MajorSpittle
Member
+7|3062|Oregun

SuperJail Warden wrote:

MajorSpittle wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:


It didn't fail though. It worked. Our disengagement is what doomed Iraq. There was peace in northern Iraq when we left.



What the hell are you talking about freedom? The Iraqi constitution is freer than the American.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitut … d_freedoms


How are you supposed to give them freedom (???) without eliminating ISIS open movement and political control.
I was just pointing out that it is pointless to do anything militarily unless it is in parallel with removing Islamic control over the people's lives.  That didn't happen in iraq.  Sharia law ruled, people could express other religious veiws, people could not leave that religion.  Islam was addressed right in the Constitution for iraq. It took precedence over everything.
Sharia law did not rule in Iraq. Islamic principles were cited as the basis of the government but the courts and legal system was secular in practice and by law. Sharia was only applicable as an option in civil cases such as divorce and marriage. But many U.S. states allow Sharia courts to have it as an option also.

I made the point multiple times that by the time we left Iraq there was peace. Do you have a response explaining why the military solution used back then that worked would not be repeatable?
Because as soon as the military leaves......  nevermind we should just do the same thing.  It is the American way.

Sigh
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Could someone, anyone, give we some solutions to ISIS and attacks originating from them? I have yet to see a single idea from any of you. Just a lot of complaining.
They're fighting because they're poor and hopeless. Bombing them into the stone age isn't helping them in any way. If you want stability it doesn't come from installing puppet democracies or occupation, it comes from economic hope. The Saudi kleptocrats are the core problem. They're the ones instigating violence in order to deflect criticism away from their essentially feudal system. Rabble roses at home? Create a foreign war for them to blow off steam in.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England

MajorSpittle wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

MajorSpittle wrote:


I was just pointing out that it is pointless to do anything militarily unless it is in parallel with removing Islamic control over the people's lives.  That didn't happen in iraq.  Sharia law ruled, people could express other religious veiws, people could not leave that religion.  Islam was addressed right in the Constitution for iraq. It took precedence over everything.
Sharia law did not rule in Iraq. Islamic principles were cited as the basis of the government but the courts and legal system was secular in practice and by law. Sharia was only applicable as an option in civil cases such as divorce and marriage. But many U.S. states allow Sharia courts to have it as an option also.

I made the point multiple times that by the time we left Iraq there was peace. Do you have a response explaining why the military solution used back then that worked would not be repeatable?
Because as soon as the military leaves......  nevermind we should just do the same thing.  It is the American way.

Sigh
Don't argue with the neo-con, it's not his ass going off to fight pointless wars.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
MajorSpittle
Member
+7|3062|Oregun

Jay wrote:

MajorSpittle wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:


Sharia law did not rule in Iraq. Islamic principles were cited as the basis of the government but the courts and legal system was secular in practice and by law. Sharia was only applicable as an option in civil cases such as divorce and marriage. But many U.S. states allow Sharia courts to have it as an option also.

I made the point multiple times that by the time we left Iraq there was peace. Do you have a response explaining why the military solution used back then that worked would not be repeatable?
Because as soon as the military leaves......  nevermind we should just do the same thing.  It is the American way.

Sigh
Don't argue with the neo-con, it's not his ass going off to fight pointless wars.
I kind of like how other countries are dealing with the problem, maybe it is time for the US to sit back and learn.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690
We should have a permanent residual occupation and assistance force. I am not sure exactly how many but somewhere in the low tens of thousands I could live with.
I kind of like how other countries are dealing with the problem, maybe it is time for the US to sit back and learn
Learn how to get blown up?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690
A U.S. Defense Department official toldThe New York Times the Russian government warned the U.S. it would be carrying out “a significant number of strikes in Raqqa,” the Islamic State’s stronghold in Syria, before the first strikes launched
Russia bombs Raqqa a few hours ago. France bombed Raqqa a few days ago. The U.S. has been bombing Raqqa for over a year.

