If I told you to, it's mine.EVieira wrote:
So man commits acts in the name of God. Is this God's fault? Is this religion's fault? If I go out and behead somebody in the name os Sergeriver and all Argentians, who's fault is it?sergeriver wrote:
Religion is supposed to teach people to be better. But when you see the child molesters, when you read about beheading if you don't pray in Somalia, when you read about the Crusades, when you read about the Inquisition, when you read the news everyday about the Middle East, you realize that Religion makes people commit the worst crimes in the name of a God. Does God agree with this?
Granted, if I interpreted your sayings to suit my bloodlust? Let's say you wrote a book 2000 years ago in Hebrew, and now I think what you said means that I should blow myself up. Still your fault, or is it my twisted head who interpreted your words?sergeriver wrote:
If I told you to, it's mine.EVieira wrote:
So man commits acts in the name of God. Is this God's fault? Is this religion's fault? If I go out and behead somebody in the name os Sergeriver and all Argentians, who's fault is it?sergeriver wrote:
Religion is supposed to teach people to be better. But when you see the child molesters, when you read about beheading if you don't pray in Somalia, when you read about the Crusades, when you read about the Inquisition, when you read the news everyday about the Middle East, you realize that Religion makes people commit the worst crimes in the name of a God. Does God agree with this?
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
I'm accusing today's Religious leaders, not the people who wrote the best-seller.EVieira wrote:
Granted, if I interpreted your sayings to suit my bloodlust? Let's say you wrote a book 2000 years ago in Hebrew, and now I think what you said means that I should blow myself up. Still your fault, or is it my twisted head who interpreted your words?sergeriver wrote:
If I told you to, it's mine.EVieira wrote:
So man commits acts in the name of God. Is this God's fault? Is this religion's fault? If I go out and behead somebody in the name os Sergeriver and all Argentians, who's fault is it?
Actually the myth of most people believing the world was flat is quite unfounded. Most people did think the world was round and some mathematicians had come very close to extimating the exact circumference of the Earth.Stingray24 wrote:
Theory in science is based on the most recent discoveries. Science once thought the world was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, etc etc the list goes on. Since we see science constantly adjusting it's "facts" with new discoveries, it cannot be concrete.norge wrote:
i love the misinformed.Stingray24 wrote:
If we're truly the masters of our own destiny, why haven't we grasped the details of our universe by now? Because we have finite minds. We can't possibly fully understand the complete depth of our universe. All we have are scientific theories that are a feeble attempt to explain things in terms we can wrap our minds around.
I wanna point out that a "Theory" in science, is basically as concrete as it gets. In everyday usage a theory is something that might or might not be, but in science, a theory basically is proof.
The Greeks decided the Earth was round because they could always see the masts of ships coming over the horizon before the ship itself was visible.
A lot of science can be concrete. There can easily be small adjustments to theories, that does not always make them untrue. In some cases it can do though. The practical applications of many of these theories that are so immaterial can be seen all around us in modern appliances. Quantum theory has been pretty much consistently proven by the fact that integrated circuits work, for example.
Whilst technically all science is just theory that cannot be ultimately proven, there are degrees of proof. Few people would still claim that the Earth is the centre of the universe these days, because we can see that it isn't.
You just said religion makes people commit crimes in the name of God. The fact that some commit such acts in God's name does not mean He orders or sanctions them. You have a point about current religious leaders, though, especially in the case of radical Islam.sergeriver wrote:
I'm accusing today's Religious leaders, not the people who wrote the best-seller.EVieira wrote:
Granted, if I interpreted your sayings to suit my bloodlust? Let's say you wrote a book 2000 years ago in Hebrew, and now I think what you said means that I should blow myself up. Still your fault, or is it my twisted head who interpreted your words?sergeriver wrote:
If I told you to, it's mine.
