QFTMarconius wrote:
It's no one's business to legislate on. You violate the privacy rights of the mother if you start assigning legalities to fetuses.
There are many instances when abortions are necessary, and there are many instances where abortions might seem morally wrong. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. Stop trying to legislate morality.
Isn't MORALITY the basis of ALL legislation??? Whats right and what is wrong defined by a moral compass??ghettoperson wrote:
QFTMarconius wrote:
It's no one's business to legislate on. You violate the privacy rights of the mother if you start assigning legalities to fetuses.
There are many instances when abortions are necessary, and there are many instances where abortions might seem morally wrong. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. Stop trying to legislate morality.
Morality is not universal. Each has their code of morals and ethics.
Yes but the majority of this thread seems to be directed to abortion in AMERICA by the posters, that is why a was taking it anyway. So it is OUR moral compas that I am referring to.CameronPoe wrote:
Morality is not universal. Each has their code of morals and ethics.
Many people in America believe it is morally acceptable to allow abortions to occur. There is no one moral compass that applies to each and every INDIVIDUAL human being in America.lowing wrote:
Yes but the majority of this thread seems to be directed to abortion in AMERICA by the posters, that is why a was taking it anyway. So it is OUR moral compas that I am referring to.CameronPoe wrote:
Morality is not universal. Each has their code of morals and ethics.
Yeah there is, we have established that stealing is morally wrong in our country, although there might be people who don't see a problem with it.CameronPoe wrote:
Many people in America believe it is morally acceptable to allow abortions to occur. There is no one moral compass that applies to each and every INDIVIDUAL human being in America.lowing wrote:
Yes but the majority of this thread seems to be directed to abortion in AMERICA by the posters, that is why a was taking it anyway. So it is OUR moral compas that I am referring to.CameronPoe wrote:
Morality is not universal. Each has their code of morals and ethics.
The thing is that the moral MAJORITY believe stealing is wrong, hence the reason legislation drawn up against stealing has been passed. THe legislation is common to all but the moral code is still particular to the individual.lowing wrote:
Yeah there is, we have established that stealing is morally wrong in our country, although there might be people who don't see a problem with it.CameronPoe wrote:
Many people in America believe it is morally acceptable to allow abortions to occur. There is no one moral compass that applies to each and every INDIVIDUAL human being in America.lowing wrote:
Yes but the majority of this thread seems to be directed to abortion in AMERICA by the posters, that is why a was taking it anyway. So it is OUR moral compas that I am referring to.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-11-04 06:07:27)
that is why we are governed in the first place is it not??CameronPoe wrote:
The thing is that the moral MAJORITY believe stealing is wrong, hence the reason legislation drawn up against stealing has been passed. THe legislation is common to all but the moral code is still particular to the individual.lowing wrote:
Yeah there is, we have established that stealing is morally wrong in our country, although there might be people who don't see a problem with it.CameronPoe wrote:
Many people in America believe it is morally acceptable to allow abortions to occur. There is no one moral compass that applies to each and every INDIVIDUAL human being in America.
Abortion is legal that is a fact. No one is desputing that. The argument lies into whether or not it should be.
If one side can convince the other to win a majority of the moral opinion, things will change to their favor, and that is really what all of this is about.
Of course - but as it stands now the prevailing sentiment is that abortion should be legal (in America, in Ireland it's illegal).lowing wrote:
that is why we are governed in the first place is it not??
Abortion is legal that is a fact. No one is desputing that. The argument lies into whether or not it should be.
If one side can convince the other to win a majority of the moral opinion, things will change to their favor, and that is really what all of this is about.
Let me ask this, cuz I didn't know abortion was illegal in Ireland...........Do you have problems with women getting abortions under unsafe conditions, or do they go to another country to have it done??.....How is your society handling this. It seems to be an argument here to keep abortion legal so women don't go underground to do it.CameronPoe wrote:
Of course - but as it stands now the prevailing sentiment is that abortion should be legal (in America, in Ireland it's illegal).lowing wrote:
that is why we are governed in the first place is it not??
Abortion is legal that is a fact. No one is desputing that. The argument lies into whether or not it should be.
If one side can convince the other to win a majority of the moral opinion, things will change to their favor, and that is really what all of this is about.
