Collateralis
Beep bep.
+85|6629|Stealth on Grand Bazaar
I have been reading a book by E. H. Carr entitled 'What is History?' for an upcoming interview at Oxford University. It was published back in the 1950's and whilst you may consider it to be outdated by contemporary texts of today you would be being extremely presumptuous.

In the book Carr outlines the idea that history itself is dictated by vast economic forces which the individual has no control over, following the Marxist idea. He also considers what makes good and bad history and how it is understood and interpreted by those studying it. He outlines the philosophical debate behind this idea and of course has plenty of 'giants' in the historical world which he quotes from. At the time of its publication his greatest critic was a man named Berlin who took the view that Carr's theory was not objective enough. Carr was basing his ideas around society of the time, rather than basing it on society of the period. He also claimed that Carr was stating that individuals had nothing to do with these economic forces which he felt was misleading and that Carr's claim that history would happen regardless of the individual. So for example he claimed industrialization would have occurred in Russia whether Stalin or Lenin had been in power. Of course this is theoretical.

In my opinion both economic forces and individuals play a part in shaping history. For example: Francis I certainly played a significant part in shaping France as a nation state in the 1500's whilst one could also attribute this change to economic forces which he had no control over. But these economic forces where to some extent random, good harvests were attributed to the stability in France during Francis' reign. The reason for this was not related to either economic forces or an individuals actions - it was nature, which one could say is random and completely detached from human influence - at least at that time in history - and as a result, one could tentatively suggest that History, whilst repeating itself in a general form, and whilst it is affected by the society, is random. There is no arrow pointing in one direction or another, events cannot be controlled only coerced into changing direction for a time before a new arrow is created.

What is the forums view on this? I'm pretty stuck myself. Its a difficult topic to broach even when writing it with the book in front of me let alone when being interviewed by Oxford Don's.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6645

nighthawk843 wrote:

I have been reading a book by E. H. Carr entitled 'What is History?' for an upcoming interview at Oxford University. It was published back in the 1950's and whilst you may consider it to be outdated by contemporary texts of today you would be being extremely presumptuous.

In the book Carr outlines the idea that history itself is dictated by vast economic forces which the individual has no control over, following the Marxist idea. He also considers what makes good and bad history and how it is understood and interpreted by those studying it. He outlines the philosophical debate behind this idea and of course has plenty of 'giants' in the historical world which he quotes from. At the time of its publication his greatest critic was a man named Berlin who took the view that Carr's theory was not objective enough. Carr was basing his ideas around society of the time, rather than basing it on society of the period. He also claimed that Carr was stating that individuals had nothing to do with these economic forces which he felt was misleading and that Carr's claim that history would happen regardless of the individual. So for example he claimed industrialization would have occurred in Russia whether Stalin or Lenin had been in power. Of course this is theoretical.

In my opinion both economic forces and individuals play a part in shaping history. For example: Francis I certainly played a significant part in shaping France as a nation state in the 1500's whilst one could also attribute this change to economic forces which he had no control over. But these economic forces where to some extent random, good harvests were attributed to the stability in France during Francis' reign. The reason for this was not related to either economic forces or an individuals actions - it was nature, which one could say is random and completely detached from human influence - at least at that time in history - and as a result, one could tentatively suggest that History, whilst repeating itself in a general form, and whilst it is affected by the society, is random. There is no arrow pointing in one direction or another, events cannot be controlled only coerced into changing direction for a time before a new arrow is created.

What is the forums view on this? I'm pretty stuck myself. Its a difficult topic to broach even when writing it with the book in front of me let alone when being interviewed by Oxford Don's.
While I have to admit that I kinda feel like a retard after glancing over that cause I didnt read the whole thing or understand stand much...sorry. I want to add in something, there was a quote by Reagan that went along the lines of "A Communist is one who reads Karl Marx, and anti-communist is one who understands it". Probably a worthless post and also probably off topic, but w/e.

Last edited by Commie Killer (2006-12-02 14:25:08)

Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6663|North Carolina
For the most part, I agree with the Marxist idea that economics influence culture and not usually the other way around.  I would actually say your idea is probably correct with regards to history overall.  Economics and a lot of things come together to influence history.
jonsimon
Member
+224|6753
Economics controls everything. However, everyone is a part of the economic system, so their role should not be overlooked.
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6645

jonsimon wrote:

Economics controls everything. However, everyone is a part of the economic system, so their role should not be overlooked.
Not true, economics and RELIGION control things. Wars are started because of 1 or more of 5 reasons: fear, religion, economic situation, retribution, saving the lives of innocents.
CommieChipmunk
Member
+488|6828|Portland, OR, USA

Commie Killer wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Economics controls everything. However, everyone is a part of the economic system, so their role should not be overlooked.
Not true, economics and RELIGION control things. Wars are started because of 1 or more of 5 reasons: fear, religion, economic situation, retribution, saving the lives of innocents.
and arrogance/imperialism...
Commie Killer
Member
+192|6645

CommieChipmunk wrote:

Commie Killer wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Economics controls everything. However, everyone is a part of the economic system, so their role should not be overlooked.
Not true, economics and RELIGION control things. Wars are started because of 1 or more of 5 reasons: fear, religion, economic situation, retribution, saving the lives of innocents.
and arrogance/imperialism...
Arrogance might be worth adding, but imperialism falls under the category's of Economic Situation and Fear.
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|6980|Eastern PA

Commie Killer wrote:

jonsimon wrote:

Economics controls everything. However, everyone is a part of the economic system, so their role should not be overlooked.
Not true, economics and RELIGION control things. Wars are started because of 1 or more of 5 reasons: fear, religion, economic situation, retribution, saving the lives of innocents.
Most states act out of self-interest (yes even the US). Religion usually provides some kind of palatable gruel to feed the great unwashed.
Masques
Black Panzer Party
+184|6980|Eastern PA
Anywhoo, since I'm a materialist it'd be Marxist History for me, not that individuals aren't important in their own right, but after all, if Germany had not experienced the deprivations of the inter war period, Hitler would have remained a shitty, disaffected artist.
Collateralis
Beep bep.
+85|6629|Stealth on Grand Bazaar

Masques wrote:

Anywhoo, since I'm a materialist it'd be Marxist History for me, not that individuals aren't important in their own right, but after all, if Germany had not experienced the deprivations of the inter war period, Hitler would have remained a shitty, disaffected artist.
Very true, but when Hitler came to power he himself decided on WW2. With your theory WW2 would have happened anyway - determinism - with or without Hitler. Economics plays a huge part but I would find it difficult to agree with one doctrine of thought over another. Everything is relative and you cannot overlook one theory if it has had influence over your preferred theory.

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