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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,966|3734|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

depends on where that average person is and how you define "raise them up".

During the great divergence, capital flowed from colonies to their imperialists, but information stayed within the imperialists.  The second phase was the start of globalization, where capital AND information began to flow back to areas geographically close to those former imperialists (think US -> Mexico, Germany -> Poland, etc). Now the great convergence means capital will continue to flow from the historically imperialist countries, but to the global south at large, with no geographic constraints due to the ease of technology and information transfer.

If you follow a hardcore free-market philosophy, there are no losers because a rising tide raises ALL ships. However, there's no denying that the western world is suffering in some ways due to the efflux of capital and now information, just as there's no denying that the global south (especially areas like SE Asia and Eastern Europe) are benefiting from this new convergence.
Yes, our comparative advantage is evaporating to an extent, and this is making us relatively poorer (but not poor by any means), but many millions of people across the globe have been lifted out of poverty because of trade. It's a bad thing to xenophobic nationalists, but it's a good thing for humanity in general.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,620|4482|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

There's only so much water in the sea Ken.
A rising tide in one place means a falling tide somewhere else.

Think of the sea as money, the moon as Chinese imperialist ambition, the ships are Chinese communist party apparatchiks.

(I think this is my best analogy ever)
plenty of water in the (soon to not be) ice caps.
Lets extend the analogy to America printing money then.
Your virus system is infected with windows. Please to be giving me your credit card details urgently
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,966|3734|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

There's only so much water in the sea Ken.
A rising tide in one place means a falling tide somewhere else.

Think of the sea as money, the moon as Chinese imperialist ambition, the ships are Chinese communist party apparatchiks.

(I think this is my best analogy ever)
The world economy is not zero sum. Wealth is not a fixed pie, it is always expanding. You can keep yours while another person gets wealthier.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,620|4482|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

depends on where that average person is and how you define "raise them up".

During the great divergence, capital flowed from colonies to their imperialists, but information stayed within the imperialists.  The second phase was the start of globalization, where capital AND information began to flow back to areas geographically close to those former imperialists (think US -> Mexico, Germany -> Poland, etc). Now the great convergence means capital will continue to flow from the historically imperialist countries, but to the global south at large, with no geographic constraints due to the ease of technology and information transfer.

If you follow a hardcore free-market philosophy, there are no losers because a rising tide raises ALL ships. However, there's no denying that the western world is suffering in some ways due to the efflux of capital and now information, just as there's no denying that the global south (especially areas like SE Asia and Eastern Europe) are benefiting from this new convergence.
Yes, our comparative advantage is evaporating to an extent, and this is making us relatively poorer (but not poor by any means), but many millions of people across the globe have been lifted out of poverty because of trade. It's a bad thing to xenophobic nationalists, but it's a good thing for humanity in general.
Your comparative advantage is that you print money. Soon you'll be a big farm again.
Your virus system is infected with windows. Please to be giving me your credit card details urgently
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,620|4482|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

There's only so much water in the sea Ken.
A rising tide in one place means a falling tide somewhere else.

Think of the sea as money, the moon as Chinese imperialist ambition, the ships are Chinese communist party apparatchiks.

(I think this is my best analogy ever)
The world economy is not zero sum. Wealth is not a fixed pie, it is always expanding. You can keep yours while another person gets wealthier.
Someone somewhere needs to create value out of thin air. At present the Chinese are doing it.
Your virus system is infected with windows. Please to be giving me your credit card details urgently
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,966|3734|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

depends on where that average person is and how you define "raise them up".

During the great divergence, capital flowed from colonies to their imperialists, but information stayed within the imperialists.  The second phase was the start of globalization, where capital AND information began to flow back to areas geographically close to those former imperialists (think US -> Mexico, Germany -> Poland, etc). Now the great convergence means capital will continue to flow from the historically imperialist countries, but to the global south at large, with no geographic constraints due to the ease of technology and information transfer.