They go to another country. Abortion is abhorred here pretty much - major taboo.lowing wrote:
Let me ask this, cuz I didn't know abortion was illegal in Ireland...........Do you have problems with women getting abortions under unsafe conditions, or do they go to another country to have it done??.....How is your society handling this. It seems to be an argument here to keep abortion legal so women don't go underground to do it.CameronPoe wrote:
Of course - but as it stands now the prevailing sentiment is that abortion should be legal (in America, in Ireland it's illegal).lowing wrote:
that is why we are governed in the first place is it not??
Abortion is legal that is a fact. No one is desputing that. The argument lies into whether or not it should be.
If one side can convince the other to win a majority of the moral opinion, things will change to their favor, and that is really what all of this is about.
What about England??............CameronPoe wrote:
They go to another country. Abortion is abhorred here pretty much - major taboo.lowing wrote:
Let me ask this, cuz I didn't know abortion was illegal in Ireland...........Do you have problems with women getting abortions under unsafe conditions, or do they go to another country to have it done??.....How is your society handling this. It seems to be an argument here to keep abortion legal so women don't go underground to do it.CameronPoe wrote:
Of course - but as it stands now the prevailing sentiment is that abortion should be legal (in America, in Ireland it's illegal).
Where do the women usually go to have it done??
They usually travel to the UK yeah - Liverpool in western England. I think it's still illegal in Northern Ireland so it's not like Irish women can just get a taxi over the border for an abortion. There was controversy at one point when an 'abortion boat' anchored in international waters off the coast to facilitate Irish women seeking abortions.lowing wrote:
What about England??............CameronPoe wrote:
They go to another country. Abortion is abhorred here pretty much - major taboo.lowing wrote:
Let me ask this, cuz I didn't know abortion was illegal in Ireland...........Do you have problems with women getting abortions under unsafe conditions, or do they go to another country to have it done??.....How is your society handling this. It seems to be an argument here to keep abortion legal so women don't go underground to do it.
Where do the women usually go to have it done??
I didn't realise that abortion was illegal in Ireland. That's shocking!CameronPoe wrote:
Of course - but as it stands now the prevailing sentiment is that abortion should be legal (in America, in Ireland it's illegal).lowing wrote:
that is why we are governed in the first place is it not??
Abortion is legal that is a fact. No one is desputing that. The argument lies into whether or not it should be.
If one side can convince the other to win a majority of the moral opinion, things will change to their favor, and that is really what all of this is about.
We only legalised divorce in 1997.Bertster7 wrote:
I didn't realise that abortion was illegal in Ireland. That's shocking!
Actually, yes, any person that is EDUCATED on the matter can tell you exactly what it is like to walk on the moon - it's a bit like walking under water.lowing wrote:
no, it gives him a jaded view point. Marconious may know about the moon, but since he has never been there he is QUALIFIED to tell me what it feels like to BE there.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.lowing wrote:
You do not have children, obviously, therefore, not qualified to have an educated opinion.
Every human is qualified to have an educated opinion, because it is just that - EDUCATED.
Marconius may or may not have children, either way, it is largely irrelevent, and in fact not having children probably gives him a more objective viewpoint, because parents cannot help but think "would I not want have had my living son/daughter(s) in this world?" after they've developed a parental bond with their child(ren).
Maybe I need to remind you what EDUCATE means (cue dictionary.com quote):
dictionary.com wrote:
ed‧u‧cate /ˈɛdʒʊˌkeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ej-oo-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -cat‧ed, -cat‧ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to develop the faculties and powers of (a person) by teaching, instruction, or schooling.
2. to qualify by instruction or training for a particular calling, practice, etc.; train: to educate someone for law.
3. to provide schooling or training for; send to school.
4. to develop or train (the ear, taste, etc.): to educate one's palate to appreciate fine food.
5. to inform: to educate oneself about the best course of action.
–verb (used without object)
6. to educate a person or group: A television program that educates can also entertain.
[Origin: 1580–90; < L ēducātus brought up, taught (ptp. of ēducāre), equiv. to ē- e- + -duc- lead + -ātus -ate1]
—Synonyms 1. instruct, school, drill, indoctrinate. See teach.
Yes, it's called subjectivity (cue another dictionary.com quote (or two)):lowing wrote:
SOmething happens to a (responsible) person who is becomes a parent.
I'm sorry, but, when one has children one actually becomes less able to offer an objective opinion on subjects such as abortion.dictionary.com wrote:
sub‧jec‧tiv‧i‧ty /ˌsʌbdʒɛkˈtɪvɪti/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhb-jek-tiv-i-tee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ties for 2.