Last edited by Stingray24 (2006-12-09 12:41:55)
lets take the bible for instance. when it was written, it depicted the life of men. basically, it was a history book. the catholic church then took out all instances of jesus acting like a man, and decided that he was the son of god. if you think that religion is concrete... were all gonna die. science does update itself, but u must realize that the people who thought the world was flat were not scientists, they were simply the people with money in that time, where owning land and having money meant u knew everything. today we discover things, and it doesn't matter who u are, u need to prove it.Stingray24 wrote:
Theory in science is based on the most recent discoveries. Science once thought the world was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, etc etc the list goes on. Since we see science constantly adjusting it's "facts" with new discoveries, it cannot be concrete.norge wrote:
i love the misinformed.Stingray24 wrote:
If we're truly the masters of our own destiny, why haven't we grasped the details of our universe by now? Because we have finite minds. We can't possibly fully understand the complete depth of our universe. All we have are scientific theories that are a feeble attempt to explain things in terms we can wrap our minds around.
I wanna point out that a "Theory" in science, is basically as concrete as it gets. In everyday usage a theory is something that might or might not be, but in science, a theory basically is proof.
oh by the way, theres like 11 dimensions. gravity is one of them, but its way too weak for what it should be, therefore theres a 'gravity leak' sort of thing happening which is leading us to believe that there truly are parallel universes.
IMO god is energy. it solves everything
The fall in religious belief doesn't correlate to an increase in the decay of society. Modern society is the least brutal and least corrupt society that has ever been, in spite of the decline of religion.jarhedch wrote:
Bull, I know many extremely strong people who would run rings around you intellectually as well as physically. They aren't weak, Most religious people I know are very strong and capable of extreme thought processes. the premise that religous people are weak is exteremely foolish and also a very poor argument. And the belief that religous parents are corrupt (i notice you don't allow room for the possibility that only some may be corrupt) is also beyond erroneous, Seeing that most of society's problem children who are involved in drugs and etc were brought up in homes that had "uncorrupt" parents as you seem to see it, who had no bearing or rasising in religion. They had no morals, and as such were not restrained.KILLSWITCH wrote:
Religion is something that corrupts the weak, i.e. Innocent children who have no choice but to believe in it because their allready corrupt parents tell them to do so.
Its a poison I tell you.
It's no coincidence that the fall in religious belief correlates to an increase in the decay of our inner cicites and society as we know it.
While religion was universal the world was a much more violent place, with far lower moral standards than we have today. The moral decline of society is something there is simply no evidence for.
In fact while I think that religion can have a positive, sometimes lifechanging, effect on some people and can help some people to embrace certain moral values, I believe it takes a (for lack of a more appropriate word) 'better' person to embrace a similar set of morals through their own sense of right and wrong rather than because religion tells them they should. Religion seems to take out some aspect of personal responsibility and replace it with loyalty to some supreme being and their devine 'code'. In Christianity, for example, the whole idea of sinning being in some way a betrayal of God, something to ask forgiveness for, rather than a failiure of personal responsibility.
I think there are two things being hit on here that need to be addressed....
First, interpretation is everything. Religion depends more on that than even the text being used.
Second, many non-religious people question how a benevolent god could allow so many atrocities to occur in his/her/its name.
These are definite seeds of doubt that prevent many people like myself from choosing a religion.
First, interpretation is everything. Religion depends more on that than even the text being used.
Second, many non-religious people question how a benevolent god could allow so many atrocities to occur in his/her/its name.
These are definite seeds of doubt that prevent many people like myself from choosing a religion.
You know, if I believed in Snow White or the Little Mermaid I would be thrown into an insane asylum.
However these people want me to believe that there is a guy in the sky who watches everything I do and throws lighting bolts and fire at people that piss him off?
Seem kinda psychotic to me, as do christians, catholics (Enter religion here).
Just fairy tales. As soon as I was old enough to have thoughts, I figured that one out.
However these people want me to believe that there is a guy in the sky who watches everything I do and throws lighting bolts and fire at people that piss him off?
Seem kinda psychotic to me, as do christians, catholics (Enter religion here).
Just fairy tales. As soon as I was old enough to have thoughts, I figured that one out.
Last edited by Stealth42o (2006-12-09 13:09:54)
theres 3 options as to why god allows the pain and suffering to occur in this world.Turquoise wrote:
I think there are two things being hit on here that need to be addressed....
First, interpretation is everything. Religion depends more on that than even the text being used.
Second, many non-religious people question how a benevolent god could allow so many atrocities to occur in his/her/its name.
These are definite seeds of doubt that prevent many people like myself from choosing a religion.
1) he couldnt prevent it (which means he is NOT all powerful)
2) he doesnt care (which means he is not a good god.)
