Well, if you hadn't gone in in the first place you wouldn't be facing this dilemma, would you?ATG wrote:
The enemy wants us to cut and run, to face humiliation. Why do the democrats? What long term gain will be had be us appearing weak and irresolute?
For once, Obama did not disclose anything. He "called for" troop withdrawal, he presented his ideas how the Iraq war should come to an end. What's wrong with that ? People everywhere in the US are discussing that, so why can't he ?
And considering he probably wants to run for POTUS in 2008, it shouldn't come as a surprise that he'd say s.th. like that. Especially since the current administration obviously does not have an exit strategy for Iraq. Right now, those are just words. As Gunslinger has said, Obama knows very well that US troops are not leaving Iraq any time soon, and surely not within the next 4-6 months.
With that said, I don't think the current War on Terror in Iraq can be won militarily. The military part of the whole campaign was won years ago, when the last regular Iraqi forces threw down their weapons.
What is going on in Iraq now is a guerilla war, or a civil war if you will. And history has shown that those cannot be won with regular armed forces.
Those are terrorists, embedded in the general population, and the Marines - as well trained as they may be - are not well suited for doing police work.
Personally, I don't think anybody is winning in Iraq right now. If you are among the civilian population, every day could be your last, with dozens if civilians killed in insurgent attacks each day.
And as long as the insurgents have the support of at least parts of the population, there is little hope US and iraqi forces will be able to stop them any time soon.
And Gunslinger, I think you are lying to yourself. Vietnam was a defeat for the US. Maybe not technically, since the US forces pulled out before the south was overrun by the north in 1975 and there was always an "independent" government in south vietnam ( making it a defeat for south vietnamese forces, not for US forces ), but when you look at it from a more practical point of view, it was a defeat.
Near the end of the war in vietnam, the US was looking for a way to get out of the affair, an exit strategy, if you will. Why ? Because the war could not be won.
Nothing else is happening in Iraq right now.
And considering he probably wants to run for POTUS in 2008, it shouldn't come as a surprise that he'd say s.th. like that. Especially since the current administration obviously does not have an exit strategy for Iraq. Right now, those are just words. As Gunslinger has said, Obama knows very well that US troops are not leaving Iraq any time soon, and surely not within the next 4-6 months.
With that said, I don't think the current War on Terror in Iraq can be won militarily. The military part of the whole campaign was won years ago, when the last regular Iraqi forces threw down their weapons.
What is going on in Iraq now is a guerilla war, or a civil war if you will. And history has shown that those cannot be won with regular armed forces.
Those are terrorists, embedded in the general population, and the Marines - as well trained as they may be - are not well suited for doing police work.
Personally, I don't think anybody is winning in Iraq right now. If you are among the civilian population, every day could be your last, with dozens if civilians killed in insurgent attacks each day.
And as long as the insurgents have the support of at least parts of the population, there is little hope US and iraqi forces will be able to stop them any time soon.
And Gunslinger, I think you are lying to yourself. Vietnam was a defeat for the US. Maybe not technically, since the US forces pulled out before the south was overrun by the north in 1975 and there was always an "independent" government in south vietnam ( making it a defeat for south vietnamese forces, not for US forces ), but when you look at it from a more practical point of view, it was a defeat.
Near the end of the war in vietnam, the US was looking for a way to get out of the affair, an exit strategy, if you will. Why ? Because the war could not be won.
Nothing else is happening in Iraq right now.
yeah, but i think alex is just trying to point out the rock star's complete political ineptitude, everyone's got a boner over him for giving a good speech once, one which he probably didn't even write. they think he's just the bee's knee's yet the only thing he's actually accomplished in congress is to pass one bill that created a website. he has no policy (other than making military strategy public apparently), no record, no nothing. he's just "the black guy" for the DNC, an empty suit to fill a racial quota and provide some response to republicans like Rice, Powell, Thomas, Gonzales, who you never see being paraded around by their minority status.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
silly rabbits. nobody is leaving Iraq anytime soon, you could take that the bank. I am still surprised over how people really actually expect us to leave that place within the next few years. we are in there for the long haul. but hey, dont take my word for it.
command of the troops is an executive job, that's why the CinC is in the executive branch, you can't have 500+ assholes whining about which way they all want things to be done. everytime they get involved they only serve to fuck things up, and then you really do end up with "another vietnam" as that's what happened back then.
