rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6978

CameronPoe wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

Westerner ideollogy = kill terrorist so children can grow too be adults.
Iraqi  ideology = kill fellow Iraqi's until US gets the point and leaves.
Hmmmm,, which one sounds flawed?
Are you completely unaware of what happened at Haditha or something? US soldiers KILLED children in an act of rage. Sheesh. Both sound flawed to me.

PS The Hamas incident happened in PALESTINE.
If it is so as you say those soldiers will be dealt with. Unlike the societies you endorse that would have made those soldiers out to be heroes if they would have killed western children.
Just like alll those Palestinian martyrs who go to heaven for killing Israeli children on school busses.

Last edited by rawls2 (2006-12-11 14:13:18)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6973

rawls2 wrote:

If it is so as you say those soldiers will be dealt with. Unlike the societies you endorse that would have made those soldiers out to be heroes if they would have killed western children.
Just like alll those Palestinian martyrs who go to heaven for killing Israeli children on school busses.
Not only do you make light and originally overlook heinous acts you also choose to make baseless allegations about what I regard as 'endorsable' societies. Back in your cage and learn some manners.

CameronPoe wrote:

What the Hamas gunman did was a heinous horrible act of deplorable inhumanity.
A ringing endorsement if ever I saw one. Fuckin hell. Some people show incredibly low levels of intelligence and capacity for rational thought in general.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-12-11 14:51:40)

rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6978

CameronPoe wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

If it is so as you say those soldiers will be dealt with. Unlike the societies you endorse that would have made those soldiers out to be heroes if they would have killed western children.
Just like alll those Palestinian martyrs who go to heaven for killing Israeli children on school busses.
Not only do you make light and originally overlook heinous acts you also choose to make baseless allegations about what I regard as 'endorsable' societies. Back in your cage and learn some manners.

CameronPoe wrote:

What the Hamas gunman did was a heinous horrible act of deplorable inhumanity.
A ringing endorsement if ever I saw one. Fuckin hell. Some people show incredibly low levels of intelligence and capacity for rational thought in general.
First of all by supporting the palestinian cause you endorse every terrorist action commited by them. Second of all I don't make light of the Haditha incident. I clearly pointed out that those soldiers involved will be punished heavily, unlike Palestinian murderers who rise to ranks of martyrdom for killing innocents.
Instead of me crawling in a cage why don't you get of your high horse and realize your world travels don't make you a global judge on foriegn issues.

Last edited by rawls2 (2006-12-11 14:59:16)

genius_man16
Platinum Star whore
+365|7096|Middle of nowhere
I believe the only way this thing will ever be solved is if the entire area is fire bombed, just burn the conflictors away
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6973

rawls2 wrote:

First of all by supporting the palestinian cause you endorse every terrorist action commited by them.
LOL. COMPLETELY wrong. If you support the US cause in Iraq does that mean you endorse every civilian death they cause? Your powers of logic and reasoning are unbelievable.

rawls2 wrote:

Second of all I don't make light of the Haditha incident. I clearly pointed out that those soldiers involved will be punished heavily.
It took you about three post to muster up the necessary fortitude of mind to pass critical judgement on the action. Your first response was to criticise Iraqis. Very nice indeed.

rawls2 wrote:

Instead of me crawling in a cage why don't you get of your high horse and realize your world travels don't make you a global judge on foriegn issues.
Why not try engaging in some world travel yourself? It might do you some good to get out of your cage.
rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6978

CameronPoe wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

First of all by supporting the palestinian cause you endorse every terrorist action commited by them.
LOL. COMPLETELY wrong. If you support the US cause in Iraq does that mean you endorse every civilian death they cause? Your powers of logic and reasoning are unbelievable.

rawls2 wrote:

Second of all I don't make light of the Haditha incident. I clearly pointed out that those soldiers involved will be punished heavily.
It took you about three post to muster up the necessary fortitude of mind to pass critical judgement on the action. Your first response was to criticise Iraqis. Very nice indeed.

rawls2 wrote:

