United States War in Iraq -- Can We Afford to Lose?

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United States War in Iraq -- Can We Afford to Lose?

2020-01-06 13:02:42

#501

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5573|London, England

uziq wrote:
the election, not impeachment.

Starting a war with Iran wouldn't gain him a single vote he wouldn't already have. Trump Derangement Syndrome has managed to force the Democrats to score several own goals, however. They're defending Iran, shitting on US troops, calling Americans imperialist trash etc. The anti-war activists that were active under Bush and silent under Obama have come out of the woodwork. Between impeachment and now this, the reaction to Trump is losing the Dems votes.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2020-01-06 13:13:36

#502

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +640|3935

I think Trump will get reelected while losing the popular vote again. But I don't buy into this narrative that there has been some overwhelming revulsion against the democrats for how they treat Trump. Nancy P. wouldn't be running the House of Representatives if people were enthusiastic about the Trump administration. I also think the triumphalism of the Trump's supporters will be repaid drastically once the democrats are inevitably back in power.

2020-01-06 13:19:15

#503

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|6987|PNW

Anti-war groups battle for survival
https://www.politico.com/story/2010/09/ … val-041779 2010

Obama Continues Bush’s Attacks on Activists
https://original.antiwar.com/kevin-b-ze … activists/ 2010

Anti-war chants heard in the Rose Garden during Obama's speech
https://www.answercoalition.org/anti_wa … ose_garden 2013

Medea Benjamin's Anti-War Activism: Wearing Pink, Seeing Red
https://www.npr.org/2013/09/14/22233934 … seeing-red 2013

ZERO trace!!

The term "Trump Derangement Syndrome" is literally retarded. Make any sort of criticism against the president? Trump Derangement Syndrome! Calm about it? Trump Derangement Syndrome! You're just allergic to fun!

Remember when conservative pundits who were absolutely against Clinton's interventionism got all hawk and bothered for the Bush Jr. grand adventure? And not to apply whataboutism. When aren't there people who are quiet about the blunders of their favored party?

2020-01-06 13:24:33

#504

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5573|London, England

unnamednewbie13 wrote:
Anti-war groups battle for survival
https://www.politico.com/story/2010/09/ … val-041779 2010

Obama Continues Bush’s Attacks on Activists
https://original.antiwar.com/kevin-b-ze … activists/ 2010

Anti-war chants heard in the Rose Garden during Obama's speech
https://www.answercoalition.org/anti_wa … ose_garden 2013

Medea Benjamin's Anti-War Activism: Wearing Pink, Seeing Red
https://www.npr.org/2013/09/14/22233934 … seeing-red 2013

ZERO trace!!

The term "Trump Derangement Syndrome" is literally retarded. Make any sort of criticism against the president? Trump Derangement Syndrome! Calm about it? Trump Derangement Syndrome! You're just allergic to fun!

Remember when conservative pundits who were absolutely against Clinton's interventionism got all hawk and bothered for the Bush Jr. grand adventure? And not to apply whataboutism. When aren't there people who are quiet about the blunders of their favored party?

From your own link:
"“We don’t have a very vibrant anti-war movement anymore,” lamented Medea Benjamin, co-founder of Codepink, one of the anti-war movement’s most visible organizations. “The issues have not changed very much. … Now we have a surge [in Afghanistan] that we would have been furious about under George Bush, yet it’s hard to mobilize people under Obama. We have the same anti -war movement and not the same passion.”

MoveOn.org, which produced a 2007 anti-war newspaper ad labeling Gen. David Petraeus “General Betray Us” for the surge in Iraq, has largely been silent, despite a similar U.S. strategy in Afghanistan with Petraeus at the helm. Cindy Sheehan, perhaps the most famous anti-war protester, believes the peace movement is over. And United for Peace and Justice — once the largest of three major anti-war coalitions — has practically dissolved. "

2020-01-06 13:29:43

#505

Larssen: Member; +99|2103

uziq wrote:
the election, not impeachment.

It still paints a comic book villain picture. That the real reason wasn't Trump's ideology, foreign policy, or his judgment on intelligence presented by his advisors, but that it's a power play for domestic politics. Impossible to argue because it can be neither proven nor disproven, but the idea of the 'hidden motive' behind what we're seeing is certainly alluring. I prefer not to dive into that sort of thinking.

Whether it will help or hurt his bid for the presidency remains to be seen. For now he can have his triumph among his supporters and live out his strongman fantasy, but I'm not sure if that will still be true half a year from now.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-01-06 13:30:49)

2020-01-06 13:33:48

#506

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,813|6321|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:
as with every crank, you take a germ of truth and then contaminate it with a virus of conspiratorial anti-semitic thinking.

it's pretty well-established that the top-level hawks in the neocon establishment wanted to invade/create regime change in 2-3 middle eastern states. i'm pretty sure even kissinger was advocating for it, way before rumsfeld/cheney took the reins.

as for 'deliberately allowing' bin laden to escape and everything else: i think you're attributing far too much to design. better to always assume that simple incompetence and chance gets in the way. there really is only a tiny degree of control and aforethought available in such matters.