You all fail to see the difference betwween a Bush type character and an Obama type character. Its called intelligence. Who cares if he didnt write the speech. He sure sounded like he understood what he was saying. Unlike Bush who sounds like a kindergarden student reading a highschool research paper.
Treason for the sake of political gain.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I'm lost. Is there a benefit to NOT telling terrorists we're pulling out? Does it make a difference? Honestly, think about it. Even if it were wrong to suggest pulling out, if the enemies see this do you think they'll keep the same pressure on (because they are winning), pull back (because they won), or intensify (to make sure they won)? Does it really matter?ATG wrote:
http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=252128Announcing our war plans to the world is standing up and saying " Thank you, I'm a dipshit."llinois Sen. Barack Obama, called this afternoon for troop withdrawal from Iraq starting next year and negotiations with Iran and Syria over the war-torn country's future.
In a speech sure to draw political fire, the Democrat told attendees of a Chicago Council on Global Affairs event downtown that withdrawal should begin in the next four to six months and that those soldiers should be moved to Afghanistan to focus on terrorist groups again gaining strength in that country.
If these dumb ass hacks in Washington have a plan don't you think they talk about it in private?
This is political petty bullshit sound byte politics and has no bearing on national policy. Obama is simpy adding his voice to the chorus of babbeling heads to get attention. I think he ought to be authoring a bill or, sitting on a commitee...I dunno, doing something senators do before he is taken seriously.
The enemy wants us to cut and run, to face humiliation. Why do the democrats? What long term gain will be had be us appearing weak and irresolute?
It's not like Bush secretly pounced on Afghanistan or Iraq surprising anybody! lol Surely making the attack should be kept more secret than the withdrawal? Oh, but it was Bush who did it so it's ok.
Poor argument showing typical political divisiveness ATG.
Treason? What about discussing methods of torture..passing laws that outline which ones are ok? All those public announcements are free game for enemies to learn from and benefit from. Surely announcing and slowly assembling for an attack on their country was the first and greatest form of benefit for the enemies. Training them also qualifies for that..AND for treason.Kmarion wrote:
Treason for the sake of political gain.
Are you sure you're not harshing Barrack just because he is a democrat?
About Vietnam, if you completely failed to achieve your goals for the war, surely that would not be a victory?
What frustrates me the most his how everyone is all Bush'd out. For years the Reps bashed the Dems for sounding like defeatists. Now that the Dems won the tables have turned. Now all the Reps are cryin about how we are going to lose just because the Dems are in power. That is a very retarded outlook.
It's a moral booster. It gives them a goal as well. Now they know all they need to do is stick it out until then. No matter what your intentions are, the less informed your enemy is the better.IRONCHEF wrote:
I'm lost. Is there a benefit to NOT telling terrorists we're pulling out? Does it make a difference? Honestly, think about it. Even if it were wrong to suggest pulling out, if the enemies see this do you think they'll keep the same pressure on (because they are winning), pull back (because they won), or intensify (to make sure they won)? Does it really matter?
To me it does not matter what party they are associated with. I should tell you I voted Democrat for my state Gov. Don't confuse me with a Rep talking head because I don't beleive in sharing our timetable with the enemy.
Last edited by Kmarion (2006-11-21 14:20:02)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Dude, you are crazy and you asked for it.{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank wrote:
Personally, I want to get my tour in before we withdrawal. Call me crazy, but I want to do my part.Turquoise wrote:
When you can balance the budget and get Congress and the President to agree on spending cuts in other areas to account for the military spending necessary for staying in Iraq, then we'll talk about staying the course.ATG wrote:
http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=252128
Announcing our war plans to the world is standing up and saying " Thank you, I'm a dipshit."
If these dumb ass hacks in Washington have a plan don't you think they talk about it in private?
