Yes and no, as I said above, all people are capable of doing good, but not without the influence of moral values. Moral values are derived from religious principles, the Ten Commandments being a good example. Honor your parent, don't lie, don't steal, don't murder, don't commit adultery etc. are all religious principles that are basic moral values.KylieTastic wrote:
I do hope your not equating religion or even just the belief in a higher power, being linked to having morals!?Stingray24 wrote:
So the world would be a better place if there were no moral values restraining our selfish nature? I believe all people are capable of doing good, but only because of the influence of moral values.
Poll
Would the US be a better place without religion?
| Yes | 60% | 60% - 76 | ||||
| No | 39% | 39% - 50 | ||||
| Total: 126 | ||||||
I would say that was totally the wrong way arround...Stingray24 wrote:
... Moral values are derived from religious principles,.....
Moral values come from people, but not all people, so religion (or govenments etc) took them and wrote them down (added the threat of eternal damnation, or jail, as a scare tactic) to try to control the non conformists.
It is a frequent claim of religion that they invented morals: but I see no evidence of that, just that they were writen down by religion (along with other organisations as sets of rules or laws).
Food for thought:
There unfortunately havnt been many studdies that I have heard of but one that was done found that Athiests couples were much less likely to cheat or devoice then Christian ones (think that was a US studdy).
Last edited by KylieTastic (2006-11-22 11:14:02)
From where did the religions and governments derive the moral values? It came from somewhere. Yes, humans certainly wrote them down in our language. I find it interesting that scores of atheists throughout history did not write down reams of moral values for people to follow, only “religious” people. Atheists were busy trying to convince everyone there was no God and no overriding truth to be found.KylieTastic wrote:
I would say that was totally the wrong way arround...Stingray24 wrote:
... Moral values are derived from religious principles,.....
Moral values come from people, but not all people, so religion (or govenments etc) took them and wrote them down (added the threat of eternal damnation, or jail, as a scare tactic) to try to control the non conformists.
It is a frequent claim of religion that they invented morals: but I see no evidence of that, just that they were writen down by religion (along with other organisations as sets of rules or laws).
Food for thought:
There unfortunately havnt been many studdies that I have heard of but one that was done found that Athiests couples were much less likely to cheat or devoice then Christian ones (think that was a US studdy).
Citing the moral failings of imperfect human beings is not a good way to build a case for humans being the source of morality. From my perspective that further proves that we did not fashion morality absent any higher power. Because we are imperfect, we cannot possibly be the source of truth. It must come from a source that is morally “higher” than us to be objective. If we’re all making up our own version that suits us, everyone’s “truth” then ceases to be such because it’s all different.
Atheists who do not cheat or get divorced are following basic Christian principles, though they would probably not acknowledge them as such. They may claim their morality is their own, but the very act of following Christian principles contradicts their atheistic philosophy. If they followed their atheism in a consistent manner, the end result would be the choice to do whatever they want. From their perspective, morality is only concocted by other human beings and holds no weight. So in the atheistic philosophy I find no reason to be moral, let alone a foundation for morality.
Where moral values derived is impossible to say (unless you have a relationship with God and already know the answer to this). But if you can associate religious principles with the first recorded human history..then you can easily say religion was the source or at least the dominating source for the first moral values.
Take the earliest known civilizations and ask if they had religious teachings among them... Romans? Persians? the Chinese and Egyptian dynasties? Chaldeans, Arabs, Israelites, etc...? Were religious teachings taught in every civilization you can think of? Yes. Is it safe to say that being kind to others was practiced among all those peoples? Probably. So what is more reasonable...to attach "be kind to others" to religion or to the nature of man? Keep in mind that people were waaaaaay more religious minded then they are in this age of time. There's always been the atheists...but among the major civilizations I've always heard of...religion is right there teaching or offending people.
Take the earliest known civilizations and ask if they had religious teachings among them... Romans? Persians? the Chinese and Egyptian dynasties? Chaldeans, Arabs, Israelites, etc...? Were religious teachings taught in every civilization you can think of? Yes. Is it safe to say that being kind to others was practiced among all those peoples? Probably. So what is more reasonable...to attach "be kind to others" to religion or to the nature of man? Keep in mind that people were waaaaaay more religious minded then they are in this age of time. There's always been the atheists...but among the major civilizations I've always heard of...religion is right there teaching or offending people.
Last edited by IRONCHEF (2006-11-22 14:51:25)
They're called Christian values now, what do you think they were called before Christ? Oh, that's right, before Christ everyone was evil, and used to steal each others televisions.Stingray24 wrote:
Citing the moral failings of imperfect human beings is not a good way to build a case for humans being the source of morality. From my perspective that further proves that we did not fashion morality absent any higher power. Because we are imperfect, we cannot possibly be the source of truth. It must come from a source that is morally “higher” than us to be objective. If we’re all making up our own version that suits us, everyone’s “truth” then ceases to be such because it’s all different.
Atheists who do not cheat or get divorced are following basic Christian principles, though they would probably not acknowledge them as such. They may claim their morality is their own, but the very act of following Christian principles contradicts their atheistic philosophy. If they followed their atheism in a consistent manner, the end result would be the choice to do whatever they want. From their perspective, morality is only concocted by other human beings and holds no weight. So in the atheistic philosophy I find no reason to be moral, let alone a foundation for morality.
A higher being tells me the right thing to do, so I can't possibly get it wrong. And you don't listen to Him, so you can't possibly get it right.
FFS this logic is probably a good indicator....