Nope, I read Jim Mattis' book. He and the Marines had a solid plan to capture or kill Bin Laden in Afghanistan, he was actively prevented from doing so. He reckoned it was recognised to be the strategic blunder of the century.

I'm right on everything else. You, Jay and Larssen are trying and failing to find a pattern and motive in US behaviour in the ME, its simple, the US wants the whole region reduced to rubble so there is no-one who can threaten or contain Israel.

Obama wasn't part of the program, so he killed Bin Laden and contained Iran - inconvenient.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-01-06 13:34:35)

Fuck Israel

2020-01-06 13:38:19

#507

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +640|3935

The scale of the Iraq War dwarfs Obama's war. The conflicts in Syria, Libya, and Yemen were civil wars that we intervened in. They were already killing each other there. Our commitments were small and are causes possibly even just.

2020-01-06 13:39:54

#508

unnamednewbie13: Moderator; +2,053|6987|PNW

Jay wrote:
unnamednewbie13 wrote:
-
From your own link:
"“We don’t have a very vibrant anti-war movement anymore,” lamented Medea Benjamin, co-founder of Codepink, one of the anti-war movement’s most visible organizations. “The issues have not changed very much. … Now we have a surge [in Afghanistan] that we would have been furious about under George Bush, yet it’s hard to mobilize people under Obama. We have the same anti -war movement and not the same passion.”

MoveOn.org, which produced a 2007 anti-war newspaper ad labeling Gen. David Petraeus “General Betray Us” for the surge in Iraq, has largely been silent, despite a similar U.S. strategy in Afghanistan with Petraeus at the helm. Cindy Sheehan, perhaps the most famous anti-war protester, believes the peace movement is over. And United for Peace and Justice — once the largest of three major anti-war coalitions — has practically dissolved. "

From my own links are anti-war protesters who are clearly still protesting and discussing protests. What you wrote suggested that everyone just stopped talking about it when that was clearly not the case.

I think "Trump Derangement Syndrome" would be better applied to the people who use that term.

2020-01-06 13:51:49

#509

uziq: Member; +493|3667

Dilbert_X wrote:
uziq wrote:
as with every crank, you take a germ of truth and then contaminate it with a virus of conspiratorial anti-semitic thinking.

it's pretty well-established that the top-level hawks in the neocon establishment wanted to invade/create regime change in 2-3 middle eastern states. i'm pretty sure even kissinger was advocating for it, way before rumsfeld/cheney took the reins.

as for 'deliberately allowing' bin laden to escape and everything else: i think you're attributing far too much to design. better to always assume that simple incompetence and chance gets in the way. there really is only a tiny degree of control and aforethought available in such matters.
Nope, I read Jim Mattis' book. He and the Marines had a solid plan to capture or kill Bin Laden in Afghanistan, he was actively prevented from doing so. He reckoned it was recognised to be the strategic blunder of the century.

I'm right on everything else. You, Jay and Larssen are trying and failing to find a pattern and motive in US behaviour in the ME, its simple, the US wants the whole region reduced to rubble so there is no-one who can threaten or contain Israel.

Obama wasn't part of the program, so he killed Bin Laden and contained Iran - inconvenient.

riiiight. the old 'obama wasn't part of the sinister project for israel' theory.

i suppose israel distancing themselves from trump, and netanyahu saying they 'should not be dragged into it' is only doubly proof of their sinister intentions?

slippery logic!

2020-01-06 13:53:25

#510

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,813|6321|eXtreme to the maX

Stage management, Israel wants Iran nuked.

Fuck Israel

2020-01-06 13:57:35

#511

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5573|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:
uziq wrote:
as with every crank, you take a germ of truth and then contaminate it with a virus of conspiratorial anti-semitic thinking.

it's pretty well-established that the top-level hawks in the neocon establishment wanted to invade/create regime change in 2-3 middle eastern states. i'm pretty sure even kissinger was advocating for it, way before rumsfeld/cheney took the reins.

as for 'deliberately allowing' bin laden to escape and everything else: i think you're attributing far too much to design. better to always assume that simple incompetence and chance gets in the way. there really is only a tiny degree of control and aforethought available in such matters.
Nope, I read Jim Mattis' book. He and the Marines had a solid plan to capture or kill Bin Laden in Afghanistan, he was actively prevented from doing so. He reckoned it was recognised to be the strategic blunder of the century.

I'm right on everything else. You, Jay and Larssen are trying and failing to find a pattern and motive in US behaviour in the ME, its simple, the US wants the whole region reduced to rubble so there is no-one who can threaten or contain Israel.

