BF2S Forums Liberalism vs. Conservatism

Labels are for people who restrict free thought.

Turquoise wrote:

Well, I don't like being pigeonholed anymore than anyone else, but labels are necessary to a point.  At least, they are necessary in defining the various positions for a given issue.

Understood, when it is used to define a characteristic of a view and not a person. The problem is so many people define an entire person based on their opinion on a single view. It's shameful and a form of prejudice. One day I got a PM here at bf2s inviting me to play in a Lib vs Con match. I was asked to play as a Neo-Con ...lol, Ok (sux cause the libs could have used me ). It is because of a predetermined view I was placed into a category. I have plenty of liberal "viewpoints". No worries, it's how you see yourself that matters.

Last edited by Kmarion (2006-12-06 21:53:32)

Turquoise wrote:

What I find interesting about these two ideas as defined by wikipedia is that both of them mention free enterprise and free markets.

Liberalism favours individual freedom: to this goal, it also favours equality between nations.  Therefore a modern Liberal would likely favour free markets as the most Liberal form of Capitalism.

A Conservative favours Capitalism: as such, they may or may not favour a free market, depending on their personal economic views.

Further: using wikipedia as your primary source on complex political questions?  Shame.

Liberalism vs. Conservatism is the most basic LINEAR model of the political spectrum, but in modeling political philosophy it is almost completely inadequate.

A better model, a 2-D "square" image to plot political viewpoints was devised, where social liberals/conservatives were put in the east-west line and economic liberals/conservatives were put on a north-south line.
The 2-D model with a test you can find here to see where you are plotted:
http://www.politopia.com/

A third, very accurate, but complex 3-D model was also devised, with the above compass directions but adding desire for enforcement of the above (authoritarianism vs. anarchy) in the up-down area.
The 3-D model info can be found here (no cute quiz though):
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/7/7/281/05051

I believe you can also see a breakdown in Wiki for both of the above as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_ … xis_models
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass
http://politicalcompass.org/images/inte … lchart.gif


Unfortunately, conservative people by their very nature have a black and white view of the world, so a 2-D or 3-D model is far too complex (they would say "unnecessary"), and even with the 3-D modeling would lump 1/2 of the cubic spectrum into "liberals" (the bad guys) and the other 1/2 into "conservatives", the good guys.  The reality is that people tend to vote how they feel on a given issue the way they are personally plotted on the 3-D cube, but when selecting representatives will vote for whomever fits their label.  Or, better put from the Wiki:

A one-axis model is highly over-simplified, and lumps together fairly different political propositions; in particular, as seen before, there are many ways to define the left-right spectrum, which do not yield the same classifications.

I'll give an example of myself as an illustration - I believe in religious freedom (+conservative) without government advocacy of Christianity (+liberal), I believe in a free market economy (+conservative) but with no corporate welfare (+liberal) OR social welfare for those that can work (+conservative).  I believe strongly in a worker's right to collectively bargain (+liberal), but I also believe in an individual's right to bargain (+conservative), I oppose tort reform so human lives don't become standard business expenses (+liberal), I believe in equality and equal opportunity (+liberal), but I don't think hate speech or hate crimes should be regulated separately (+conservative), I love the Bill of Rights (+liberal) including the 2nd Amendment (+conservative).  I oppose laws that regulate lifestyle choices, even dangerous ones like smoking (+conservative), seat belt laws (+conservative), abortion (+liberal), right to die (+liberal), smoking pot (+liberal), and owning a gun (+conservative).

So where do I fit?  In the linear model I would fall just barely left of middle!  Makes no sense to me, as I have some pretty strong feelings about how the world should be run and now I look like some wishy washy fence sitter...wrong answer.  Now, on the 2-D model I see that I'm far NORTH (or south, depending on chart)of center...a Libertarian!  Much better, but still not quite adequate.  Now we got the 3-D model (depending which one) and now I have a definite camp I can go hang out in.  I also find out that I don't hate all conservatives, I just hate fascists and fundamentalists and I get along just fine with Constitutionalists and industrialists.  By the same token I don't agree with some liberals, like anarchists, Communists, but get along just fine with Counter-culturalists and mild socialists (the "we already taxed you, so we'll put your money to a good use" crowd).

Last edited by GorillaTicTacs (2006-12-07 00:24:44)