3) he could not foresee this (not an all knowing being)
That is exactly the set of conclusions I have come to... I believe #2 is probably the most likely.norge wrote:
theres 3 options as to why god allows the pain and suffering to occur in this world.Turquoise wrote:
I think there are two things being hit on here that need to be addressed....
First, interpretation is everything. Religion depends more on that than even the text being used.
Second, many non-religious people question how a benevolent god could allow so many atrocities to occur in his/her/its name.
These are definite seeds of doubt that prevent many people like myself from choosing a religion.
1) he couldnt prevent it (which means he is NOT all powerful)
2) he doesnt care (which means he is not a good god.)
3) he could not foresee this (not an all knowing being)
A divine being would likely be far more abstract than any concept of good or evil... It would be a force of some sort....
True.Turquoise wrote:
I think there are two things being hit on here that need to be addressed....
First, interpretation is everything. Religion depends more on that than even the text being used.
Its called free will. There would be no point in life if god called all the shots. And so, many people choose to kill, to lie, steal, etc. People coulde choose peace and tolerance, but its up to them.Turquoise wrote:
Second, many non-religious people question how a benevolent god could allow so many atrocities to occur in his/her/its name.
These are definite seeds of doubt that prevent many people like myself from choosing a religion.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Yes, but most people assume that god is all-knowing, so he/she/it literally created some of us to become evil. We have free will, but we are supposedly designed by this being. Therefore, there is an element of responsibility.EVieira wrote:
True.Turquoise wrote:
I think there are two things being hit on here that need to be addressed....
First, interpretation is everything. Religion depends more on that than even the text being used.Its called free will. There would be no point in life if god called all the shots. And so, many people choose to kill, to lie, steal, etc. People coulde choose peace and tolerance, but its up to them.Turquoise wrote:
Second, many non-religious people question how a benevolent god could allow so many atrocities to occur in his/her/its name.
These are definite seeds of doubt that prevent many people like myself from choosing a religion.
Nonono, don't go blaming god! We are screwing up the world he created, and you wan to blame him! With free will we can choose to be evil, but its up to us. We can be driven to it, I agree, but only in consequence to the actions of other men, not because of a design flaw.Turquoise wrote:
Yes, but most people assume that god is all-knowing, so he/she/it literally created some of us to become evil. We have free will, but we are supposedly designed by this being. Therefore, there is an element of responsibility.
Thats the thing with free will, if we didn't have it things would be too easy. We could just say "God told me to do it", and so its not our fault. Thats why most terrorists are fanaticals, if they were in their right mind thay wouldn't blow people up. They do it because "god tells them to".
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
I'm an atheist and the reason is that i find god too human as a concept to believe it. It sounds as if a human has made it up. Religion comes from wanting to know why we are here and whats the point of it all and the old human flaw that humans think they have a purpose just because we seem to be better at surviving and thriving than any other animal.
I think that we are up are own arses if we think that frankly that we have " divine purpose" we evolved and became dominant and we are so insignificant in comparison to the rest of universe and their are plenty more wondrous things in the universe than us.
Even if their was a higher being that created us even then i wouldn't call it a god i would call it an alien if anything with more than our knowledge of science making it capable of creating earth and all its inhabitance and how crazy does that sound ? it just doesn't make sense to me.
However Religion does offer comfort to people in grave situations and gives you a good moral compass in most cases so therefore i cannot complain about religion in general society but religious war is bullshit and telling/preaching to people that don't want to be religious is bullshit also.
I think that we are up are own arses if we think that frankly that we have " divine purpose" we evolved and became dominant and we are so insignificant in comparison to the rest of universe and their are plenty more wondrous things in the universe than us.
Even if their was a higher being that created us even then i wouldn't call it a god i would call it an alien if anything with more than our knowledge of science making it capable of creating earth and all its inhabitance and how crazy does that sound ? it just doesn't make sense to me.
However Religion does offer comfort to people in grave situations and gives you a good moral compass in most cases so therefore i cannot complain about religion in general society but religious war is bullshit and telling/preaching to people that don't want to be religious is bullshit also.
Last edited by Recoil555 (2006-12-10 08:49:15)
Your kinda of wrong there. He made the world. The world is controlled by Satin, the rest of everything is controlled by God, he made it, he controlls it. He allows bad things to happen because people deserve it, picture thisnorge wrote:
theres 3 options as to why god allows the pain and suffering to occur in this world.Turquoise wrote:
I think there are two things being hit on here that need to be addressed....