This is political petty bullshit sound byte politics and has no bearing on national policy. Obama is simpy adding his voice to the chorus of babbeling heads to get attention. I think he ought to be authoring a bill or, sitting on a commitee...I dunno, doing something senators do before he is taken seriously.
The enemy wants us to cut and run, to face humiliation. Why do the democrats? What long term gain will be had be us appearing weak and irresolute?
Until then, withdrawal is the only viable fiscal option we have.
But they won. THe fighting isn't over, but it is. Part of losing is giving victory. It sucks, but if they do their crazy jihad dancing in the streets because they heard from some US Senators that we're pulling out..it's part of the package. You can't blame our congress for that..let alone call them treasonous! Silly goose!Kmarion wrote:
It's a moral booster. It gives them a goal as well. Now they know all they need to do is stick it out until then. No matter what your intentions are, the less informed your enemy is the better.IRONCHEF wrote:
I'm lost. Is there a benefit to NOT telling terrorists we're pulling out? Does it make a difference? Honestly, think about it. Even if it were wrong to suggest pulling out, if the enemies see this do you think they'll keep the same pressure on (because they are winning), pull back (because they won), or intensify (to make sure they won)? Does it really matter?
To me it does not matter what party they are associated with. I should tell you I voted Democrat for my state Gov. Don't confuse me with a Rep talking head because I don't beleive in sharing our timetable with the enemy.
And he clearly forefills Mr. Kerry's requirement of nessisary education for the military with his 'before we withdrawals'.klassekock wrote:
Dude, you are crazy and you asked for it.{BMF}*Frank_The_Tank wrote:
Personally, I want to get my tour in before we withdrawal. Call me crazy, but I want to do my part.Turquoise wrote:
When you can balance the budget and get Congress and the President to agree on spending cuts in other areas to account for the military spending necessary for staying in Iraq, then we'll talk about staying the course.
Until then, withdrawal is the only viable fiscal option we have.
I'm joking, please don't stab me.
Last edited by ghettoperson (2006-11-21 14:31:09)
Anyone sharing military plans while STILL ENGAGED in military actions most certainly should be held accountable.IRONCHEF wrote:
But they won. THe fighting isn't over, but it is. Part of losing is giving victory. It sucks, but if they do their crazy jihad dancing in the streets because they heard from some US Senators that we're pulling out..it's part of the package. You can't blame our congress for that..let alone call them treasonous! Silly goose!Kmarion wrote:
It's a moral booster. It gives them a goal as well. Now they know all they need to do is stick it out until then. No matter what your intentions are, the less informed your enemy is the better.IRONCHEF wrote:
I'm lost. Is there a benefit to NOT telling terrorists we're pulling out? Does it make a difference? Honestly, think about it. Even if it were wrong to suggest pulling out, if the enemies see this do you think they'll keep the same pressure on (because they are winning), pull back (because they won), or intensify (to make sure they won)? Does it really matter?
To me it does not matter what party they are associated with. I should tell you I voted Democrat for my state Gov. Don't confuse me with a Rep talking head because I don't beleive in sharing our timetable with the enemy.
Silly willy
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Careful, don't make me quote white house leaks exposing military plans..not that they had any of their own other than "stay the course!" lol This is why i asked if you were being partisan because you and the OP are suggesting that this is a new form of lowness from politicians. Is it not likewise as treasonous when former military commanders go on talk shows or news features and talk about their strategies used and strategies pursued? HOw many jihadis are looking at our MSM and seeing the graphics they produce showing blast radius areas from bombs, JDAM depths, see how we're jamming phone signals while driving down the road hoping to avoid IEDs... I couldn't believe it..i saw some government n00b on a show saying that they're outfitting personnel carriers and other vehicles with jammers so cell phone rigged IEDs will fail...that alone, being probably the main killer of troops is treasonous...and they adapt.Kmarion wrote:
Anyone sharing military plans while STILL ENGAGED in military actions most certainly should be held accountable.IRONCHEF wrote:
But they won. THe fighting isn't over, but it is. Part of losing is giving victory. It sucks, but if they do their crazy jihad dancing in the streets because they heard from some US Senators that we're pulling out..it's part of the package. You can't blame our congress for that..let alone call them treasonous! Silly goose!Kmarion wrote:
It's a moral booster. It gives them a goal as well. Now they know all they need to do is stick it out until then. No matter what your intentions are, the less informed your enemy is the better.