1. the state or quality of being subjective; subjectiveness.
2. a subjective thought or idea.
3. intentness on internal thoughts.
4. internal reality.
sub‧jec‧tive /səbˈdʒɛktɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhb-jek-tiv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective).
2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.
4. Philosophy. relating to or of the nature of an object as it is known in the mind as distinct from a thing in itself.
5. relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience.
6. pertaining to the subject or substance in which attributes inhere; essential.
7. Grammar.
a. pertaining to or constituting the subject of a sentence.
b. (in English and certain other languages) noting a case specialized for that use, as He in He hit the ball.
c. similar to such a case in meaning. Compare nominative.
8. Obsolete. characteristic of a political subject; submissive.
[Origin: 1400–50; late ME: pertaining to a subject of a ruler < L subjectīvus; see subject, -ive]
—Related forms
sub‧jec‧tive‧ly, adverb
sub‧jec‧tive‧ness, noun
—Synonyms 1. mental. 6. substantial, inherent.
(could whoever sent me the following karma's please let me know who they are (by PM is fine, if you want))
Yesterday 20:26:35 +1 The real death toll Having some fucking common sense
Yesterday 20:14:26 +1 The real death toll i like you
Yesterday 20:26:35 +1 The real death toll Having some fucking common sense
Yesterday 20:14:26 +1 The real death toll i like you
As I've discussed with Stingray in another thread, morality is a tricky thing.lowing wrote:
Isn't MORALITY the basis of ALL legislation??? Whats right and what is wrong defined by a moral compass??ghettoperson wrote:
QFTMarconius wrote:
It's no one's business to legislate on. You violate the privacy rights of the mother if you start assigning legalities to fetuses.
There are many instances when abortions are necessary, and there are many instances where abortions might seem morally wrong. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. Stop trying to legislate morality.
On the one hand, I agree with Marconius. I believe that legislating morality is often a pursuit in futility. The best example of this was Prohibition. Making alcohol illegal was intended to decrease alcoholism and domestic abuse, but in the end, it mostly increased the power and profits of the Italian mob.
On the other hand, yes, law is effectively the universal code of ethics within a society. Because we live in a free society that allows any religion to be followed, law takes on an increased importance. Churches may set personal standards of morality, but law affects everyone's morality. Understandably, some people believe that abortion is something that should be termed as "universally wrong."
While I understand where the pro-life crowd is coming from, I think their intentions outweigh their judgment on this issue. Banning abortion given the current circumstances would seem to create more problems than solve. Ideally, I'd prefer this issue to be a state one, so that the federal government can focus on more nationally relevant issues like foreign policy.
What's socially acceptable in Utah is very different from what's socially acceptable in Massachusetts. As a result, each state seems to have its own outlook on abortion. Ideally, each state should have their own rulings on abortion, and with the second trimester, they do. Roe vs. Wade only affects the first trimester, and Bush's recent ban on "partial birth" abortions only affects the third trimester. In effect, each state can decide what rules apply to the second trimester. I'd prefer the federal government have no connection to the issue at all, but it's a little late for that....
I'm all in for abortion. Banning it is like ending a womans life to save an ant...
We don't need more people on this planet, and we definately don't need more children who have to live a horrible childhood because they're not wanted!
Of course there shouldn't be such cases that a girl gets pregnant with out wanting to, there is protection out there. Condoms anyone?
Such a taboo to talk about protection in many countries...
If you get raped or otherwise bregnant against your own will, you should get an abortion no matter if someone thinks it's wrong to the poor fetus...
We don't need more people on this planet, and we definately don't need more children who have to live a horrible childhood because they're not wanted!
Of course there shouldn't be such cases that a girl gets pregnant with out wanting to, there is protection out there. Condoms anyone?
Such a taboo to talk about protection in many countries...
If you get raped or otherwise bregnant against your own will, you should get an abortion no matter if someone thinks it's wrong to the poor fetus...
That's my major problem with banning it as well. Why should a woman be forced to give birth to a child that she was given by being raped? Or whilst drunk at a party or something? Yes for the second one to a certain extent that was her fault, but killing a fetus is far more preferable than bring up a child whom no one cares about and is not wanted, and not cared about properly.Gawwad wrote:
I'm all in for abortion. Banning it is like ending a womans life to save an ant...
We don't need more people on this planet, and we definately don't need more children who have to live a horrible childhood because they're not wanted!