Seriously wonder what everyone is bombing. I have an uncomfortable feeling that everyone is choosing to bomb the city indiscriminately.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
MajorSpittle
Member
+7|3062|Oregun

SuperJail Warden wrote:

A U.S. Defense Department official toldThe New York Times the Russian government warned the U.S. it would be carrying out “a significant number of strikes in Raqqa,” the Islamic State’s stronghold in Syria, before the first strikes launched
Russia bombs Raqqa a few hours ago. France bombed Raqqa a few days ago. The U.S. has been bombing Raqqa for over a year.

Seriously wonder what everyone is bombing. I have an uncomfortable feeling that everyone is choosing to bomb the city indiscriminately.
Pointless political military actions are largely pointless.  But you gotta give the voters what they want.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Could someone, anyone, give we some solutions to ISIS and attacks originating from them? I have yet to see a single idea from any of you. Just a lot of complaining.
They're fighting because they're poor and hopeless. Bombing them into the stone age isn't helping them in any way. If you want stability it doesn't come from installing puppet democracies or occupation, it comes from economic hope. The Saudi kleptocrats are the core problem. They're the ones instigating violence in order to deflect criticism away from their essentially feudal system. Rabble roses at home? Create a foreign war for them to blow off steam in.
The U.S. government cannot convince poor hopeless black kids in Detroit not to kill each other over sneakers. You will not ever be able to convince the entire Arab Muslim world.


What you can do is eliminate ISIS camps, destroy their convoys, destroy their weapons, and create a local national guard that will stop attacks in their country and collect and pass on intelligence. You can build that force out of resettled refugees and friendly rebels and defectors. After all, according to you, all they need is a paycheck.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
MajorSpittle
Member
+7|3062|Oregun

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Could someone, anyone, give we some solutions to ISIS and attacks originating from them? I have yet to see a single idea from any of you. Just a lot of complaining.
They're fighting because they're poor and hopeless. Bombing them into the stone age isn't helping them in any way. If you want stability it doesn't come from installing puppet democracies or occupation, it comes from economic hope. The Saudi kleptocrats are the core problem. They're the ones instigating violence in order to deflect criticism away from their essentially feudal system. Rabble roses at home? Create a foreign war for them to blow off steam in.
The U.S. government cannot convince poor hopeless black kids in Detroit not to kill each other over sneakers. You will not ever be able to convince the entire Arab Muslim world.


What you can do is eliminate ISIS camps, destroy their convoys, destroy their weapons, and create a local national guard that will stop attacks in their country and collect and pass on intelligence. You can build that force out of resettled refugees and friendly rebels and defectors. After all, according to you, all they need is a paycheck.
EXACTLY, all they need is a paycheck.  This is why ISIS pays off just a few people in the government, military, police.

THEY HAVE NO FREEDOM TO FIGHT FOR.  Their families get slaughtered while they are at work, if they help the military, if they show too much ankle in public.......  IT IS THE FUCKING RELIGION.

We must give them the education, security, exposure to new beliefs,...... ie FREEDOM FROM ISLAMIC REPRESSION.  You have to occupy a long damn time and socially re-engineer the whole area.  Once they taste the freedom, change their beliefs, reject islamic repression as "the norm", and freedom spreads then you can leave. 

What the area needs is Sadam back.  An islamic badass that allows freedom of religion because he is more worried about him being the only person with power than really caring about the religion he uses to secure his power.  Someone so ruthless that all the islamic nutters won't stand up to him when he allows people to violate islamic law and convert to whatever they want and has no problem killing off a person and their whole family if they don't play by his rules.

All the muslims over there are terrorists by western standards.  They have no problem with gays being killed for being gay, women being beaten for this and that, honor killings, or people being put in prison/killed for converting from islam.  It is all they know.  It is societal tradition over there.  It is really fucked up and evil.  Everywhere there is the slightest moderation in beliefs and hope, the most radical of the muslims sweep in and kill everyone.  They can't have anything good, hope, or knowledge in islamic countries because that corrupts the power base that keeps people trapped in that mental disorder of a religion.
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690
I swear to god it is like trying to have a conversation with Ann Coulter with you.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England

MajorSpittle wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:


They're fighting because they're poor and hopeless. Bombing them into the stone age isn't helping them in any way. If you want stability it doesn't come from installing puppet democracies or occupation, it comes from economic hope. The Saudi kleptocrats are the core problem. They're the ones instigating violence in order to deflect criticism away from their essentially feudal system. Rabble roses at home? Create a foreign war for them to blow off steam in.
The U.S. government cannot convince poor hopeless black kids in Detroit not to kill each other over sneakers. You will not ever be able to convince the entire Arab Muslim world.