Instead of me crawling in a cage why don't you get of your high horse and realize your world travels don't make you a global judge on foriegn issues.
Why not try engaging in some world travel yourself? It might do you some good to get out of your cage.
Admit you don't mind seeing Israeli blood spilled. We all know you don't. And yes I will blame Iraqi's for Iraqi deaths seeing how they cause most of them. I know as well as others your just riding the anti-US bandwagon because it's so popular outside the US. Too bad you can't think for yourself.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6973

rawls2 wrote:

Admit you don't mind seeing Israeli blood spilled. We all know you don't. And yes I will blame Iraqi's for Iraqi deaths seeing how they cause most of them. I know as well as others your just riding the anti-US bandwagon because it's so popular outside the US. Too bad you can't think for yourself.
Jesus here comes the fucking witch hunt.

A) I can and do think for myself as many people on both sides of the political divide on this forum will testify to. I am well read, well travelled, opinionated and extremely wary and cynical of ALL forms of mass media. Popular schmopular. The Democrats are back in power now, which is far far better than the Republicans (christian fundamentalist neo-conservative oil tycoons don't do anything for me). So maybe global public opinion might return in favour of US foreign policy in the near future.

B) I've been to Israel. I've met Israelis. I've chatted cordially with them. I've climbed Masada and been blessed by a rabbi at the wailing wall. Man, I must really hate Israelis. Unlike you I don't pass judgements on entire peoples because of the policies of their government, because of their ethnicity, their nationality or the acts of a few of their number. You need to unplug the FOX cable attached to the back of your head. I have the power to differentiate. You appear to suffer from Bush-vision: things can only be black or white, good or evil, yes or no, with us or against us.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-12-11 16:13:55)

rawls2
Mr. Bigglesworth
+89|6978

CameronPoe wrote:

rawls2 wrote:

Admit you don't mind seeing Israeli blood spilled. We all know you don't. And yes I will blame Iraqi's for Iraqi deaths seeing how they cause most of them. I know as well as others your just riding the anti-US bandwagon because it's so popular outside the US. Too bad you can't think for yourself.
Jesus here comes the fucking witch hunt.

A) I can and do think for myself as many people on both sides of the political divide on this forum will testify to. I am well read, well travelled, opinionated and extremely wary and cynical of ALL forms of mass media. Popular schmopular. The Democrats are back in power now, which is far far better than the Republicans (christian fundamentalist neo-conservative oil tycoons don't do anything for me). So maybe global public opinion might return in favour of US foreign policy in the near future.

B) I've been to Israel. I've met Israelis. I've chatted cordially with them. I've climbed Masada and been blessed by a rabbi at the wailing wall. Man, I must really hate Israelis. Unlike you I don't pass judgements on entire peoples because of the policies of their government, because of their ethnicity, their nationality or the acts of a few of their number. You need to unplug the FOX cable attached to the back of your head. I have the power to differentiate. You appear to suffer from Bush-vision: things can only be black or white, good or evil, yes or no, with us or against us.
lol - I didn't ask for a bio.
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6937|Πάϊ
btw, just watching the news and

Reuters wrote:

It remains unclear who was behind the shooting attack that killed three young boys in Gaza
so lets not jump to conclusions...
ƒ³
SpaceApollyon
Scratch where it itches
+41|6937|Finland

rawls2 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

...
Admit you don't mind seeing Israeli blood spilled. We all know you don't.
That would have to be one of the most arrogant posts I've seen on this forum.
Such a comment brings nothing to the debate and gives yourself an ignorant look!
Ad hominem ftw!
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|7019|132 and Bush

Robbed of their innocence, no matter who you side with it's a fact.
It's very sad.



It is more to demonstrate the influence of war on children.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
JahManRed
wank
+646|7046|IRELAND

Kmarion wrote:

Robbed of their innocence, no matter who you side with it's a fact.
It's very sad.



It is more to demonstrate the influence of war on children.
Yes its very sad indeed. You have to ask yourself what makes a child and his family want to give their lives so readily?
Desperation. Nothing else.
WarriorDave
Member
+10|6788|Louisville, Ky

genius_man16 wrote:

I believe the only way this thing will ever be solved is if the entire area is fire bombed, just burn the conflictors away
After a couple thousand years of war, it may be the only way.