Of course there shouldn't be such cases that a girl gets pregnant with out wanting to, there is protection out there. Condoms anyone?
Such a taboo to talk about protection in many countries...
If you get raped or otherwise bregnant against your own will, you should get an abortion no matter if someone thinks it's wrong to the poor fetus...
I love how I make a very good point on this subject and you are the only one to comment on it...IRONCHEF wrote:
This "theory" is a fun one to see people quote, especially the spinning of it towards "the postman" type world as you did.cpt.fass1 wrote:
If the populatioin keeps growing the way it is, it will turn into chaos. There will not be enough food, and natural resources to support the population. So it will turn into a postman type world..
People have been stabbing at population control for many hundreds of years.
I endorse abortions under extreme circumstance, rape, medical, etc....I have to draw the line at using abortion as birth control. If you don't want to be pregnant, take the morning after pill.Gawwad wrote:
I'm all in for abortion. Banning it is like ending a womans life to save an ant...
We don't need more people on this planet, and we definately don't need more children who have to live a horrible childhood because they're not wanted!
Of course there shouldn't be such cases that a girl gets pregnant with out wanting to, there is protection out there. Condoms anyone?
Such a taboo to talk about protection in many countries...
If you get raped or otherwise bregnant against your own will, you should get an abortion no matter if someone thinks it's wrong to the poor fetus...
But if you want to ban abortions, then I don't really think it can be a circumstance thing. So if someone wants an abortion, they have to fill out some forms, and come up with a convincing story that they didn't want to get pregnant, or that they were forced? All that's going to happen then is a lot more innocent people will get accused of rape, because the mother wants to have an abortion.lowing wrote:
I endorse abortions under extreme circumstance, rape, medical, etc....I have to draw the line at using abortion as birth control. If you don't want to be pregnant, take the morning after pill.Gawwad wrote:
I'm all in for abortion. Banning it is like ending a womans life to save an ant...
We don't need more people on this planet, and we definately don't need more children who have to live a horrible childhood because they're not wanted!
Of course there shouldn't be such cases that a girl gets pregnant with out wanting to, there is protection out there. Condoms anyone?
Such a taboo to talk about protection in many countries...
If you get raped or otherwise bregnant against your own will, you should get an abortion no matter if someone thinks it's wrong to the poor fetus...
Never thought of that, I am sure that would be an issue that would raise its ugly head.ghettoperson wrote:
But if you want to ban abortions, then I don't really think it can be a circumstance thing. So if someone wants an abortion, they have to fill out some forms, and come up with a convincing story that they didn't want to get pregnant, or that they were forced? All that's going to happen then is a lot more innocent people will get accused of rape, because the mother wants to have an abortion.lowing wrote:
I endorse abortions under extreme circumstance, rape, medical, etc....I have to draw the line at using abortion as birth control. If you don't want to be pregnant, take the morning after pill.Gawwad wrote:
I'm all in for abortion. Banning it is like ending a womans life to save an ant...
We don't need more people on this planet, and we definately don't need more children who have to live a horrible childhood because they're not wanted!
Of course there shouldn't be such cases that a girl gets pregnant with out wanting to, there is protection out there. Condoms anyone?
Such a taboo to talk about protection in many countries...
If you get raped or otherwise bregnant against your own will, you should get an abortion no matter if someone thinks it's wrong to the poor fetus...
<NOT sarcasm>
Last edited by lowing (2006-11-05 05:17:02)
Good lord... that's an awful possibility. Thanks for mentioning it....ghettoperson wrote:
But if you want to ban abortions, then I don't really think it can be a circumstance thing. So if someone wants an abortion, they have to fill out some forms, and come up with a convincing story that they didn't want to get pregnant, or that they were forced? All that's going to happen then is a lot more innocent people will get accused of rape, because the mother wants to have an abortion.lowing wrote:
I endorse abortions under extreme circumstance, rape, medical, etc....I have to draw the line at using abortion as birth control. If you don't want to be pregnant, take the morning after pill.Gawwad wrote:
I'm all in for abortion. Banning it is like ending a womans life to save an ant...
We don't need more people on this planet, and we definately don't need more children who have to live a horrible childhood because they're not wanted!
Of course there shouldn't be such cases that a girl gets pregnant with out wanting to, there is protection out there. Condoms anyone?
Such a taboo to talk about protection in many countries...
If you get raped or otherwise bregnant against your own will, you should get an abortion no matter if someone thinks it's wrong to the poor fetus...