you would have been forced to otherwise is a stupid argument.usmarine2007 wrote:
If people did not volunteer, then there would be a draft most likely.
Pug: But my point is that they choose, voluntarily, to enforce that policy.
"What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul"
that's from the adam sandler film..............Billy Madison, i think???????????
that's from the adam sandler film..............Billy Madison, i think???????????
No, what I am saying is, I would rather have people who want to serve their country than people who are forced to do it. Also, people need to realize that they can criticize all they want, but I want them to keep it in the back of their mind that without us, they would be over there also.Bubbalo wrote:
In which case they could still choose not to fight: or, conversely, they could fight the government attempting to force them. Further, saying you ought be excused criticism for doing something voluntarily because you would have been forced to otherwise is a stupid argument.usmarine2007 wrote:
If people did not volunteer, then there would be a draft most likely.
And what do you want? Nobody to join the military? World peace? Puppies and rainbows? Good luck with that.
And therefore should be condemmed if the policy is flawed. Yeah, I got that a while ago.Bubbalo wrote:
Pug: But my point is that they choose, voluntarily, to enforce that policy.
Mine: Too bad we can't walk away yet, it's still playing out. They're struggling to get home as soon as possible...
Okay, sure. But if they volunteer to do something, they must take responsibility for that action.usmarine2007 wrote:
No, what I am saying is, I would rather have people who want to serve their country than people who are forced to do it.
And yet when people do you call them traitors............................usmarine2007 wrote:
Also, people need to realize that they can criticize all they want,
No, they wouldn't. Without someone to enforce it's policies, the government would be powerless. Further, even if conscription is introduced, one can refuse to fight.usmarine2007 wrote:
but I want them to keep it in the back of their mind that without us, they would be over there also.
I want people to take responsibility for their actions. And, for all that you tell me that the army has made you the most brilliant person on the planet, you seem incapable of doing this.usmarine2007 wrote:
And what do you want? Nobody to join the military? World peace? Puppies and rainbows? Good luck with that.
What are you talking about? What actions?Bubbalo wrote:
Okay, sure. But if they volunteer to do something, they must take responsibility for that action.usmarine2007 wrote:
No, what I am saying is, I would rather have people who want to serve their country than people who are forced to do it.And yet when people do you call them traitors............................usmarine2007 wrote:
Also, people need to realize that they can criticize all they want,No, they wouldn't. Without someone to enforce it's policies, the government would be powerless. Further, even if conscription is introduced, one can refuse to fight.usmarine2007 wrote:
but I want them to keep it in the back of their mind that without us, they would be over there also.I want people to take responsibility for their actions. And, for all that you tell me that the army has made you the most brilliant person on the planet, you seem incapable of doing this.usmarine2007 wrote:
And what do you want? Nobody to join the military? World peace? Puppies and rainbows? Good luck with that.
Any and all actions.
But the only reason they are there in the first place is because they volunteered.Pug wrote:
And therefore should be condemmed if the policy is flawed. Yeah, I got that a while ago.
Mine: Too bad we can't walk away yet, it's still playing out. They're struggling to get home as soon as possible...
Dude, you are on something. I am responsible for MY OWN actions and not the actions of others. I have no idea where you get this idea from.Bubbalo wrote:
Any and all actions.But the only reason they are there in the first place is because they volunteered.Pug wrote:
And therefore should be condemmed if the policy is flawed. Yeah, I got that a while ago.
Mine: Too bad we can't walk away yet, it's still playing out. They're struggling to get home as soon as possible...
Apparently I wasn't clear enough:
Any and all actions taken by a person are the responsibility of that person.
Any and all actions taken by a person are the responsibility of that person.
Nice try, but I see what you are doing.Bubbalo wrote:
Apparently I wasn't clear enough:
Any and all actions taken by a person are the responsibility of that person.
So, it's a war. It's about forcing things on others. It's POV.Bubbalo wrote:
Apparently I wasn't clear enough:
Any and all actions taken by a person are the responsibility of that person.
Stating my view?usmarine2007 wrote:
Nice try, but I see what you are doing.Bubbalo wrote:
Apparently I wasn't clear enough:
Any and all actions taken by a person are the responsibility of that person.
And what is that view?Bubbalo wrote:
Stating my view?usmarine2007 wrote:
Nice try, but I see what you are doing.Bubbalo wrote:
Apparently I wasn't clear enough:
Any and all actions taken by a person are the responsibility of that person.
If I understand correctly....if a US or British soldier volunteers to join the military, then they become responsible for all actions taken by everyone of said country since they volunteered. Am I warm or cold?
Where did I say that? In fact, my statement that they are responsible only for their actions directly contradicts that.
I can't figure you out since you answer every question with a question, or just flat out talk down to people in some smart ass way.Bubbalo wrote:
Where did I say that? In fact, my statement that they are responsible only for their actions directly contradicts that.