Yeah ok, tell that to the Muslims, you know, the religion that teaches you that the main mission of the religion is to make the whole world follow Islam. They also teach that if a person is not Muslim, they are basically impure trash. So yeah, the US would be better off without atleast that one. Any religion that doesn't open its houses of worship to non Muslims(unlike other religions) and keep there teachings inside these places such a big secret, leads one to believe the stories.CameronPoe wrote:
The entire enlightened/civilized world no longer needs religion and would be better off without it.
But to answer the original question, The whole world would be better off without any religion.
Religion is a disease of the impoverished [very harsh - I know I'm generalising and exaggerating but look at Africa or Latin America - far more people look to God when they've got problems]. That's why Islam is not dying off like Christianity yet...<[onex]>Headstone wrote:
Yeah ok, tell that to the Muslims, you know, the religion that teaches you that the main mission of the religion is to make the whole world follow Islam. They also teach that if a person is not Muslim, they are basically impure trash. So yeah, the US would be better off without atleast that one. Any religion that doesn't open its houses of worship to non Muslims(unlike other religions) and keep there teachings inside these places such a big secret, leads one to believe the stories.CameronPoe wrote:
The entire enlightened/civilized world no longer needs religion and would be better off without it.
But to answer the original question, The whole world would be better off without any religion.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-22 16:07:40)
Actually I think other non religious groups had "moral" rules written down.... Also Im sure lots of individual Atheists wrote them down.... religions point was to push them as the word of God, all an Atheist could say would be "hey I think it would be cool if we all didnt like kill, steal etc... anyone agree with me?"Stingray24 wrote:
......I find it interesting that scores of atheists throughout history did not write down reams of moral values for people to follow, only “religious” people.
Your original main point of morals was the commandments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commandments note that the first 5 on the list (of 12 depending on religion) are not moral but actually take me to the answer to your point to why religious write them down... "Control!"
And what does religion do try to but convice everyone there is a God? And an Antheist canonly sepak for there own exact beliefs I do believe in an "overriding truth to be found" - just not making up a GOD to fill in the blanks that we havnt/cant work out.Stingray24 wrote:
Atheists were busy trying to convince everyone there was no God and no overriding truth to be found.
So not just religious morals but your Christian principles! The absolute arrogance to say they are your principles - Christianity gfot the Patent? I don't cheat on people because I think about the affect on the other person and that I expect the same - not because its written in a book or some threat of punishment later! I do it because its just the right thing to do!Stingray24 wrote:
Atheists who do not cheat or get divorced are following basic Christian principles, though they would probably not acknowledge them as such.
Where do you get this crap from: Atheism means we just don't believe in any 'gods' - you seam to be confusing it with Anarchism. There isnt anything to 'follow' thats the point! Since there obviously isn't any scriptures, leaders etc.. (its purely individual) some may choose "to do whatever they want" but thats why we have governments, etc. Most Atheists I've heard the opionions of believe very much in only doing "what they want" if it doesn't affect others.Stingray24 wrote:
If they followed their atheism in a consistent manner, the end result would be the choice to do whatever they want.
Again you invent what we as atheistic individuals think, or sorry probably just quote your religions made up ideas about Atheists. But you do cover a point I often think: that many religious people don't have any morals at all, you just do it because your told too.Stingray24 wrote:
From their perspective, morality is only concocted by other human beings and holds no weight. So in the atheistic philosophy I find no reason to be moral, let alone a foundation for morality.
I, thats me, as an individual, an atheist but not part of any group do "find a reason to be moral"
By saying "So in the atheistic philosophy I find no reason to be moral" you are just saying that you as an individual without your religion don't see a reason not to kill, cheat, steal..... because the only 'atheistic philosophy' that exists is what you as an individual think!
Up to your last post there had been a good debate, but this last post was just "GOD exists", "your WRONG", and worst of all "this is what you THINK" (and by you I mean the made up organized 'religion' of Atheism.
I did not tell you what you believe, but I did tell you what I believe. Quite a difference. In your post, you expressed your belief that religious people do what they do because they're told to. I can say for myself, that is false. You can believe that religious people have no morals, that is your prerogative.
In my previous post I was expressing my opinion about atheistic philosophy in general. I understand everyone has there personal take on how far they carry their atheism. You seem to be a moral person from what you describe and I respect that. I am not trying to directly address your specific beliefs because I don't know what they are. The direction I'm going with this is philosophical and not intended to impugn anyone's character here. I am doing my best to communicate that atheism as a school of thought cannot support morals. I do not mean that atheists are all immoral people incapable of doing good. On the contrary, I've said before that I believe all human beings are capable of good. If a person who calls themself an atheist does believe there is overriding truth, they contradict their atheism in my opinion. That is the point I was trying to express, apparently I have not succeeded.
In my previous post I was expressing my opinion about atheistic philosophy in general. I understand everyone has there personal take on how far they carry their atheism. You seem to be a moral person from what you describe and I respect that. I am not trying to directly address your specific beliefs because I don't know what they are. The direction I'm going with this is philosophical and not intended to impugn anyone's character here. I am doing my best to communicate that atheism as a school of thought cannot support morals. I do not mean that atheists are all immoral people incapable of doing good. On the contrary, I've said before that I believe all human beings are capable of good. If a person who calls themself an atheist does believe there is overriding truth, they contradict their atheism in my opinion. That is the point I was trying to express, apparently I have not succeeded.
There's a difference between using religion to improve one's life and morals and actually using it as a basis for initiating war. I don't recall the US getting involved in any war because it was the "will of Allah". There are a few very rare problems in the US, such as Jesus Camp, but for the most part, religion helps the average citizen more than it hurts. As for old-minded countries, such as those in the Middle East, it is quite the opposite.