Watch the video, even the kids are ready to die. Why send your child to his death? Do they not have maternal instincts of protecting their children?

I know this is an Israel/Palestinian discussion, but for the sake of similarity:
My buddy made 2 tours of Iraq, shot many men. One day a child was wielding a pistol, started shooting at him, his boss (for lack of his commander's rank and/or title) ordered him to shoot the kid. The kid's dad had been killed a couple houses up the street, firing at Marines who were entering a house. Would you fire at Marines? Would you run at Marines with a pistol?

JahManRed wrote:

Desperation. Nothing else.
Would you shoot a kid that was going to shoot you? I nearly puked hearing that my buddy, whom I've known since before grade school, had to shoot a kid half our age (hell, we're in our 20s ourselves).

"It's a whole different world over there man." Only thing he said about Iraq since telling me of the story.
JahManRed
wank
+646|7046|IRELAND

Would you agree that the the kid your Buddy shot was desperate? Ie his father and bread winner was just killed, maybe his only parent. He's a kid he doesn't know or care what his father done, all he knows is he is dead and the anger and desperation takes over...............
In Palestine if a kids father is out for a run one day and gets a bomb dropped on him from an Israeli jet, his only crime is being in the wrong place at the wrong time....do you not agree that he might wish revenge? The children of Palestine have seen more death, destruction and blatant disregard for human life by the time they are 10 than we will see in our entire lifetime............ unless you have been in their situation, which I doubt anyone has been on these boards have been, then we can't criticism or judge them........

Last edited by JahManRed (2006-12-15 04:35:13)

TeamZephyr
Maintaining My Rage Since 1975
+124|6947|Hillside, Melbourne, Australia
Picked up this essay/article from a Palestinian man living in the West Bank....

Why is Israel separating me from my wife?

Ghassan Abdullah
writing from Ramallah, occupied Palestine

Israel has decreed that my wife and I can no longer live together. I am Palestinian and she is Swiss and we have been married for 28 years. She was recently given two weeks to leave the occupied Palestinian territory. The Israeli Ministry of Interior wrote on her Swiss passport: "LAST PERMIT". We have been living together in Ramallah for 12 years. We came in 1994, when, after the Oslo Agreement, we were encouraged to move to the West Bank by the prospect of "peace" and development.

My wife Anita speaks Arabic, likes the landscape, cooks Arabic meals, and she cares for my grandfather’s village house — an old stone building and the plants around it — more than I do. She votes in Palestinian elections as the spouse of a Palestinian. She is active in serving the local society in public health. She has numerous friends here and considers it home.

She still has her valuable European element and contacts, but she doesn’t want to be separated from this environment or from me, and I certainly do not want to be separated from her. Our children are grown up and work abroad, but they are also not sure they will be allowed to visit us here. On her way to visit us in Ramallah a few months ago, our daughter, who has a Swiss passport, was delayed for six hours at Tel Aviv airport and grilled when she landed. She was lucky. Others are deported to where they took off from, often spending a night or more at the notorious detention facility at the airport.

For the past 12 years, Anita has managed to stay here by diligently renewing her permit or leaving and coming back every three or six months to comply with the Israeli law that applies in the occupied Palestinian territories. She is fighting now to stay here by going to a lawyer and to the Israeli courts, hoping for an injunction to be able to stay until a verdict is reached. She is also in touch with her embassy, and she has joined others in the same predicament in addressing the European Union and the American consulate, and in talking to human rights organisations, both Israeli and Palestinian, and the media.

We don’t know what to do. But whatever it is, we have to do it quickly. What do we do about our shared life, our papers and accounts, the hundreds of little things that we have grown to share? What do we do about the new apartment that we made the mistake of purchasing at the wrong time? She was keyed up about what tiles to choose and how to model the kitchen. We can’t believe, or accept, that we are going to be separated. We believe it though, when we are reminded by other "mixed" couples or families around us who have, and are being, separated.

Those affected include Pales­tinians with foreign passports or foreign wives, husbands, children, parents and other relatives. They also include foreign nationals, who come to teach at universities, work or volunteer with local or foreign non-governmental organisations, experts with various projects often funded by European countries, sympathisers or human rights activists.

