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2006-11-27 13:34:58
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California

Stingray24 wrote:

kilgoretrout wrote:

When has the UN ever not failed?
+1 Does anyone have any links to where UN troops actually engaged in combat and accomplished something useful?  Seems as though they either sit and do nothing while a real army goes in or they go in alone and stand around to get themselves shot.
I watched Hotel Rwanda and the UN took a beating but they (blue helmet army) were pretty much alone and stood up to the hutus (or whoever was killing the most).  They were getting their asses killed in Mogadishu prior to the US Marines coming to help the food get distributed..and they were alone during that.  I believe they are the only non Sudanese force who has attempted to help stop the slaughter in Darfur.

In short, it appears that they go where we don't go because they aren't there for the oil.
2006-11-27 13:45:22
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6703|The Land of Scott Walker

IRONCHEF wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

kilgoretrout wrote:

When has the UN ever not failed?
+1 Does anyone have any links to where UN troops actually engaged in combat and accomplished something useful?  Seems as though they either sit and do nothing while a real army goes in or they go in alone and stand around to get themselves shot.
I watched Hotel Rwanda and the UN took a beating but they (blue helmet army) were pretty much alone and stood up to the hutus (or whoever was killing the most).  They were getting their asses killed in Mogadishu prior to the US Marines coming to help the food get distributed..and they were alone during that.  I believe they are the only non Sudanese force who has attempted to help stop the slaughter in Darfur.

In short, it appears that they go where we don't go because they aren't there for the oil.
At least our armed forces don't suck at their job like the UN does.  If the politicians get outta the way we'll take all comers.  God Bless the US Marines!
2006-11-27 13:51:20
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California
Well, the UN forces are made up of shit forces like the soldiers from Chad, Pakistan, Egypt, Mongolia, and probably some other sordid countries just doing their part, respectfully.  In fact, in Modadishu, I think our marines went in after a bunch of Pakistani UN "peace keepers" were killed.  And with those US Marines was the objective to help the UN food reach the right people..despite what usmarine2007 thinks (when he says Clinton "failed" at Somalia).  They took a side trip and tried to kill/capture a warlord in a completely different move and we now can watch blackhawk down to see how that went.  If anything, Clinton didn't fail..he tried to fight back which sure sounds a lot different than the "cut and run pussy" element usmarine2007 would like to label clinton with.

As for the topic, I'm wondering if any real military people in this forum have actually had the opportunity to fight (not keep peace) with UN soldiers and could recount for us the difficulty that must be given the variety of levels of training among all the different soldiers.  It would give good insight for sure.
2006-11-27 15:02:14
EVieira
Member
+105|6736|Lutenblaag, Molvania

usmarine2007 wrote:

EVieira wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:


Ugh.  Look, Bush did not invade Iraq, we were in a cease fire.  We were still at war with them.  Second, Jimmy Carter perceived Iran a bigger threat than Iraq, so he "hooked them up" so to speak.  Jimmy also armed the Taliban in order to defeat Russia in the cold war.
I doesn't matter if technically it was Bush, or Bush senior, or whoever was the first who had the bright idea of taking down Saddam. The biggest fuck up still is Bush handling of things. Until someone fucks up even bigger in the middle-east, Bush will be the one on top.

usmarine2007 wrote:

And goddammit, it was the UN who said we could not go to Baghdad during the first Gulf war, so yes, the UN could have done things better.
Maybe not. The UN also said this time not to go to Baghdad, but this time Bush or whoever didn't listen. Look were we are now...
What are you talking about?  He invaded Kuwait...remember?  or were you even born yet?
He invaded Kuwait, and was rightfully kicked out of there by a coalition of forces, which included Russian and American forces. Now, after rightfully taking down the Taliban regime, what does Bush do? Declare that Iraq has WMDs and sends in the troops. And know he's up to his neck in a country that is unstable because of his invasion (or whatever you want to call it) and that if he leaves will probably collapse in a civil war.

Now, compare the huge f$ck up to the oil for food program... Nothing the UN could do would be worse to the middle-east, or help in this situation. And Iraqs invasion of Kuwait had NOTHING to do with this. This was about WMDs,s remember?