I have stated my view multiple times, in this thread and others. If you are having reading comprehension problems, don't blame me.
I have read many of your posts from many different threads, I believe I am not the only one who has no idea what you are saying half the time.Bubbalo wrote:
I have stated my view multiple times, in this thread and others. If you are having reading comprehension problems, don't blame me.
Last edited by usmarine2007 (2006-12-09 00:31:00)
I'm quite sure you aren't either. But in this case, you have no-one to blame but yourself: I have repeatedly, and clearly, stated my belief.
Well, you have also said soldiers must be stupid if they join the military. Since they are so dumb, how do you expect them to take responsibility for their actions? According to you, they are too stupid to know better in the first place.Bubbalo wrote:
I'm quite sure you aren't either. But in this case, you have no-one to blame but yourself: I have repeatedly, and clearly, stated my belief.
No, you morphed your point Bubs. While refusing to be succinct.
Good night and good luck.
Good night and good luck.
Last edited by Pug (2006-12-09 00:39:07)
dude marine, he just wants you to admit that you are a bad person for serving your country.......thats his "point" that hes made several times that no one can seem to comprehend.
debating with this kid is like kicking a DIEING horse.
still makes enough noise to be annoying...................
debating with this kid is like kicking a DIEING horse.
still makes enough noise to be annoying...................
I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but now I just end up more confused with him. Oh well. I am done trying to figure it out.Parker wrote:
dude marine, he just wants you to admit that you are a bad person for serving your country.......thats his "point" that hes made several times that no one can seem to comprehend.
debating with this kid is like kicking a DIEING horse.
still makes enough noise to be annoying...................
I hope you realize that reality dictates the necessity of armies. National Defense is a perpetual concern for any country. Human nature should imply that much.Bubbalo wrote:
I'm quite sure you aren't either. But in this case, you have no-one to blame but yourself: I have repeatedly, and clearly, stated my belief.
well, I think get Bubbalo's POV. He is saying, that, in more general terms, an individual soldier in any army has to take full responsibility for the actions he takes, and cannot deny such responsibilty if people challenge his ethical or moral integrity.
Furthermore, he seems to say that those who voluntarily chose to join an organization like the Armed Forces also automatically sign up to that organization's beliefs, moral / ethical standards and goals.
And while I agree that this is probably true in general terms, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that some simply join the Armed Forces because they need a job, or because they want to help defend their country.
They most likely do not consider more sophisticated concepts such as moral or ethical behaviour ( theirs or that of the Armed Forces ) before enlisting.
It's a complicated issue, and not just black or white. For example, it is generally considered "wrong" or unethical to kill another person ( yes, I know, everyone has different sets of morals, but at least I do. )
Then again, as a soldier you are told to do just that under specific circumstances.
How do you resolve that ? Well, I think you try to find justification in greater causes, such as freedom, democracy, country, "the greater good", even god. Most people in the Armed Forces will probably tell you that they try to do the "right thing".
In the end, it's only a matter of perspective, people are different, and so are sets of values / morals.
Ultimately, though, I agree with Bubbalo with regard to one point:
if you join the Armed Forces voluntarily, you cannot deny responsibility for what that organizaton does. Since you are a part of it, you also carry part of the responsibility. Not for events that you did not take part in, of course, but in more general terms.
Which, in turn, might lead to you leaving that organization, because you consider its actions to be unethical, even if you never participated in such unethical behaviour yourself and have a clear "conscience".
would any of the former or current servicemen consider that to be possible ?
Furthermore, he seems to say that those who voluntarily chose to join an organization like the Armed Forces also automatically sign up to that organization's beliefs, moral / ethical standards and goals.
And while I agree that this is probably true in general terms, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that some simply join the Armed Forces because they need a job, or because they want to help defend their country.
They most likely do not consider more sophisticated concepts such as moral or ethical behaviour ( theirs or that of the Armed Forces ) before enlisting.
It's a complicated issue, and not just black or white. For example, it is generally considered "wrong" or unethical to kill another person ( yes, I know, everyone has different sets of morals, but at least I do. )
Then again, as a soldier you are told to do just that under specific circumstances.
How do you resolve that ? Well, I think you try to find justification in greater causes, such as freedom, democracy, country, "the greater good", even god. Most people in the Armed Forces will probably tell you that they try to do the "right thing".
In the end, it's only a matter of perspective, people are different, and so are sets of values / morals.
Ultimately, though, I agree with Bubbalo with regard to one point:
if you join the Armed Forces voluntarily, you cannot deny responsibility for what that organizaton does. Since you are a part of it, you also carry part of the responsibility. Not for events that you did not take part in, of course, but in more general terms.
Which, in turn, might lead to you leaving that organization, because you consider its actions to be unethical, even if you never participated in such unethical behaviour yourself and have a clear "conscience".
would any of the former or current servicemen consider that to be possible ?