To me it does not matter what party they are associated with. I should tell you I voted Democrat for my state Gov. Don't confuse me with a Rep talking head because I don't beleive in sharing our timetable with the enemy.
Silly willy
Telling them we're pulling out on July 15th 2007 will do the following:
1) Party hall rentals booked for July 16th will be sold out
2) Real government issues will be able to be addressed July 16th
3) The real killers among the enemies will hasten their attacks until they get their fill of death
4) The regular Iraqis defending their homelands will probably just go home declaring victory
5) Sunni Shia civil warfare will be easier to manage and subdue without the thorn in their sides
6) Iran and Syria will close up shop and call it a day.
Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-11-21 15:03:53)
Call them all out my man, like I said I don't give a shit whose party they are with. I don't play partisan politics. Especially when it comes to our troops and their safety. I criticize both sides.IRONCHEF wrote:
Careful, don't make me quote white house leaks exposing military plans..not that they had any of their own other than "stay the course!" lol This is why i asked if you were being partisan because you and the OP are suggesting that this is a new form of lowness from politicians. Is it not likewise as treasonous when former military commanders go on talk shows or news features and talk about their strategies used and strategies pursued? HOw many jihadis are looking at our MSM and seeing the graphics they produce showing blast radius areas from bombs, JDAM depths, see how we're jamming phone signals while driving down the road hoping to avoid IEDs... I couldn't believe it..i saw some government n00b on a show saying that they're outfitting personnel carriers and other vehicles with jammers so cell phone rigged IEDs will fail...that alone, being probably the main killer of troops is treasonous...and they adapt.Kmarion wrote:
Anyone sharing military plans while STILL ENGAGED in military actions most certainly should be held accountable.IRONCHEF wrote:
But they won. THe fighting isn't over, but it is. Part of losing is giving victory. It sucks, but if they do their crazy jihad dancing in the streets because they heard from some US Senators that we're pulling out..it's part of the package. You can't blame our congress for that..let alone call them treasonous! Silly goose!
Silly willy
.
Surely you must know by now, I'm too intelligent to be single minded..lol j/k
Last edited by Kmarion (2006-11-21 15:10:20)
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I completely agree 100%. Instead of listening to the media, why dont you ask a vet who has lived and experianced the shit first hand.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
ive posted many times in the that I do not feel we ever belonged there. so Im not gonna argue that with you dipshit. Im saying we are fucking kicking ass and we got people in the states so quick to jump on the "OMG, PEOPLE ARE DYING THE US IS LOSING" band wagon. the fucking cold, rock hard truth is that we ARENT FUCKING LOSING. there is no military defeat. the only defeat the United States will see is the one that people of this nation will bring upon ourselves from the comfort of their own living rooms. Success doesnt boost ratings, why report it. the media makes me sick. just so you know, I was US Army infantry in the heart of the god damn sunni triangle for 12 months out of my young life and I was shocked and on the verge of shame to get home from Iraq to think actually find out that we were losing the fight. since when? it is that defeatest talk thats gonna lose the war.Fen321 wrote:
the very reason you believe it is a defeat is the very reason why they might possibly win. - GunGunSlinger OIF II wrote:
the very reason you believe it is a defeat is the very reason why they might possibly win.
this...
http://images-partners.google.com/image … camera.gif
is the weapon that is winning the insurgent fight.
See now i stated that there is no evidence for us to even be in the region and all you can respond with is that they are winning due to the media. So if the terrorist "win" what do you think will happen?
The war was so damn pointless, considering there is no terror link to it nor do the sanctions placed on Iraq constitute acceptable practices by IGOs. So if the UN breaks IL it kinda defeats the purpose of its very existence.