Bitakhon is the magic word in Israel. In the name of bitakhon, or "security", Israeli authorities can take any illegal, inhuman, immoral or aggressive measures against the Palestinian population under military occupation. They can throw the word bitakhon at any European or foreign diplomat who questions any of their measures, even when those measures go against human rights, international and humanitarian law, or the Fourth Geneva Conventions which govern the conduct of occupying powers towards the occupied population.

It seems sometimes, to Palestinians, that a third rate official at any Israeli ministry can frighten the whole of the European Union and its officials by invoking the "security" of Israelis, or by hinting at what Europe did to the Jews.

My wife is not the only one to have been given an ultimatum this last week. Dozens of other wives, husbands and children who have been living in the West Bank for years, renewing their Israeli-issued visitors permits every three months, have been given short extensions, none of which exceed the end of this year. Children will have to be taken out of schools and will be separated from their parents. Mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and grandparents of the cherished local extended families will be torn apart.

Hundreds of others are also waiting their fate in the coming days and weeks. Thousands have been denied visits this last summer to their families and homes and roots. Summer is often the season for marriage of Palestinians divided by different passports or IDs and festivities used to fill the summer nights with music and dance. Not in the summer of 2006.

The Israeli occupation does not stop at confiscating the land. I feel occupied in my shirt pocket. My Palestinian identity card is issued by Israeli authorities. They control the Palestinian civil population registry. Every birth, death, marriage, travels in or out, is controlled by Israel — even in Gaza, disengagement withstanding. Of course, they control the water, the roads and the movement of people within the West Bank through hundreds of barriers and checkpoints. They uproot all the trees that they decide are in their way, that are in the way of the Apartheid Wall cutting its way into the flesh of our land, or in the way of their colonial settlers who decide to take over yet another spot of land or hill top that pleases them.

Why are the Israelis attacking mixed marriages of Palestinians? Before people fall in love in Palestine now, they ask about what ID each holds and from where it is issued. They do not want to build a life at risk of being torn apart from the start.

Ghassan Abdullah is a computer adviser in the West Bank city of Ramallah
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7175|Argentina
Carter's 'Palestine Peace Not Apartheid'

Read this article about the book former President Jimmy Carter wrote about this conflict.

It's very interesting what he wrote.

There are two interrelated obstacles to permanent peace in the Middle East:

1. Some Israelis believe they have the right to confiscate and colonize Palestinian land and try to justify the sustained subjugation and persecution of increasingly hopeless and aggravated Palestinians; and

2. Some Palestinians react by honoring suicide bombers as martyrs to be rewarded in heaven and consider the killing of Israelis as victories.

In turn, Israel responds with retribution and oppression, and militant Palestinians refuse to recognize the legitimacy of Israel and vow to destroy the nation. The cycle of distrust and violence is sustained, and efforts for peace are frustrated.
JahManRed
wank
+646|7046|IRELAND

sergeriver wrote:

1. Some Israelis believe they have the right to confiscate and colonize Palestinian land and try to justify the sustained subjugation and persecution of increasingly hopeless and aggravated Palestinians.
Its the same shit thats been going on in Northern Ireland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster
For the last 30 years on a smaller place. I know IG-Calibre, myself and David4343(whatever) are all from N.I and we are from different sides of the Religious divide, so we should be at war with each other, traditionally, but we sing from the same hymn sheet, because primarily we are rational human beings. It doesn't matter what side you are from, after time you eventually empathize with the other, if you are a reasonable person. I have friends who are so Polarized too my views, Unionist 100%, but fuck he is entitled to his views, so am I. We talk about it, make fun of it, break it down. One thing we are good at is talking.
Sooner or later the ppl in Palestine and Israel would empathize with each other, only for the constant interference from outside. The fact Israel is such a big topic here, is a microcosm, of the world outside.. In N.I we have sorted ourselves out by being prity much left alone. (To their credit the UK government and Tony Blair have helped move shit along here.)
I believe in a two state solution, as does the Israeli prime minister(bbc interview today,) and the Palestinians. They just need to be left the hell alone, no more military aid from the USA to Israel, no more interference and arms from Iran, just talks. I would say Iran would officially pull its nose out of Iraqi and Palistine if American pulled its nose out of Israel.
I do concede that America totally pulling its nose out of Israel would eventually end in genocide if not managed correctly....it is a pickle.