If you follow a hardcore free-market philosophy, there are no losers because a rising tide raises ALL ships. However, there's no denying that the western world is suffering in some ways due to the efflux of capital and now information, just as there's no denying that the global south (especially areas like SE Asia and Eastern Europe) are benefiting from this new convergence.
Yes, our comparative advantage is evaporating to an extent, and this is making us relatively poorer (but not poor by any means), but many millions of people across the globe have been lifted out of poverty because of trade. It's a bad thing to xenophobic nationalists, but it's a good thing for humanity in general.
Your comparative advantage is that you print money. Soon you'll be a big farm again.
No doubt that being the reserve currency helps us. Our debt levels would've crushed our government already otherwise. Government debt has little to do with trade though, we still control the oil supply, technology, etc.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,620|4482|eXtreme to the maX
Pretty sure China is at least at parity in technology, you think you control oil supply?
The dollar will be redundant in a decade or so.
Your virus system is infected with windows. Please to be giving me your credit card details urgently
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,966|3734|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

There's only so much water in the sea Ken.
A rising tide in one place means a falling tide somewhere else.

Think of the sea as money, the moon as Chinese imperialist ambition, the ships are Chinese communist party apparatchiks.

(I think this is my best analogy ever)
The world economy is not zero sum. Wealth is not a fixed pie, it is always expanding. You can keep yours while another person gets wealthier.
Someone somewhere needs to create value out of thin air. At present the Chinese are doing it.
Value is created whenever work is performed. Unless we start doing things that drastically undermine our productivity like universalizing green projects with no payback or overregulation of business or crushing taxes, we'll keep expanding. If humanity starts moving back towards socialism you could then worry.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
SuperJail Warden
Member
+197|2096

Jay wrote:

but many millions of people across the globe have been lifted out of poverty because of trade.
Is that really a good thing? Chinese industrialization has made it more aggressive to its neighbors rather than less. They are polluting on a grand scale and increasingly are involved in African politics. Their money is helping fuel property asset bubbles in many major western cities.

Maybe it is genuinely better for the western world if other civilizations are weaker and poorer than us. Islamic and Chinese culture isn't any kinder than we are after all.
uziq
Member
+170|1828

Jay wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

depends on where that average person is and how you define "raise them up".

During the great divergence, capital flowed from colonies to their imperialists, but information stayed within the imperialists.  The second phase was the start of globalization, where capital AND information began to flow back to areas geographically close to those former imperialists (think US -> Mexico, Germany -> Poland, etc). Now the great convergence means capital will continue to flow from the historically imperialist countries, but to the global south at large, with no geographic constraints due to the ease of technology and information transfer.

If you follow a hardcore free-market philosophy, there are no losers because a rising tide raises ALL ships. However, there's no denying that the western world is suffering in some ways due to the efflux of capital and now information, just as there's no denying that the global south (especially areas like SE Asia and Eastern Europe) are benefiting from this new convergence.
Yes, our comparative advantage is evaporating to an extent, and this is making us relatively poorer (but not poor by any means), but many millions of people across the globe have been lifted out of poverty because of trade. It's a bad thing to xenophobic nationalists, but it's a good thing for humanity in general.
i don't think anyone is anti-trade, jay. no one is disputing that capitalism is a marvellous engine. i think objections are raised with the way that said generated wealth is distributed afterwards. that's the niggling detail, here.
uziq
Member
+170|1828

Jay wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:


The world economy is not zero sum. Wealth is not a fixed pie, it is always expanding. You can keep yours while another person gets wealthier.
Someone somewhere needs to create value out of thin air. At present the Chinese are doing it.
Value is created whenever work is performed. Unless we start doing things that drastically undermine our productivity like universalizing green projects with no payback or overregulation of business or crushing taxes, we'll keep expanding. If humanity starts moving back towards socialism you could then worry.
i agree. the main threat to our civilisation today is unprofitable green projects.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,966|3734|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

but many millions of people across the globe have been lifted out of poverty because of trade.
Is that really a good thing? Chinese industrialization has made it more aggressive to its neighbors rather than less. They are polluting on a grand scale and increasingly are involved in African politics. Their money is helping fuel property asset bubbles in many major western cities.

Maybe it is genuinely better for the western world if other civilizations are weaker and poorer than us. Islamic and Chinese culture isn't any kinder than we are after all.
Yes, I think it's better for humanity to be further away from mass famines. Yes, I think it's better when people of poor countries have alternatives to endless tribal warfare. China sucks because it has a totalitarian nominally communist government, not because it's people have become wealthier.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,620|4482|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

Value is created whenever work is performed.
These woolly definitions don't help.