PS.: Your remark about my age actually makes you sound very imature...
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2006-11-27 15:12:15
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6840|SE London

usmarine2007 wrote:

IRONCHEF wrote:

usmarine2007 wrote:


What?  They did not invade Baghdad because they feared all the Arab countries in the coalition would leave.
lol, not even close.  that's an "additional" reason not to invade, but it was not what our leaders said..it was not a possibility.  Even though they had a massive force 5x what is in Iraq now, they didn't dare try to take on the full amount of iraq's forces.  I've seen the quotes all over the liberal world saying why they couldn't invade iraq.

As for an official reason..the war powers act Bush Sr. evoked was to LIBERATE KUWAIT.  NO language in that invocation that hinted at invading Iraq..because they knew before the invasion that they could not launch a war with Iraq.

Where did all that wisdom go?  Surely he'd listen to his dad, cheney, rumsfeld, baker, powell, and others who have half a brain...but no.
But we did invade Iraq.
Well, invade is a very loosely defined term, but the more specific military usage of it is to:
march aggressively into another's territory by military force for the purposes of conquest and occupation
With that definition the invasion of Iraq was very recent, certainly not in 1990.

The same administration (essentially) who recommended not occupying Iraq because it would be a disaster and be very expensive suddenly decide it would be a great idea to depose Saddam and occupy Iraq. Turns out they were right first time round. What had changed? Nothing, other than the president and the political climate, with the war on terror.
2006-11-27 15:14:40
<[onex]>Headstone
Member
+102|6960|New York

EVieira wrote:

Nothing the UN could have done would have stopped Bush from invading Iraq, after all his premisse was the WMDs that never existed. And since Bush's handling of things is the biggest fuck up of all, I don't see how you can even try to say the UN could have made things better.

On a side note, it is always good to remember that the US was the one who supplied Saddams chemical weapons in the first place, back in the Iran-Iraq war. Thats just about the biggest fuck up ever...
Ill have to dissagree Big time here. For starters the OP said AFTER the FIRST gulf war, Yes they did fuckup on a grand scale. Now as for your doubt that WMD's didnt or dont exist, Well the nut had 11 years to move, bury, sell, or whatever his little heart desired with those WMD's you and your believers say never existed. Oh Wait, you must think they existed, you say We supplied Him with them.

Now, as for your assumption that GW made the biggest Fuckup? I beg to differ yet again, I think, Bubba selling North Korea Cold water reactors with a promise for them to not make fuel was a fuckup on a grand scale. Now, North Korea is supplying rough countries with all kinds of goodies. Oh lets not forget Bubbas dealings with china.

So i will have to agree to totally dissagree with your assesment of the OP original post.
2006-11-27 15:30:25
IRONCHEF
Member
+385|6749|Northern California

<[onex]>Headstone wrote:

EVieira wrote:

Nothing the UN could have done would have stopped Bush from invading Iraq, after all his premisse was the WMDs that never existed. And since Bush's handling of things is the biggest fuck up of all, I don't see how you can even try to say the UN could have made things better.

On a side note, it is always good to remember that the US was the one who supplied Saddams chemical weapons in the first place, back in the Iran-Iraq war. Thats just about the biggest fuck up ever...
Ill have to dissagree Big time here. For starters the OP said AFTER the FIRST gulf war, Yes they did fuckup on a grand scale. Now as for your doubt that WMD's didnt or dont exist, Well the nut had 11 years to move, bury, sell, or whatever his little heart desired with those WMD's you and your believers say never existed. Oh Wait, you must think they existed, you say We supplied Him with them.

Now, as for your assumption that GW made the biggest Fuckup? I beg to differ yet again, I think, Bubba selling North Korea Cold water reactors with a promise for them to not make fuel was a fuckup on a grand scale. Now, North Korea is supplying rough countries with all kinds of goodies. Oh lets not forget Bubbas dealings with china.

So i will have to agree to totally dissagree with your assesment of the OP original post.
haha, wow....