First, interpretation is everything. Religion depends more on that than even the text being used.
Second, many non-religious people question how a benevolent god could allow so many atrocities to occur in his/her/its name.
These are definite seeds of doubt that prevent many people like myself from choosing a religion.
1) he couldnt prevent it (which means he is NOT all powerful)
2) he doesnt care (which means he is not a good god.)
3) he could not foresee this (not an all knowing being)
You own a BF2 server. People come in trash talking the admins, what do you do?
A) Punish them
B) Ignore them
"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"
C) kick / band4rkst4r wrote:
Your kinda of wrong there. He made the world. The world is controlled by Satin, the rest of everything is controlled by God, he made it, he controlls it. He allows bad things to happen because people deserve it, picture thisnorge wrote:
theres 3 options as to why god allows the pain and suffering to occur in this world.Turquoise wrote:
I think there are two things being hit on here that need to be addressed....
First, interpretation is everything. Religion depends more on that than even the text being used.
Second, many non-religious people question how a benevolent god could allow so many atrocities to occur in his/her/its name.
These are definite seeds of doubt that prevent many people like myself from choosing a religion.
1) he couldnt prevent it (which means he is NOT all powerful)
2) he doesnt care (which means he is not a good god.)
3) he could not foresee this (not an all knowing being)
You own a BF2 server. People come in trash talking the admins, what do you do?
A) Punish them
B) Ignore them
After reading this topic this morning, I was in the shower and started thinking. Several people have cited that they lost faith in religion after they found questions which it could not answer? Of what nature are these inquiries?
I think that falls under the punish categoryMogura wrote:
C) kick / band4rkst4r wrote:
Your kinda of wrong there. He made the world. The world is controlled by Satin, the rest of everything is controlled by God, he made it, he controlls it. He allows bad things to happen because people deserve it, picture thisnorge wrote:
theres 3 options as to why god allows the pain and suffering to occur in this world.
1) he couldnt prevent it (which means he is NOT all powerful)
2) he doesnt care (which means he is not a good god.)
3) he could not foresee this (not an all knowing being)
You own a BF2 server. People come in trash talking the admins, what do you do?
A) Punish them
B) Ignore them
"you know life is what we make it, and a chance is like a picture, it'd be nice if you just take it"
If God is indeed an omnipotent being, he would realize that so many would not follow his rules, before he created humans. He would know exactly what would happen with each of us. And that begs an interesting question (hypothetical for us atheists): Did God create us to only go to hell? He knew that atheists would not want to follow him and thusly go to hell. Therefore, was I created to go to hell, with the implicit knowledge of God, who, if omnipotent, would realize this? I am therefore doomed to go hell (hypothetically, of course).EVieira wrote:
Its called free will. There would be no point in life if god called all the shots. And so, many people choose to kill, to lie, steal, etc. People coulde choose peace and tolerance, but its up to them.
Why would God do such a thing? Of course, unless he has no control of us, and therefore, I find little reason to worship him. Of course, we can always question why a god would bother creating humans, especially since we are indeed flawed in the eyes of this God. Partly because we are sinners from birth, partly because so many refuse to believe in religion, or the great variations of religion. Why does he need to create humans? For what purpose? And for what reason must he worshipped? What free will is that, where he demands that we must attune our lives to a particular dogma, and if not, spend the rest of time in hell?
So god is a dude, now?d4rkst4r wrote:
Your kinda of wrong there. He made the world. The world is controlled by Satin, the rest of everything is controlled by God, he made it, he controlls it. He allows bad things to happen because people deserve it, picture thisnorge wrote:
theres 3 options as to why god allows the pain and suffering to occur in this world.Turquoise wrote:
I think there are two things being hit on here that need to be addressed....
First, interpretation is everything. Religion depends more on that than even the text being used.
Second, many non-religious people question how a benevolent god could allow so many atrocities to occur in his/her/its name.
These are definite seeds of doubt that prevent many people like myself from choosing a religion.
1) he couldnt prevent it (which means he is NOT all powerful)
2) he doesnt care (which means he is not a good god.)