What you can do is eliminate ISIS camps, destroy their convoys, destroy their weapons, and create a local national guard that will stop attacks in their country and collect and pass on intelligence. You can build that force out of resettled refugees and friendly rebels and defectors. After all, according to you, all they need is a paycheck.
EXACTLY, all they need is a paycheck.  This is why ISIS pays off just a few people in the government, military, police.

THEY HAVE NO FREEDOM TO FIGHT FOR.  Their families get slaughtered while they are at work, if they help the military, if they show too much ankle in public.......  IT IS THE FUCKING RELIGION.

We must give them the education, security, exposure to new beliefs,...... ie FREEDOM FROM ISLAMIC REPRESSION.  You have to occupy a long damn time and socially re-engineer the whole area.  Once they taste the freedom, change their beliefs, reject islamic repression as "the norm", and freedom spreads then you can leave. 

What the area needs is Sadam back.  An islamic badass that allows freedom of religion because he is more worried about him being the only person with power than really caring about the religion he uses to secure his power.  Someone so ruthless that all the islamic nutters won't stand up to him when he allows people to violate islamic law and convert to whatever they want and has no problem killing off a person and their whole family if they don't play by his rules.

All the muslims over there are terrorists by western standards.  They have no problem with gays being killed for being gay, women being beaten for this and that, honor killings, or people being put in prison/killed for converting from islam.  It is all they know.  It is societal tradition over there.  It is really fucked up and evil.  Everywhere there is the slightest moderation in beliefs and hope, the most radical of the muslims sweep in and kill everyone.  They can't have anything good, hope, or knowledge in islamic countries because that corrupts the power base that keeps people trapped in that mental disorder of a religion.
Freedom has nothing to do with it. Most people don't give a shit about freedom, they want someone to direct their life for them. It's why programs like social security, medicare and obamacare are popular. Someone else is doing the saving and spending for them. Freedom means you have to choose between 17 different types of deodorant at the store. For most people, they'd rather have one or two options because it takes less effort. Freedom is for the thinkers in society, and they're incredibly rare.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
MajorSpittle
Member
+7|3062|Oregun
Freedom can also mean not needing to wear a burka because you will be stoned to death without it.  It can mean not living in fear of a brain dead intolerant religion's rules.  It can mean being able to speak new ideas without being killed for insulting he who shall not be named, peace be upon him.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England
Is it better to live in a society where any interaction with a police officer may lead to your death? Where smoking a joint can bring a midnight no-knock raid? Where holding the wrong opinion can lead to termination from your job and being blacklisted? We don't live in a free society. We live in a society that constantly tries to control and regulate the behavior of others. How many times have you heard "there should be a law"? You're just as free as Mr sharia, your freedom simply looks different.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6603|949

oh yeah, social security and medicare are sooo popular.  People are just clamoring to get on them on never get off.  Most of the people I've talked to that have experienced medicare and social security have nothing but good things to say about them! ahahaha what a joke.

"Freedom is for the thinkers in society".  How profound.  I mean stupid
uziq
Member
+492|3423
"freedom is for the thinkers in society"
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

oh yeah, social security and medicare are sooo popular.  People are just clamoring to get on them on never get off.  Most of the people I've talked to that have experienced medicare and social security have nothing but good things to say about them! ahahaha what a joke.