Obama wasn't part of the program, so he killed Bin Laden and contained Iran - inconvenient.

If you actually read Mattis' book the main takeaway was that we had no coherent goal in mind. The military was told to invade and when they asked what the political end state looked they heard crickets.

2020-01-06 14:01:09

#512

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +640|3935

The Iran-Israel conflict is a result of the Iran-U.S. conflict isn't it? The Iranians, like the neocons, see Israel as a western bridgehead into the Middle East. An Iran-Israel alliance would have actually made sense if Iran was solely focused on keeping the Arabs in line/down instead of dealing with our bullshit.

2020-01-06 14:34:35

#513

uziq: Member; +493|3667

also: lebanon.

2020-01-06 14:52:18

#514

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,813|6321|eXtreme to the maX

No, the Iran-US conflict is a result of the Iran-Israel conflict - which is a product of the Israel-Everyone Else conflict.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-01-06 14:56:37)

Fuck Israel

2020-01-06 14:55:34

#515

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,813|6321|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:
If you actually read Mattis' book the main takeaway was that we had no coherent goal in mind. The military was told to invade and when they asked what the political end state looked they heard crickets.

I did read the book, thanks, the military were given various goals, when they tried to achieve them they were instructed not to.

For example, they were instructed to kill or capture Bin Laden, when they had him in their sights they were told to pull back.

Same thing happened in Fallujah, they were on the point of winning then told to pull back.

There was a coherent goal - chaos and endless war, it was kept secret from the military high command and peons like you though.

Do you really think the US lied to the UN, lied to their allies, invaded two countries without any kind of plan?
It was the neo-con plan for the ME which had been written decades earlier, its still playing out, the destruction of Iran being the end-game.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-01-06 17:17:29)

Fuck Israel

2020-01-06 16:06:02

#516

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +640|3935

I hate retrospective books from people who haven't yet retired from public life. It's all fake news and PR.

2020-01-06 17:20:30

#517

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,813|6321|eXtreme to the maX

He has pretty well retired.

I liked his resignation letter to Trump.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/20/us/p … trump.html

Fuck Israel

2020-01-06 17:32:53

#518

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +640|3935

He still has bills to pay and isn't at death's door. He is still on T.V.

I am talking about being really in retirement/exile like Zhukov and Khrushchev.

2020-01-06 18:49:42

#519

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,813|6321|eXtreme to the maX

Yes, better that they're senile and their information is too old to be useful.

Fuck Israel

2020-01-07 03:55:09

#520

uziq: Member; +493|3667

35 people dead at a crush for soleimani's funeral. hundreds of thousands in the streets.

oh boy, big crowds! makes trump's rallies look like a shabby bluegrass band playing in the back of a dive bar.

and iran are going to retaliate bigly!

strange scenario where the world starts to feel more sympathy for iran than dead americans.

2020-01-07 04:35:02

#521

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +640|3935

I just hope all of the Americans that get killed are from red states. They always talk about being the "Real America" anyway.

2020-01-07 04:38:29

#522

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,813|6321|eXtreme to the maX

Iran has done everything asked of it, they offered to cooperate to deal with Al Qaeda, why does America hate them so much?

Fuck Israel

2020-01-07 08:23:07

#523

War Man: Australians are hermaphrodites.; +563|6929|Purplicious Wisconsin

SuperJail Warden wrote:
I just hope all of the Americans that get killed are from red states. They always talk about being the "Real America" anyway.

Fuck you, too

The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.

2020-01-07 08:35:15

#524

SuperJail Warden: Gone Forever; +640|3935

War Man wrote:
SuperJail Warden wrote:
I just hope all of the Americans that get killed are from red states. They always talk about being the "Real America" anyway.
Fuck you, too

Why don't you want to serve your country?

2020-01-07 08:58:43

#525

uziq: Member; +493|3667

War Man wrote:
SuperJail Warden wrote:
I just hope all of the Americans that get killed are from red states. They always talk about being the "Real America" anyway.
Fuck you, too

hope you're at the front of the queue to enlist. now it's your time!

iran don't even celebrate xmas!

a funny thing i keep seeing, from american commenters mostly, is this line that 'iranians are forced to be there' / 'they are forced to cry and mourn publicly under threat'. like do these people think that iran is north korea, or something? that every foe of america or nation with a different ideology is being coerced and forced to 'fake it'? 50 people have been crushed to death trying to attend a national hero's funeral, and americans in the comments of youtube videos are all like 'they have to be there', 'it's only attended by army personnel in plainclothes', etc. are they truly fucking mental?

how many moderate iranians are being radicalized by their double, and possibly soon to be tripled/quadrupled/quintupled national tragedy?

Last edited by uziq (2020-01-07 09:24:59)

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uziq wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

uziq wrote:

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

uziq wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

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SuperJail Warden wrote:

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