3) he could not foresee this (not an all knowing being)
You own a BF2 server. People come in trash talking the admins, what do you do?
A) Punish them
B) Ignore them
Where is he?
In a holy control room?
Does he have a beard?
Is he white?
Is he human?
Who mates with him?
WTF are you talking about?
That's why I don't buy religion
Believing in a force beyond us is okay, imo, but believing that there's a dude who can know everything is just pure bullshit..... our conception of reality is based on the fact that we can communicate with ourselves and other people..... when you take that away, religion, societies, symbols, and all other forms of intelligence, practically everything you know is gone. There is no such thing as a dollar, or Nazi empire, or Iraq. A dollar is a form of tree, with symbols, the Nazi empire was nothing more than a bunch of humans, who agreed on abstract thoughts, holding a piece of land. Iraq is nothing more than some land, in itself. Nations physically dn't exist. We only think they exist in our minds, because that's what we're taught. What you have instead is an area of land, where people live by roughly the same general rules and thoughts as everyone else in the area.
Last edited by Spearhead (2006-12-09 18:19:12)
I am atheist because GOD made me this way.sergeriver wrote:
Today almost 1,2 billion persons are atheists or agnostics.
Why do you think people stopped believing?
Does science prove everything to such a point that people can't believe in God anymore?
Is Organized Religion making people lose faith in God?
Those who choose to believe, do they actually believe, or do they fear to be alone?
i dont believe or follow a religion.d4rkst4r wrote:
I think that falls under the punish categoryMogura wrote:
C) kick / band4rkst4r wrote:
Your kinda of wrong there. He made the world. The world is controlled by Satin, the rest of everything is controlled by God, he made it, he controlls it. He allows bad things to happen because people deserve it, picture this
You own a BF2 server. People come in trash talking the admins, what do you do?
A) Punish them
B) Ignore them
why im not hit by some lightning or just removet from earth ?
=> "He allows bad things to happen because people deserve it,.."
in what way little childrens, who were kidnaped, raped and mordered, deserve what happened to them ?
what could a 4 years old little kid, have done to deserve that ?
what little childerns in war zones have done do deserve to be bombed ?
I used to believe in God when I was little. I also used to believe in Santa. While I don't believe in either anymore, I don't actually know when I stopped believing in God. As for the bible, I think the morals that it contains are still valid. I have not read the bible, but I know the general gist of it.
I noticed you guys are talking about why god would do something. I had a rather interesting 'discussion' with one of my brothers friends. He he devoutly Catholic, and with me being athiest, it was set to be quite some showdown...
We were debating "God and Homosexuality". My brothers friend said that God made people the way they are. I 'lead the witness' and asked if God makes people gay. He replied that God did. God made people gay, so it was 'natural'. I then asked why the church is against gay marriage. He replied "Because it's unnatural"... Yeah, I know . The debate went on for a while, but that was his only defence.
Just some thoughts.
Mcminty.
I noticed you guys are talking about why god would do something. I had a rather interesting 'discussion' with one of my brothers friends. He he devoutly Catholic, and with me being athiest, it was set to be quite some showdown...
We were debating "God and Homosexuality". My brothers friend said that God made people the way they are. I 'lead the witness' and asked if God makes people gay. He replied that God did. God made people gay, so it was 'natural'. I then asked why the church is against gay marriage. He replied "Because it's unnatural"... Yeah, I know . The debate went on for a while, but that was his only defence.
Just some thoughts.
Mcminty.
Some religious people can think and be open minded, but most of them have been brainwashed. Then, you get that kind of answer.mcminty wrote:
I used to believe in God when I was little. I also used to believe in Santa. While I don't believe in either anymore, I don't actually know when I stopped believing in God. As for the bible, I think the morals that it contains are still valid. I have not read the bible, but I know the general gist of it.
I noticed you guys are talking about why god would do something. I had a rather interesting 'discussion' with one of my brothers friends. He he devoutly Catholic, and with me being athiest, it was set to be quite some showdown...
We were debating "God and Homosexuality". My brothers friend said that God made people the way they are. I 'lead the witness' and asked if God makes people gay. He replied that God did. God made people gay, so it was 'natural'. I then asked why the church is against gay marriage. He replied "Because it's unnatural"... Yeah, I know . The debate went on for a while, but that was his only defence.
Just some thoughts.
Mcminty.