"Freedom is for the thinkers in society".  How profound.  I mean stupid
How many people don't save a penny for retirement? Like it or not, most retirees are dependent on social security and medicare.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
MajorSpittle
Member
+7|3062|Oregun

Jay wrote:

Is it better to live in a society where any interaction with a police officer may lead to your death? Where smoking a joint can bring a midnight no-knock raid? Where holding the wrong opinion can lead to termination from your job and being blacklisted? We don't live in a free society. We live in a society that constantly tries to control and regulate the behavior of others. How many times have you heard "there should be a law"? You're just as free as Mr sharia, your freedom simply looks different.
what are you on?  you simply know nothing about which you speak so I really can't reply other than say, stand on a sidewalk in mecca with a bible in hand preaching gay rights while your wife wears a summer time dress. 

Then come back and you understand what I am talking about when I say "Freedom from Islam".

Hell, soon we won't have freedom from Islam in the west.  When the cartoonist was murdered and when the draw mohammad convention in texas took place there where plenty of people speaking out about how wrong it is to challenge Islamic repression in the west with freedom and the people created the violence by not submitting to islamic teachings.

This is the thinking that allows islam to survive.  It validates islam and along with it empowers the most radical in its ranks.  Just like the Germans did with Nazism.  Left unchallenged, the most worst of society creates the rules for the sheep.

You equating Islamic Law with western law is what empowers Islam even in the middle east.  If American's would have demanded that we didn't invade Iraq without the intent of instilling a Western style democracy free of Islamic influence, the Christian/Jew/Atheists.... would have stood a chance to be empowered in the system and grow in ranks to fight to keep their freedom from islamic repression after the US left.

Instead of people rising up for freedom over there, we have people rising up against anyone who doesn't bow before islamic law.  So much for the Arab Spring.
uziq
Member
+492|3423
i hear you rallying about the poisonous values of islam a lot but never championing or embodying the western values that you claim to be far superior: tolerance, understanding, pluralism, freedom to make your own choice in faith and identity. how exactly do you force democracy on someone? it's a paradox.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,973|6603|949

stand on a corner in the deep south with a burning confederate flag and a pro-Obummer banner while kissing your boyfriend and see how that plays out too.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6687

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

stand on a corner in the deep south with a burning confederate flag and a pro-Obummer banner while kissing your boyfriend and see how that plays out too.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6077|eXtreme to the maX

SuperJail Warden wrote:

What you can do is eliminate ISIS camps, destroy their convoys, destroy their weapons, and create a local national guard that will stop attacks in their country and collect and pass on intelligence. You can build that force out of resettled refugees and friendly rebels and defectors. After all, according to you, all they need is a paycheck.
Didn't really work so well in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam.....

The US invariably goes in and does the wrong thing, upping the ante and antagonising pretty well everyone.

Back the Kurds and let them sort it out.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
MajorSpittle
Member
+7|3062|Oregun
The Kurds, really?  Kurds suck dude, they are just the enemy's enemy.

Maybe we could try staying the fuck out of it and let europe do something for once.  Secure our borders and fix our huge debt problem at home.

US doesn't need to do shit, give peace a chance.  Let Europe sort it out, it is in their backyard after all.

I for one dream of a full fucking decade of the US not being in some damn war.  I want to turn on the news and hear about the US population going down, people in ghettos going to work, and the education system working.  My whole life has been watching my country going to shit while being at war to " fix " the world's problems.  Not 1 thing fixed by US wars in my lifetime, trillions spent, thousands of dead troops, thousands of dead innocent civilians. 

I need another beer.

Last edited by MajorSpittle (2015-11-18 23:36:05)

Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6077|eXtreme to the maX
Most of the worlds problems were created by the US in the first place though.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England
We are a tiny island nation that had a large, far-flung empire that extracted wealth over the barrel of a gun, created countries out of tribes in order to govern better, and generally got the world riled up against English speakers?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+634|3690

Dilbert_X wrote:

Most of the worlds problems were created by the US in the first place though.

Jay wrote:

We are a tiny island nation that had a large, far-flung empire that extracted wealth over the barrel of a gun, created countries out of tribes in order to govern better, and generally got the world riled up against English speakers?
I think we can make a compromise and say that this is basically all white peoples fault.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg

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