If a footballer is paid $10m a year to run around after a ball is any real value created?
If $10m is spent on electricity to turn ore into aluminium has value been created?
How about $10m spent building wind turbines which deliver electricity for 30 years?

Using a faulty definition of value is a bad starting point.

I don't like 'value' being applied to ephemeral worthless things which don't then generate further value.
Your virus system is infected with windows. Please to be giving me your credit card details urgently
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+1,966|3734|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

Jay wrote:

Value is created whenever work is performed.
These woolly definitions don't help.

If a footballer is paid $10m a year to run around after a ball is any real value created?
If $10m is spent on electricity to turn ore into aluminium has value been created?
How about $10m spent building wind turbines which deliver electricity for 30 years?

Using a faulty definition of value is a bad starting point.

I don't like 'value' being applied to ephemeral worthless things which don't then generate further value.
So the intangible things like entertainment are worthless to you? That's a personal value judgement. Billions of other people disagree.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
uziq
Member
+170|1828
the whole thing is a moot point. most 'wealth' that western post-industrial societies generate isn't about work done (labour theory of value) or things produced (use value). it's pure exchange and speculation. wall street and the city of london do not make things. they speculate. to talk about 'work performed' makes you sound like david ricardo. that was 150 years ago.

Last edited by uziq (2019-05-24 07:54:05)

SuperJail Warden
Member
+197|2096
Sports players are overpaid. Sports is like the lowest form of entertainment right next to reality T.V. At least a T.V. drama or movie can get a message across or convey information. A good movie can provide decades of value and entertainment. Some guy getting a small ball to one side of a field isn't relevant to humanity beyond that season or whatever.
Larssen
Post limited. Contact Admin to Be Promoted.
+5|264
....this discussion isn't what I intended when I stated globalisation is changing things
SuperJail Warden
Member
+197|2096
Thread topics have always been jumping off points.
uziq
Member
+170|1828
remember when mods used to actually try and enforce things like staying on topic (and hence the creation of ee chats to contain all our bullshit). i mean on forums generally. honestly i miss the forum era. it was wild. lots of petty bureaucrats were bred in those places.

Last edited by uziq (2019-05-24 08:12:35)

KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,793|5008|949

Larssen wrote:

....this discussion isn't what I intended when I stated globalisation is changing things
it was a very insightful observation, truly.
SuperJail Warden
Member
+197|2096

uziq wrote:

remember when mods used to actually try and enforce things like staying on topic (and hence the creation of ee chats to contain all our bullshit). i mean on forums generally. honestly i miss the forum era. it was wild. lots of petty bureaucrats were bred in those places.
A nice nyt piece about online forums being in decline back in 2011

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2 … ards-past/
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,793|5008|949

i remember back when usenet forums were a thing, and news groups, and bbs. Things have been going downhill since pmail back in 1990. Or something.  Old farts reminiscing about the old days always makes me laugh, even when it's me doing it
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,620|4482|eXtreme to the maX

uziq wrote:

the whole thing is a moot point. most 'wealth' that western post-industrial societies generate isn't about work done (labour theory of value) or things produced (use value). it's pure exchange and speculation. wall street and the city of london do not make things. they speculate. to talk about 'work performed' makes you sound like david ricardo. that was 150 years ago.
Wealth and value are two different things. And yes Wall Street does not create value, it trades in the value created by others and skims wealth off the top.
Its also very easy to do work without creating real value, most people do it.

So many people confuse wealth transfer with value creation, this is the reason most economies are in overhang and debt.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-05-24 16:01:46)

Your virus system is infected with windows. Please to be giving me your credit card details urgently
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,620|4482|eXtreme to the maX
Back on topic

https://i.imgur.com/IDkw3TZ.jpg

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2019-05-24 15:23:00)

Your virus system is infected with windows. Please to be giving me your credit card details urgently
SuperJail Warden
Member
+197|2096

Dilbert_X wrote:

Back on topic

TODO: FIX GAL IMAGES
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