WHO FUCKING CARES ABOUT WHETHER WE BELONG THERE OR NOT. WE ARE THERE NOW. FRUSTRATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, i listed a couple above. Another favorite is Rove outting Plame which was a huge, treasonable offense..but hey, can't exercise due process on that shitbag or his boss because they're chicken shits who can't go under oath... Revealing a CIA operative's (regardless of what people think her duties were) identity is actually treasonous, and it puts other CIA operatives and other national security issues at risk.Kmarion wrote:
Call them all out my man, like I said I don't give a shit whose party they are with. I don't play partisan politics. Especially when it comes to our troops and their safety. I criticize both sides.
Surely you must know by now, I'm too intelligent to be single minded..lol j/k
I'm not really about to go plowing through liberal blog archives to name more, but like there are many that just baffle me and make me wonder what's going on? Where's the accountability??
Our enemy in Iraq is currently all of Iraq, our ally is also, Iraq. Face facts, we don't have an enemy in Iraq. "Insurgents" is not a defined group of people, and as such, they cannot hold any unified want. Maybe you should take your own advise and cut the petty sound byte "the terrorists want us to cut and run" politics?ATG wrote:
The enemy wants us to cut and run, to face humiliation. Why do the democrats? What long term gain will be had be us appearing weak and irresolute?
I'd mention that ATG is senile because he doesn't see that the motivation for Democrats wanting a withdrawal is actually not to appease the enemies or to cut and run and make our troops feel humiliation..but TO SAVE AMERICAN LIVES!! But it's not something neo-cons can fathom..all they want is to sacrifice Americans to spread freedom....jonsimon wrote:
Our enemy in Iraq is currently all of Iraq, our ally is also, Iraq. Face facts, we don't have an enemy in Iraq. "Insurgents" is not a defined group of people, and as such, they cannot hold any unified want. Maybe you should take your own advise and cut the petty sound byte "the terrorists want us to cut and run" politics?ATG wrote:
The enemy wants us to cut and run, to face humiliation. Why do the democrats? What long term gain will be had be us appearing weak and irresolute?
I think if you polled American soldiers who are being fired on daily and asked if they preferred returning home vs. being killed...it would be a landslide. The only humiliation is for the warmongers.
Why do you think the terrorists want us to cut and run? How does that help them at all?
Right now we have a huge army costing tons of money on a daily basis, while they're gaining power and praise from there people. Fighting the good fight, this is what they lived for what they actually want to happen. They are looking for a financle win in this situation, it's what they did to Russia and now they're doing it to us..
Right now we have a huge army costing tons of money on a daily basis, while they're gaining power and praise from there people. Fighting the good fight, this is what they lived for what they actually want to happen. They are looking for a financle win in this situation, it's what they did to Russia and now they're doing it to us..
I'd want those that gave me the ability to vote in an a real election for the first time in years to stay until my country could defend itself and kick out the insurgents.unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Imagine if the situation was reversed, and somebody was talking about negotiations with Canada and Mexico over a war-torn US's future?llinois Sen. Barack Obama, called this afternoon for troop withdrawal from Iraq starting next year and negotiations with Iran and Syria over the war-torn country's future.
I see Iraq as a defeat, because of what some other posters have said. I'll elaborate in my own way as well...GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
defeat? why do you consider it a defeat. I disagree.Turquoise wrote:
I agree. America is just too stubborn to understand defeat. It took a severe beating with Vietnam before we grasped that concept.GunSlinger OIF II wrote:
silly rabbits. nobody is leaving Iraq anytime soon, you could take that the bank. I am still surprised over how people really actually expect us to leave that place within the next few years. we are in there for the long haul. but hey, dont take my word for it.
We went into Iraq thinking we could turn it into a democratic, progressive country. Instead, we've turned it into a hotbed of terror. So yes, we've failed.
Those of you that advocate staying longer in Iraq seem to forget that we're running a huge deficit right now, so the only feasible way to stay there is to balance the budget through massive spending cuts. Until at least one party decides to make the necessary cuts, we're headed for financial ruin.
He betrated his king?Kmarion wrote:
Treason for the sake of political gain.
Yeah, like those guys from Haditha. You know, the ones who went on a killing spree?arabeater wrote:
I completely agree 100%. Instead of listening to the media, why dont you ask a vet who has lived and experianced the shit first hand.