So you support George Bush on everything he's done?  Did you see Powell and Rice saying Saddam had not constituted any weaponry of mass destruction and then suddenly find stock piles of them.."north, south, west, and east of Tikrit?"  I can look up archives from several liberal blogs showing THOSE SPECIFIC lies where real intelligence said Iraq had not constituted any new weapons programs or weapons since 1991..then after the Bushmeister felt like finding a reason to attack Iraq there was all kinds of evidence!  lol

sorry, couldn't wait..  see it here!

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-11-27 15:33:29)

2006-11-27 15:47:30
EVieira
Member
+105|6736|Lutenblaag, Molvania

<[onex]>Headstone wrote:

EVieira wrote:

Nothing the UN could have done would have stopped Bush from invading Iraq, after all his premise was the WMDs that never existed. And since Bush's handling of things is the biggest fuck up of all, I don't see how you can even try to say the UN could have made things better.

On a side note, it is always good to remember that the US was the one who supplied Saddam's chemical weapons in the first place, back in the Iran-Iraq war. Thats just about the biggest fuck up ever...
Ill have to disagree Big time here. For starters the OP said AFTER the FIRST gulf war, Yes they did fuckup on a grand scale. Now as for your doubt that WMD's didn't or dont exist, Well the nut had 11 years to move, bury, sell, or whatever his little heart desired with those WMD's you and your believers say never existed. Oh Wait, you must think they existed, you say We supplied Him with them.
The US wasn't the only one to supply Iraq, I'll grant you that. As far as I had time to research on our beloved wikipedia, US supplied just some "minor" stuff like anthrax samples and a couple of other goodies:

The non-profit American Type Culture Collection and the Centers for Disease Control sold or sent biological samples to Iraq under Saddam Hussein up until 1989, which Iraq claimed it needed for medical research. These materials included anthrax, West Nile virus and botulism, as well as Brucella melitensis

<[onex]>Headstone wrote:

Now, as for your assumption that GW made the biggest Fuckup? I beg to differ yet again, I think, Bubba selling North Korea Cold water reactors with a promise for them to not make fuel was a fuckup on a grand scale. Now, North Korea is supplying rough countries with all kinds of goodies. Oh lets not forget Bubbas dealings with china.

So i will have to agree to totally dissagree with your assesment of the OP original post.
We are talking about UN failing Iraq, this has nothing to do with North Korea. But since you brought it up, North Korea has milked the US (and other coutres too) of many millions of dollars worth of food and oil using his nuclear program. That Kim guy maybe be eccentric, but he sure knows how to get things his way...
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
2006-11-27 18:32:24
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6663|North Carolina

usmarine2007 wrote:

Seems to me that oil for food caused more problems and made Saddam even more powerful.

Here is just one example:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061127/ap_ … l_for_food

Had they got a better handle on corruption, maybe things would have been different.
Probably.  Then again, things would probably be very different if we hadn't invaded Iraq either.  Things would also be very different if we hadn't decommissioned the Iraqi Republican Guard.

Nevertheless, yeah, the Oil for Food scandal was a perfect example of how the U.N. can be just as shady as America can be.
2006-11-28 04:39:25
D34TH_D34L3R
Member
+48|7075|Belgium
My opinion;

Yes the UN failed.
The UN didn't exist that long after all.
And the UN faces a problem the US doesn't; It exists out of all different countries, with no real government that controls them all. All of those different countries have different voices (different points of view, different opinions, ...).
As long as Europe can not be really united, and doesn't speak as one voice, Europe will stay 'weak'.
Not to forget that the UN doesn't really have a lot of power.
UN soldiers, for example, are only allowed to engage the enemy after the enemy has engaged them.
So in a conflict, where 'rebels' are killing innocent natives. The UN actually has little power, if it isn't their mission to protect those natives, they even aren't allowed to stop the killings.

In America if the government says; let's invade Iraq and start kicking up sh*t there.
They just simply do it.
If Europe were to do that, they'd have to first discuss it for minimal 1 year.
And probably they eventually won't do it.
(Yes this is very simplified, but it's only meant as an illustration)

 

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