sergeriver wrote:

In turn, Israel responds with retribution and oppression, and militant Palestinians refuse to recognize the legitimacy of Israel and vow to destroy the nation. The cycle of distrust and violence is sustained, and efforts for peace are frustrated.
Tit-for-tat murders in N Ireland http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/48753.stm
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6960|Texas - Bigger than France
I saw this today...read the section on "reasons for impasse"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit

Why didn't Palestine accept the offer?  Or more specifically, why didn't they make a counteroffer?

Quick summary
Most of the land would be returned to the Palestinians.
Sounds like to me that they didn't get 100% of the land in the deal, only 90%.  In addition, the new territories would disrupt the current road system. Why can't they just build new roads?

Palestinians wanted complete control over some religious sites, instead of sharing certian areas with the Israelis.  Why not share?

Palestinians want to have their refugees return and reparations be paid.  Israel counters with their own refugees with the same deal.  In this case, I would think that both should have been honored.

Why walk away from the table?
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7175|Argentina

Pug wrote:

I saw this today...read the section on "reasons for impasse"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_2000_Summit

Why didn't Palestine accept the offer?  Or more specifically, why didn't they make a counteroffer?

Quick summary
Most of the land would be returned to the Palestinians.
Sounds like to me that they didn't get 100% of the land in the deal, only 90%.  In addition, the new territories would disrupt the current road system. Why can't they just build new roads?

Palestinians wanted complete control over some religious sites, instead of sharing certian areas with the Israelis.  Why not share?

Palestinians want to have their refugees return and reparations be paid.  Israel counters with their own refugees with the same deal.  In this case, I would think that both should have been honored.

Why walk away from the table?
You forgot in your summary to say that Israel offered 73% of West Bank Green Line Borders, which would have been increased to 90% in 25 years (exlucidng greater Jerusalem).  Israel also offered "custodianship" not sovereignty over Eastern Jerusalem.  Despite this, Palestinians should have stayed and make a counteroffer.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6960|Texas - Bigger than France
No, it's in the summary.  Most of the land, 90%.  Shared control over religious sites...

I didn't want to make it biased...merely ask why didn't they counteroffer?

Last edited by Pug (2006-12-16 10:26:29)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6973

Pug wrote:

No, it's in the summary.  Most of the land, 90%.  Shared control over religious sites...

I didn't want to make it biased...merely ask why didn't the counteroffer?
Because "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity".
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6947|Global Command

CameronPoe wrote:

Pug wrote:

No, it's in the summary.  Most of the land, 90%.  Shared control over religious sites...

I didn't want to make it biased...merely ask why didn't the counteroffer?
Because "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity".
There is the fair and balanced Cameronpoe.

And we also see how pigeon holing a thread into a sticky can kill a topic, or topics.

Last edited by ATG (2006-12-20 21:36:40)

EVieira
Member
+105|6896|Lutenblaag, Molvania

ATG wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Because "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity".
There is the fair and balanced Cameronpoe.

And we also see how pigeon holing a thread into a sticky can kill a topic, or topics.
Agreed, this single topic on the most controversial subject on this forum has killed the Palestine-Israel discussions. There are more than 30 pages of posts, its time to unsticky this and let newer topics be created.
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered;  the point is to discover them."
Galileo Galilei  (1564-1642)
sergeriver
Cowboy from Hell
+1,928|7175|Argentina

EVieira wrote:

ATG wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Because "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity".
There is the fair and balanced Cameronpoe.

And we also see how pigeon holing a thread into a sticky can kill a topic, or topics.
Agreed, this single topic on the most controversial subject on this forum has killed the Palestine-Israel discussions. There are more than 30 pages of posts, its time to unsticky this and let newer topics be created.
Agreed.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6947|Global Command
Sl4y3r, thank you for unstickying this thread.
See folks; the mods are alright.

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